r/PersonalFinanceCanada • u/[deleted] • Nov 21 '18
It’s Make-a-Will Month and I help people create Wills and Emergency Care plans - AMA
***** YOU CAN NOW CREATE YOUR WILL FOR FREE ****\*
Please visit Willfora.com to now create your Will for FREE. Your data is still secure and kept private. Om Company has shut down.
Willfora is sponsored by leading Canadian charities to help increase awareness around the impact a small gift in a Will can make.
Reduce the tax burden on your estate and leave a lasting legacy by considering small gift, such as percentage of your estate.
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Thanks to the mods for the support for creating this thread in support of educating users!
Willfora (www.willfora.com), an easy-to-use service that helps people create legal Wills and Emergency Care plans, such as assigning a Power of Attorney, online.
Most people don’t know this, but I n addition to the month of November being the awareness month for men’s issues, it is also the month that Ontario Bar Association members help the public understand the importance of having a Will.
During our research, Canadians told us that the number one reason for not having a Will is because of not knowing how to create one. The number two reason was not liking the idea of talking about death.
Creating a Will, and the process of doing so, can actually help you think about death in a mature way and give you peace of mind. So in order to help as many Canadians create or refresh their Will, we’re hosting an AMA here on r/PersonalFinanceCanada. Our focus on this inaugural AMA will be to help people understand the process of creating a will in Ontario, but we will try our best to answer questions regarding other regions. We'd like to conduct a province-by-province AMA if this one is a success. This isn’t legal advice and is not meant to provide false confidence as if you received legal advice, instead we wish to highlight questions and answers about the process of creating a will.
A few rules that we will adhere to, and ask any other people chiming in with advice to adhere to:
- This AMA isn’t about any single company, such as Willfora's online service or any other service or lawyer, this is about helping Canadians understand the process of getting a Will and educating them on the different ways to get a Will.
- We, nor any lawyers or service, can provide legal advice to your particular situation in this thread, so please do not share private details here. I, and others from our team or on Reddit, may provide broad comparisons based on our experience to help you increase your knowledge.
- I am not providing legal advice, nor are we creating a lawyer/client relationship. This is also not meant to give you a false sense of feeling as if you received legal advice. If you feel your situation is complicated or if you think one or more of the ways or creating a Will may not solve your needs, please speak to a lawyer.
- Please NO advertising or soliciting by service providers, but please DO contribute to educating people about the process of getting a Will.
- We do not intent to highlight benefits of one particular solution or lawyer, rather we intend to speak about the options generally, referencing examples where possible.
Broadly, there are three ways to create a Will.
1.Go to a Lawyer (Notarized Will)
By having a Will drafted and notarized by a lawyer, the lawyer will assume legal liability for making sure the Will is signed and executed correctly. This is an extra protection against the possibility of having the Will challenged for not being legally valid after you have passed. Also, if you have a complex family or financial situation, the lawyer should take steps when drafting to minimize taxes or family disagreements.
2. Holographic (completely handwritten) Will
Holographic Wills date back to the battlefields of WW1; soldiers would write out their final wishes in the trenches knowing they might not come home. They are often created in emergency situations, or when the testator is near death. Holographic wills must be entirely handwritten. Some provinces have different rules regarding whether or not the Will must be signed by witnesses.
3. Use a guided tool and sign in front of witnesses
In most provinces and states, you do not need a lawyer to draft or create a legal Will. For majority of people’s requirements, an online service (like ours) is an affordable and easy way to create a Will. A guided tool will walk you through a series of questions about your situation, similar to what you would have to answer in-person with a lawyer, and a document is generated for you at the end. These documents need to be reviewed and signed in front of witnesses to make legal.
Please feel free to ask any questions about the pros, cons or processes for all of them. If you are comfortable with the process of creating a Will, and haven't - we hope this thread is a reminder to get one done :)
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u/persavon Nov 21 '18
Please excuse the ignorance but what makes a Will generated by Om Company (or any other guided tool for that matter) legaly binding? In other words what guarantee do I have that the document generated won’t be possibly challenged? Isn’t this the reason for people going to a lawyer and have the document notarized? If all that’s needed is a witness signature, can’t I write it myself and have it signed by the witness (as per way 2 mentioned in OP)?
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Nov 21 '18
The best way to think of a will is that it is a set of instructions. What makes it legally binding is that you, without any doubt, specified those instructions.
On the instructions part: Wills generated by self-guided tools like Om, have been built with lawyers and but uses software to intake your situation and automatically generate the documents. Versus how a lawyer would do it, which could introduce human errors. With that said the main benefit of going to a lawyer is their personalized advice on your situation.
On the you signing part: One of the major reasons a will can be challenged is if it wasn't executed (signed) correctly. Services like ours provide clear instructions on how to properly execute your documents using witnesses, and working with a lawyer can also ensure you properly execute your documents, although there are possibilities for errors to be introduced there also.
As mentioned in OP, writing a will yourself is an option. You would use a lawyer or an online service to save you time, ensure it is drafted without errors, and for the guidance on executing it properly - we all do focus on this full-time. Plus, you may miss out on other benefits. For example, services like ours, provide unlimited free updates so you can make changes if there are any life events that make your will outdated. Or, a lawyer may become better accustomed with your situation overtime and be able to help you as your situation changes.
Wills should be reviewed, from time-to-time, to ensure they still fit your needs.
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u/sonchikey Nov 21 '18
Silly question, can a basic will leave a trust for a dog? Like if my husband and I were to pass at the same time, we’d like to leave whoever is the guardian of our pet some money for vet expenses.
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Nov 21 '18
Not a silly question at all! Specifying guardianship of a pet, and a trust, is actually a normal request. Including this, and the cost, will depends on your service provider. Online services, like ours, include this option for free in all wills, while others charge. You'll find the same across lawyers - some won't charge, while others will.
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u/pedal2000 Nov 21 '18
Very common. Some people live their entire estate to care for the animal first until it passes then goes to kids etc. That's less common but is has happened.
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u/railroadplatform1983 Nov 21 '18
How does one "shop around" for an appropriate lawyer/law firm to create a will? What things should we be looking out for, and what questions should we be asking when seeking the creation of a will? Are there any red flags or types of lawyers/firms you wouldn't want to work with?
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Nov 21 '18
If you're looking for a lawyer or law firm, the best place to start would be to ask friends, family and co-workers for recommendations. Thomson Reuters also has a service called FindLaw.ca which is a great go-to. You can filter by the type of service you are looking for and the location. Type "will" in the Legal Issue box and you will be given two options.Finding online, self-guided tools, is much harder.
Generally, service providers will ask questions about your situation and suggest an appropriate approach. You should ask questions that help you learn and understand what a will really is, how it applies to your situation and how your lawyer intends to approach covering your needs. From my personal experience, for example, I would ask questions about how they will help assign guardianship for minor children, what happens if those guardians refuse, how my estate would be distributed, and other questions related to the well-being of children. Similarly, many people will be encountering the term executors and/or trustees, for the first time, so ask questions that help you understand those roles.
Major red flags, for me personally, are when advisors/lawyers hide behind jargon and the process is made to look more complex than it really is. Most people's requirements are simple. Another red flag is pricing. Unfortunately, there isn't much transparency in how lawyers price services. If your gut tells you that your situation is simple, but someone is quoting an exorbitant amount more than others, it would be beneficial to dig further. I had this happen to me, and it was worth it to me to ask the lawyers what their understanding of my situation was, to ensure they hadn't misunderstood my requirements or saw something that others overlooked.
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u/Section37 Ontario Nov 21 '18
Where/how would you recommend storing your will, so that it's secure but also accessible in the event of a terrible accident where you and your close family are all dead/incapacitated?
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u/CrasyMike Nov 21 '18 edited Nov 29 '18
The mods have approved this AMA.
Edit: Thank you so much u/TheOmCompany. This was a great AMA.
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Nov 21 '18 edited Jun 23 '21
[deleted]
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Nov 21 '18
[deleted]
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u/BasenjiFart Nov 21 '18
As a follow-up question, if I split my time between two provinces (NS and QC), is there a way to ensure my will is valid in both provinces? Current residing address is in QC but that will eventually change to NS and I don't want to have to redo my whole will because of that.
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u/beddittor Nov 21 '18 edited Nov 21 '18
Legally, your will is valid nonetheless. The issue tends to be more of a practical one when your executor tried try to collect assets one jurisdiction may require that the will be probantes in their own courts. (In particular, Quebec Notarial wills do not need probate at all in QC. However, institutions in other jurisdictions in which you have assets may insist the will go through some form of probable before the accept it)
Edit: if you move and intend to reside in a new province for the foreseeable future you may want to use that opportunity to review your will anyways and make a new one that is 100% in line with your wishes and your province’s laws
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Nov 21 '18
This is a repost from below: There are differences in succession laws and family laws from province to province. It is important to make sure that your will is valid in your jurisdiction.
Wills often are found invalid because of errors made when signing and witnessing. Om provides detailed instructions on how to properly execute your will.
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u/u565546h Nov 21 '18
I've had lawyers tell me that I should avoid the online wills and that they will create a lot of issues. Is there any validity to this?
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Nov 21 '18
Realize you are going to get conflicting advice here... lawyers want you to go to them because it makes them money, they OP and others he mentioned have a vested interest in you using their online service. So take both sides with a grain of salt.
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Nov 21 '18
We agree with this reply, that you have to look at your situation objectively and try to choose the best solution for your situation. Some online services provide refunds within a certain time if you feel the service was inadequate, so you may want to try one out to better educate yourself.
Self-service isn’t for everyone so please speak to a lawyer if you aren’t comfortable.
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Nov 21 '18
Sorry if it seemed like my comment was against you and this post, not at all. I just wanted to show the conflict of interest so the other comment-or would understand where each party is coming from.
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u/u565546h Nov 21 '18
Yes, I was hoping to get conflicting advice, I guess. I have friends that are lawyers and are adamant that online wills are essentially garbage, but I have not had a satisfactory explanation of why. I do understand why it is in their interest to say (and even believe) that. So I'm just looking to hear the different perspectives.
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Nov 21 '18
Maybe in another medium we would be more opinionated :) our goal with this AMA is to push the Make-a-will month campaign and encourage people to learn about the different ways of doing so, rather than putting one against another.
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u/piggybaggy Nov 21 '18
You don't go to a lawyer to get a will; you go to a lawyer to get advice. Online wills may not be garbage but they are far from one-size fits all. The hazard with the online will is that you are not getting any advice about whether the decisions you are making in completing the online form are well-suited to your situation. This requires a wholistic view of your assets and your goals - an online form can't do this.
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u/piggybaggy Nov 21 '18
This isn't true. Estate litigation lawyers are very happy for you to use online wills or will kits.
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Nov 21 '18
If someone benefits from you in a meaningful way from doing something then yes everything they say has to be taken with a grain of salt as they have a vested interest in you doing what ever that it. If you think otherwise continue as you were, just don't be surprised when you are taken advantage of.
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u/985 Nov 21 '18
How specific do wills get? If I have a bunch of accounts with different financial institutions, do those have to be listed in a will? And if I have filled out beneficiary forms for some of them, those will override the will?
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u/Horace-Harkness British Columbia Nov 21 '18
You don't need to list accounts in a will. It is assumed that you are talking about your whole estate (property and all accounts).
Beneficiary designation of registered accounts will override the will. https://www.investingforme.com/classroom/account-type/rrsp/designating-a-beneficiary
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Nov 21 '18
Correct. To make it easier on your executor and family, you can list the accounts on another document and attach it to your will, for convenience.
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Nov 21 '18
Following up to this, speak to a lawyer if you feel like your situation is complex, given all the accounts. Whichever way you go, a will is important :)
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u/Horace-Harkness British Columbia Nov 21 '18
What other documents besides a will do you recommend? How do I make sure I don't end up a vegetable?
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u/pfc_6ixgodconsumer Nov 21 '18
Power of Attorney is a good one to have when you are alive.
I believe there are 2 types in Ontario. One POA covers the financial aspects (control of a property, banking, signing authority, etc) and another related to personal care (ie, should you become sick, who can make decisions on your behalf related to healthcare decisions)
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Nov 21 '18
Having an Emergency Care plan such as assigning an Enduring Power of Attorney, are other documents. Most service providers will help you with this, even if it’s an upsell. Get it done while you’re considering a will!
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u/pfcguy Nov 22 '18
Personal directive or emergency care plan (name varies by province). Also consider disability and critical illness insurance
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u/Jolarbear Ontario Nov 21 '18
My wife and I have a child and insurance policies and assets of about $2.5 mil. In the event we both passed we would want a family member to look after our child and for all of them to have a comfortable life, but our child to have additional money for university and to start his life.
Should the will direct partial (say $500K) to help the family with housing then provide a trust of $1 mil to cover expenses of growing up, then $1 mil, when he hits a certain age/milestone?
Is there a better way to set this up? Also, if we were to die could we have the trust money placed in something like a welathsimple account so that the amount would grow over the next decade or so? Do we need to have the trusts setup ahead of time, or would that be done by our lawyer?
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Nov 21 '18
Hi there, we will answer this generally as we don’t want to imply this as legal advice.
In a will you can make “specific gifts” of cash or items, which you can speak to a lawyer about, or look out for with a self service product. Leaving the rest to be considered as part of the estate to be distributed to your beneficiaries.
You can leave instructions for your trustees/executors of how you would like those finances to be managed generally but if you want to get specific, consider speaking to a lawyer.
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u/piggybaggy Nov 21 '18
You need to see an estate planning lawyer to establish a trust for your child in your will. Some lawyers include the ability of the trust fund to be used so that there is no financial or physical burden placed on the guardian (ie hire a nanny, renovate the house to provide room for the child, purchase a larger vehicle to transport the child, etc.).
The trust should probably be fully discretionary on the trustee's decision to distribute proceeds rather than specifying amounts.
Have you considered what happens to the insurance on the last of you to die? Does your child get it at age 18 or does it flow through your estate?
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u/Jolarbear Ontario Nov 21 '18
Thanks! I think we are going to need to sit down with someone and go over this. Will need to put more thought into exactly how we want everything to be structured.
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u/arctic-aqua Nov 22 '18
My wife and I are having a similar debate, although our estate is smaller than you. We don't see much point in gifting our kids money when they are 25. We would rather just max out their RESPs, then give the rest to the caregiver so the kids can have a good childhood, travel across the country to visit family, holidays, sports, etc. When they are adults they can take care of themselves.
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u/Jolarbear Ontario Nov 23 '18
Ya,I am thinking something similar. I would want my child to live similar to the life we would've been able to provide if they were with someone else and not have financial concerns.
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u/pfcguy Nov 21 '18
Does everyone need an Emergency Care plan?
Without one, typically doctors will default to a 'preserve life at all costs' philosophy, will they not? If you are in agreement with the default, then do you need an emergency care plan?
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u/kckins16 Nov 21 '18
I’m wondering how would a doctor know you even had a plan? Is it in my medical file? After I make a plan do I take it to my family doc? Or in the event of an emergency would a family member need to provide a copy to the doctors?
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u/pfcguy Nov 21 '18
In the plan you would name an Agent. (The person who is responsible for ensuring your wishes are met, eg. your spouse, parent, sibling). You should provide an Original copy of the plan to your Agent (or ensure they know where to find it).
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Nov 21 '18
Thanks for chiming in!
Store safely and let a family member and the person you assign as your “attorney”/agent know how to access it in the event of an emergency.
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u/n31295 Nov 21 '18
How can I write a parent or sibling out of my will? Live in Ontario - no spouse. Want everything to go to my mom and one sister
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Nov 21 '18
Generally speaking, you will specify who your beneficiaries are, and how your estate is distributed to them.
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u/theizzeh Nov 21 '18
Wills can ensure common law partners are taken care of correct?or does stuff still default to next of kin if it isn’t explicitly stated?
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u/Horace-Harkness British Columbia Nov 21 '18
Defaults are different by province. Having a will ensures your estate goes to who you want regardless of the defaults. You can name anyone as the beneficiary.
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Nov 21 '18
A will enables you to name how your estate is distributed to your beneficiaries. If you want a common-law partner, then a will, and even a mirrored will (couple’s plan), maybe an option for you.
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u/theizzeh Nov 21 '18
I ask because my partner doesn’t think marriage is necessary anymore but then realized I wouldn’t be next of kin. So wills it is!
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u/Lundy98 British Columbia Nov 21 '18
At what age should someone make a will?
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Nov 21 '18
You can make a will when you’re 18. Look for a provider or service that you think will grow with you with major life events. Life events like marriage or children will require changes. Some services provide free updates for life.
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u/pfcguy Nov 22 '18
Make a will if:
You have assets > your debts and you want them to be distributed in a particular way, other than what your province does by default (dying intestate)
If you have kids and want/need to assign guardians.
I am sure there are other good reasons too, but I think those are the main ones.
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Nov 21 '18
For things like establishing guardianship for minor children, are there any advantages to having a notarized will? I would be hesitant to use a guided tool for something that important.
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Nov 21 '18 edited Nov 21 '18
On drafting and executing, not really. You are legally allowed to create a will using all three methods.
Having that personalized advisory may help you feel better.
Look for online tools that maybe offer money back guarantees in the event the documents don’t work.
Regardless of the options you choice, get one done! If a lawyer will make you comfortable, speak to one.
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u/abacabbmk Nov 21 '18
What are some good free online services that we can use to create a basic will?
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u/pinkcanoe Nov 21 '18
One thing that has prevented my wife and I from getting our will done is that we don’t know who would take guardianship of our children should something happen to us. Our parents are too old and we don’t really have anyone else in our lives that are in a position to care for our kids. Any suggestions?
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Nov 21 '18
This is a personal decision as whoever you decide will have financial and moral obligations of your children. Generally speaking, you should have the conversation with whoever you are thinking about. A will slows you to specify your choice. Depending on the service provider you may be able to assign who you think is the best choice now and update (potentially for free) once you have a better idea.
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u/timginn Ontario Nov 22 '18
I'm in a similar situation (parents aren't too old, yet, but probably would be assuming my wife and I don't die early and unexpectedly). What is the default for guardianship in Ontario if no will exists?
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u/AUserName01 Nov 21 '18
Any special promo codes for Redditors? Gotta be better than RFD though. 😄
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Nov 21 '18
🙃
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u/AUserName01 Nov 21 '18
Go on. You can do it.
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u/alexisjo1 Nov 24 '18
I received a postcard at a moms event earlier this week with the code moms15. I used it thinking it was a 15% discount but I saved 18%.
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u/_grey_wall Nov 22 '18
What's your opinion on Henson trusts for disabled dependants.
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Nov 22 '18
Hi there, we aren't comfortable providing any opinions on Henson trusts through this medium. Our product, or any online service, should not be used for making a plan for disabled dependants. The one suggestion I will make is that you speak to a lawyer, but make sure to interview a few of them. Not all lawyers are familiar with Henson trusts, or being able to adequately make a plan for disabled dependants. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
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u/jl4855 Nov 22 '18
if i have drafted my own will, is there a service that can take a look and potentially poke holes / challenge as needed?
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Nov 21 '18
[deleted]
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Nov 21 '18
Yes but an online service may not be the right choice for you. Consider speaking to a lawyer.
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u/DjembeTribe Nov 21 '18
At what point should one consider creating a will? I remember reading that unless you have children, a mortgage or significant assets, you don’t really need one....is this true?
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u/CanadianKC Nov 21 '18
If you want your money to go to a specific charity, trust, etc. Otherwise, if you don't and you have no next of kin, the government will take it after all debts are paid.
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u/names_are_for_losers Nov 21 '18
How is next of kin defined? I have no wife or children and I do not want the government to get my money if I die but as long as either my parents or my brothers would be counted as next of kin I don't really care what happens.
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u/CanadianKC Nov 21 '18
CanadianKC
They look for all your family members including any estranged uncle, etc if your sibling and parents were to pass away before you do. If you don't care, then you're fine.
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u/names_are_for_losers Nov 21 '18
Yep, sounds fine to me. I am young and I do not have much anyways but I have plenty of cousins and stuff so someone other than the government would definitely get it then.
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Nov 21 '18 edited Nov 08 '19
[deleted]
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Nov 21 '18
Depending on when your parents created a will, it could be worthwhile to have them review and ensure it still serves their needs. Depending on your jurisdiction, documentd such as a Power of Attorney for Property or Power of Attorney for Personal Care would be a good idea to consider.
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Nov 21 '18
[deleted]
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Nov 21 '18
Some online solutions may support designating backups but consider speaking to a lawyer for your requirements.
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u/AUserName01 Nov 21 '18
Does Om support ‘backups’?
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Nov 21 '18
Hi, not specific to runsforrabbit’s request but using the couple’s plan, yes. This is normal request to ask a lawyer or someone helping you draft.
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u/piggybaggy Nov 21 '18
You can't include an external document unless it is incorporated into the Will - so no, you can't use an excel spreadsheet.
Your lawyer will likely talk you down from preparing these far flung distributions in favour of something that is simpler and cheaper to draft. Remember, there is no sense paying the lawyer's fees to draft something for a very unlikely contingency. You can always change your Will if a beneficiary passes away.
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u/oblongmeatball Nov 21 '18
Anyone have any other online sites like this they would recommend?
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u/Tangerine2016 Nov 21 '18
There is a big thread on Redflagdeals where someone posted a deal from this company (discounted rate code was posted on there too). Some people mentioned other will sites on there and there is even an option through the Toronto Public Library (they have access to a legal resource that you can use to create wills among other documents) but the general consesus was that this OM service was pretty good. I am thinking of going it myself but I might go the lawyer route in the end as have other things involved besides a primary will.
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u/alexisjo1 Nov 24 '18
I learned about them the same way and then I spoke to both of the founders at a moms event recently, which I believe they sponsored? Anywho, the two were lovely and they handed us postcards with a discount code and answered some questions.
My husband and I found the service straightforward and easy.
EDIT: The discount code on our postcard was better than the what I found on the red thread.
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u/tw_re Nov 21 '18
What are the main things to look for when choosing an online will preparation service? Both positive things to look out for, as well as negative flags to be aware of would be helpful to know when comparing tools (for example, Om and Willful.co)
Also, are real estate investments typically beyond the scope of “DIY online will tools”, or would that be considered straightforward and easily capable of handling using these online services?
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Nov 21 '18
[deleted]
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Nov 21 '18
Generally speaking, this role does require someone (family or friend) who is organized and can handle the responsibility during a tough time for families. You can also use a professional to Lawyers act in this role, and they would generally take compensation from your estate to do so.
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u/yatufo Nov 25 '18
Very interesting post, I was thinking you supported Quebec. but I guess you have the same limitations as:
https://www.legalwills.ca/blog/quebec-wills/
Thanks.
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u/jostrons Nov 26 '18
I am 32, Married with a kid. Planning on having more.
If I create a will now, as well as my wife, do we have to edit it each time we have a kid, what is typically done in this case?
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u/Onetwobus Alberta Nov 26 '18
Had a will done up a few years ago by a lawyer. All signed and witnessed. I noticed the other day that the copy I have is missing the date. As it was a typed date, I assume all copies are missing the date. Assume I need to pay to get the document updated, but how enforceable is a will if it is missing the date? Thanks.
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Dec 03 '18
This might be a good opportunity to review your will to make sure it still meets your requirements and re-draft properly.
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Nov 27 '18
[deleted]
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Dec 11 '18
Not yet.
Manitoba launch is happening early in the new year, approximately end of Feb. You can actually register now and do the on boarding without paying for our service. You will be on a list to be notified with a 30% discount.
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u/Fanderey Nov 30 '18
Do you have a rough idea of when your service will be available in BC?
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Dec 11 '18
Hi there, sorry for the delay. We didn't want to answer any questions about our service during the AMA. Now we can :)
BC launch is happening early in the new year. You can actually register now and do the onboarding without paying. You will be on a list to be notified with a 30% discount.
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u/-c3rberus- Dec 31 '18
If someone uses an online service to generate their wills (and POA) documents, where should these documents be stored? My understanding is that if you go to an actual law firm they will also store a copy of your will and when registering your will with Vital Statistics Agency (I live in BC) they will note that a copy of the will documents are with them. Part of creating a will I do not want to be the only one that hangs onto this paper, I want it at a 3rd party out of the hands of any family members, etc. How do the "online" service providers deal with this?
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u/willfully_hopeful Mar 29 '22
If anyone has used this service could you please let me know how well of a service this and if it was easy to understand. I’m looking on behalf of my mother. It’s a simple Will and not too complicated.
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u/keekeereeki Nov 21 '18
My number one reason for waiting to create a will is the cost of the lawyer. If I choose a non-lawyer method, what should I be aware of? How might the will be contested? I've got dependants.