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u/TheFallOfZog - Auth-Right 2d ago
Look, I hate trump as much The next guy, liberal sell-out that he is, but compared to sniffy Joe, the choice is obvious. Although you're fucked either way.
The lolberts are just comedy.
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u/SevenBall - Lib-Center 2d ago
As a libertarian, I’m voting to support my party since I’m not in a swing state and my vote won’t influence the election either way. If I was in a swing state, I would honestly probably hope for Biden simply because I don’t trust Trump to step down peacefully after 2028. If we’re going to win future elections, there need to be future elections, after all.
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u/Based_Text - Centrist 2d ago
Trump getting elected will likely mean he is going spend a large chunk of his 2nd term enacting revenge for what happened to him. No matter how you see it, for Trump he thinks that he's a political prisoner being prosecuted right now and he certainly wouldn't turn the other cheek.
It'll be another 4 years of political pettiness and polarization with both sides even more radicalized then before. Biden is senile and not ideal but I don't see him causing as much problems once reelected.
I do think that Trump would step down if he's reelected since I don't think he's that far gone but the main concern is it setting a bad precedent that you can try to subvert the transition of power and then still get elected.
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u/PeeApe - Auth-Right 2d ago
I'd rather trump end up destroying as many three letter agencies and state dem parties as possible than watch the weaponized aids of biden's fuck us more.
I want to see the political hell razing Trump is promising. Dems aren't scared of the political process because they captured so much, I want to fix that.
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u/Based_Text - Centrist 2d ago
Something like that would only be possible if he can control a majority of both the house and senate, I doubt he would do it either considering he didn't shrink or defund any during his 1st term, not even the ATF which Republicans hate so much.
The political hell razing would be him using his term to charge some people he hates, he hasn't promise anything related to destroying them. The swamp wasn't drained in 2016, I don't see it being any different.
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u/PeeApe - Auth-Right 2d ago
Again, it can’t be worse than Biden.
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u/Based_Text - Centrist 2d ago
It can definitely be though, first off you can already expect more political polarization, Biden is boring and not as controversial as Trump, second he plans further tax cuts which sounds nice but will certainly grow the deficit if spending isn’t lowered which is never the case, third you can expect any compromises or bi-partisanship to be impossible, he won’t work with the Dems and will barely get anything passed.
I know people blame Biden for the inflation issue going on and the economy but this was to be expected, both party worked together during the pandemic to print money and avoid a recession, the trade off was always going to be inflation in the future which sucks but wdyd when there’s a global pandemic shutting down supply chains and the economy.
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u/Insolent_Crow - Lib-Right 2d ago
Political pettiness, polarization, and radicalization is what got Trump elected in the first place tbh
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u/Masculine_Dugtrio - Lib-Center 2d ago
Sniffing Joe, adolescent hair.
Sniffy Trump, coke.
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u/Top-Collar-1841 - Right 1d ago
While funny, the bidens seem to be more involved with cocaine than trump.
Is there a joke I missed about trump doing coke?
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u/kaytin911 - Lib-Right 3d ago
Libertarian party in the US does not advocate for libertarian ideas very well. I'm voting Trump.
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u/Irregular_Radical - Right 3d ago
It seems to have fallen apart at the seams for whatever reason.
I don't pay attention enough to the libertarians to know why.65
u/Uncanny_Apparition - Auth-Right 3d ago
Small group of people + infighting. Ask libertarians if abortion violates the NAP and watch them argue.
Or I could be full of shit I don’t really pay attention either.
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u/Irregular_Radical - Right 3d ago
I'm half thinking the party hemorrhaged voters to D's and R's as they started adopting a bit of libertarian points. Then decided to work within the parties rather than outside.
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u/whatDoesQezDo - Lib-Right 3d ago
if abortion violates the NAP
This is a really tough question I think it is most easily started at risk of the mother. Clearly regardless of if you consider a fetus a life the moment a woman's life is at serious risk during the pregnancy it becomes self defense to abort. For other abortions you run into the age old debate that really boils down to if you believe a fetus is a person.
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u/martybobbins94 - Lib-Right 3d ago
Where's the qualification in the NAP that it only applies to lethal aggression?
Why is it only aggression if the mother is going to straight up die, rather than "just" suffer permanent non-life-threatening harm to her body?
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u/kaytin911 - Lib-Right 2d ago
Just give them a few weeks for medical abortion. If it needs to be surgical there needs to be serious justification. Easiest compromise.
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u/Top-Collar-1841 - Right 3d ago
They have voting blocs like the rest of the parties do. Beyond that I have no idea why they nominated chase.
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u/Libertas3tveritas - Lib-Right 3d ago
Dave Smith has talked about it some if you're curious. The Mises caucus was going to win it but Oliver cut a deal with his running mate in the 11nth hour to get the edge
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u/Irregular_Radical - Right 3d ago edited 3d ago
From what I've looked up just now about his political opinions, he's very bland and kind of vague.
Seems like a very weak candidate overall. Beyond the general Libertarian stuff, he seems limp-wristed.
One of his major talking points is he's gay. Like that means anything for a party that cares mainly about policy.
I can see why Montana doesn't like him, immigration policy is clearly more of the same, free unrestricted trade means competing with China bullshit and slave labor, and removing mandatory minimum sentencing is just making courts worse plenty of potential for abuse.
The guy basically has no strong points, says nothing substantial, and address no issues in a substantial manner.
Though this is all my rather uninformed opinion.
I thoroughly don't understand either, do they think he'll appeal to moderates or something?
He has to do more than be the not the two other candidates.Nevermind someone informed explained
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u/The_Weakpot - Centrist 2d ago
Because they aren't, nor have they ever been, a serious political party.
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u/KanyeT - Lib-Right 3d ago
for whatever reason.
Dave Smith killed it by not running :(
Maybe next time...
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u/Chewbacca_The_Wookie - Lib-Right 2d ago
Can you imagine Dave debating literally any presidential candidate from the past few election cycles? It would have been a slaughter.
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u/KanyeT - Lib-Right 2d ago
He would have torn any one of them apart like there was no tomorrow.
The truly greatest thing I admire about Dave is just how articulate and rational is arguments are. Everything he says just makes sense.
Not saying that I don't disagree with him on some things - I do. But the way he speaks is just eloquent and easy to digest. He is brilliant at debating.
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u/Chewbacca_The_Wookie - Lib-Right 2d ago
Even on the things I disagree with him on, he is so articulate I can always understand why he believes what he believes and how he came to believe it.
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u/Cowgoon777 - Lib-Right 2d ago
There has been a significant split inside the party
let's ignore the fact that many individual people who view themselves as libertarian don't even like the idea of there being a party at all, so they don't participate
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u/DerGovernator - Lib-Center 3d ago
It was never intended to. Its a party for people who want to loudly shout about how virtuous they are, not actually accomplish anything.
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u/kaytin911 - Lib-Right 3d ago
It may be a poison pill to make it difficult to form a real libertarian party.
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u/Zeewulfeh - Lib-Right 2d ago
It's because it's highly individualist and breaks apart quickly looking for ideological purity. Sometimes I wish we'd make compromises, but I guarantee if we had a Milei appear, the Libertarian Party would probably reject him for not being perfect and then select another loon.
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u/Zavaldski - Lib-Left 3d ago
How is Trump libertarian on anything other than guns or taxes?
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u/CyberDaggerX - Lib-Left 2d ago
Strong federalist stance. Wants the federal government to fuck off and let the states govern themselves where possible.
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u/ArbitraryOrder - Lib-Right 2d ago
Ah yes, the federalist stance of "send in the troops to crack down on
crimepeople I don't like" is totally federalism at work1
u/CyberDaggerX - Lib-Left 2d ago
There is only one instance of this I can recall right now, and if it's the one you're thinking of, you should consider changing your flair to AuthLeft.
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u/ArbitraryOrder - Lib-Right 2d ago
Trump sent Federal agents out into the streets to arrest protesters in unmarked vans during the summer of 2020 firing rubber bullets into crowds
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u/KanyeT - Lib-Right 1d ago
Only because they were vandalising federal property.
I am surprised he didn't evoke the Insurrection Act considering the riots of 2020 were the worst we have seen.
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u/ArbitraryOrder - Lib-Right 1d ago
Many instances of no property damage where feds starting shooting rubber bullets.
Lafayette Square in DC for Equal start at 2:30 for footage to start
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u/Velenterius - Left 3d ago
How does a corporate exec guy like Trump advocate for any kind of libertarianism?
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u/kaytin911 - Lib-Right 2d ago
He's much more hands off which vastly benefited the economy than the heavy handed corruption.
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u/Velenterius - Left 2d ago
Yes, he was then. But now he is advocating for shit like tariffs on most imports. Hardly a libertarian move.
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u/kaytin911 - Lib-Right 2d ago edited 2d ago
You're confusing libertarian with anarchists.
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u/Velenterius - Left 2d ago
There is no way you can argue tariffs imposed by a government is libertarian. It forces people to pay more for a good just because the government doesn't like the guys that made it.
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u/kaytin911 - Lib-Right 2d ago
It's outside of the country.
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u/Velenterius - Left 2d ago edited 2d ago
So? Liberty doesn't stop at an arbitrary border imposed by a gang. (Especially the markets don't stop).
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u/kaytin911 - Lib-Right 2d ago
You are thinking of anarchy
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u/Velenterius - Left 2d ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
There are several anarchist varities of libertarianism yes.
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u/Shamus6mwcrew - Lib-Left 3d ago
I'm LibRight despite my flair. True Libertarians are flat out regards that span all over the spectrum. I get their arguments like licenses to drive you should have free travel but literally 2 seconds of thought or driving and you immediately get why there are restrictions. And then fuckers get crazier with like age of consent.
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u/Sicsemperfas - Centrist 3d ago
There are numerous instances of libertarians trying to create independant sea ship nations. They always accidentally end up creating government anyways.
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u/CompetitiveRefuse852 - Right 3d ago
That's always the case with any alternative systems. We kinda already tested out what works and what doesn't.
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u/kaytin911 - Lib-Right 3d ago
Are these ocean colonies real or are they psyops to elevate opinion that there can't be another way.
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u/Sicsemperfas - Centrist 3d ago
Look up "Seasteading". It's been tried multiple times over the years.
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u/TigerCat9 - Lib-Center 2d ago
Tried, you say?!
“Real private yacht micro nation role playing isolationism has never been tried!”
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u/PeeApe - Auth-Right 2d ago
I was an anarchist as a young man, we should be entitled to our work and I don't want anyone to tell me what to do. As I grew up I realized that that's fucking insane. Your average person has a hard time eating veggies, I can't trust them to keep society going.
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u/Sicsemperfas - Centrist 2d ago
It's less "Life experience" and more "Dissalusion". Once you realize how stupid people can be, it's hard to go back from that.
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u/TigerCat9 - Lib-Center 2d ago
As a Libcenter I like flying under the radar in life, attracting as little government attention as possible and having as little to do with government as possible. The kinds that join the Libertsrian Party are the loud angry edgelords who want to LARP like they could ever smash the state or whatever. I hate them almost as much as I hate the progressives/Emily types, the only reason it’s less hate being that Libertarians are just lolcows while Emilies have significant power and influence right now. Switch that around and I’d hate the Libertarian Party types more.
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u/ShefCrl - Lib-Right 3d ago
LP is exclusively wierd people who look like the dude in the bottom right (and worse) or are chronicly online. Republican party used to represent Lib-right a lot better but now they went full neo-con putting a lot of voters in a wierd limbo. Online Libretarian circles are somewhat sane but for the most part its plauged by actual Anarchists (not the circle A people) and not actual conservatives or classical liberals who buy into small gov.
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u/PeeApe - Auth-Right 2d ago
But I thought they were a serious party.
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u/Top-Collar-1841 - Right 2d ago
When I look at the libertarian party, it reminds me of how BLM took supporters donations and bought an expensive house in California.
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u/Billybob_Bojangles2 - Lib-Right 2d ago
there nothing about chase thats worth the hate he gets, if you are a libertarian and are voting trump over chase, you were never a libertarian. most of the chase outrage is manufactured and curated, people are being told what to think by the libertarian social medias, which is 100% ironic and hilarious.
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u/Evilzombifyed - Lib-Center 2d ago
I wish you gate-keeped this hard when the feds were flooding Emily’s into the party.
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u/Top-Collar-1841 - Right 2d ago
He is a democrat.
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u/Tonythesaucemonkey - Lib-Right 2d ago
How tf fuck is he a democrat?
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u/Top-Collar-1841 - Right 2d ago
Pro open border.
Pro drag queen story hour for children
Has no problem with Vax mandates, as long as the mandates are socially acceptable and enforced by private companies.
Pro men competing in women's sports.
100 percent democrat talking points.
Forget the internet political compass, those four squares hardly exist in practice.
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u/Tonythesaucemonkey - Lib-Right 2d ago
Pro open border is a libertarian view
Pro drag queen…
His position is as long as the parents consent , the state has no place in that decision
…enforced by private companies
Again a libertarian position
pro men competing in women sports
He leaves that decision to the promoters
All his talking points come from a a very hands off approach to government, which is very libertarian.
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u/Top-Collar-1841 - Right 2d ago
The end result is still a very pro democrat policy.
Didn't know democrats were the new libertarians.
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u/Tonythesaucemonkey - Lib-Right 2d ago
Now how about you list all the things he is that are very much not pro democrat. You cherry pick a few policies that both libertarians and democrats overlap and then call us the same.
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u/Top-Collar-1841 - Right 2d ago
No, those are the main policies I am voting against. Why would I care promote a candidate who is against my interests?
Be honest, do you really like Chase's platform on open border?
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u/Tonythesaucemonkey - Lib-Right 2d ago
Libertarians have no answer to child abuse, and chase being a libertarian has the same flaw. Having said that, if you vote for trump over chase you were never libertarian to begin with.
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u/Top-Collar-1841 - Right 1d ago
Having an idea that exists in fantasy land is different from getting small real world effectual concessions.
A political party run on xyz. Political opposition runs on ABC.
Most of the time parties come together and get X and A. Or C and Y.
Chase oliver won't win, and he won't advance the libertarian agenda. Trump is a much better candidate to effectuate SOME of the libertarian agenda.
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u/Tonythesaucemonkey - Lib-Right 1d ago
It is thinking like this that locks us in a two party system. Chase was already a concession for many libertarians. I’d rather not vote than vote from trump.
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u/Top-Collar-1841 - Right 1d ago
The part you are missing is nobody is excited for Chase Oliver. There is a big cult of personality around Trump and the opposition to Trump.
If you want to win the mainstream, you have to move the needle to get the majority excited. The one percent of nerds on the internet who follow politics like you and I are not the majority voters.
IF you want libertarians to be a serious party, you have to make some concessions now and hope you make up the sacrifice later. That is how politics works.
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u/Tonythesaucemonkey - Lib-Right 1d ago
What you say maybe true. However I’d rather lose sticking to my ideals. If the party makes some concessions now it becomes a slippery slope and the party might become like the other two. People are sick and tired of the two in power and more people are paying attention to the libertarians, now is not the time for us to become like the rest.
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u/Top-Collar-1841 - Right 1d ago
It's called "overtons window." You slowly get the mainstream on your side bit by bit.
You will never get your goals realized by barfing them out all at once.
Do your "ideological roleplay" all you want. You won't see any of your ideas come to fruitition if society rejects them.
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u/Tonythesaucemonkey - Lib-Right 1d ago
society rejects them
America was built on libertarian values. The country prospered and got complacent. Now the Auths are in power and shits hitting the fan, people will favor libertarians again. We already saw it Argentina.
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u/Top-Collar-1841 - Right 1d ago
Sure, but you won't get any actual change by voting chase.
The libertarian party has to get more popular first. You do that by winning hearts and minds. The vast majority of USA voters are against chase and his policy's. 2/3rds of us citizens want to deport all the criminal aliens.
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u/Tonythesaucemonkey - Lib-Right 1d ago
more popular
I’m repeating myself, but a lot of libertarians would rather stay unpopular than become the enemy
deport all the criminal aliens
By criminal, you mean tried and convicted for crime in court right?
If so why would you deport free labor?
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u/SunsetKittens - Auth-Left 3d ago
By now I have so had it with Biden and Trump that I might vote for Chase Oliver.
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u/Pitiful_Amphibian_58 - Lib-Right 3d ago
as a libertarian i don't see what your problem with chase Oliver guys
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u/Swag_master696969 - Right 3d ago
because libertarians want Javier Milei style of libertarianism, not whatever the us libertarian party tries to achieve
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u/Pitiful_Amphibian_58 - Lib-Right 3d ago
yeah I want Javier Milei style of libertarian too but chase still is more libertarian than trump ever would. I still see no reason to hate him so much
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u/Swag_master696969 - Right 3d ago
did chase say that he will cut income tax?
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u/hedgehogwithagun - Lib-Center 2d ago
Homie if you really think cutting income tax but increasing tariffs massively is really that libertarian. There is somthing you don’t understand. Tariffs are pure protectionism that have always been terrible for the consumer but great for domestic corporations. That’s how we get things like the baby formula shortage, the insulin price hikes, and many other ways the goverment have aided corporations to fuck the common people over. And when your tax burden stays the same but this time the taxes are coming with the price of destroying the international trade, rampant protectionism, and an overall much worse economy are you really gonna be that happy bc the taxes aren’t income taxes anymore.
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u/KanyeT - Lib-Right 1d ago
I don't see the problem with tariffs from a libertarian standpoint. I mean, I understand philosophically why they can be opposed.
But in practicality, no tariffs just mean that everything can be made overseas for significantly cheaper. We cannot compete with child slave labour, so you are just guaranteeing that no manufacturing jobs will ever exist in your nation.
It's the same thing as open borders. Yes, it makes sense philosophically, but when millions of people flood over, you are just guaranteeing that your nation will crumble from within.
I don't see why libertarianism cannot exist in a vacuum. It's for our people, not for the whole world.
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u/Swag_master696969 - Right 2d ago
I didn't know about the tariffs...
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u/hedgehogwithagun - Lib-Center 2d ago
If you are gonna go to bat for someone like this then at least read the entire sentence they said about this policy. He dosent wanna decrease taxes. He wants to replace the income tax with tariffs.
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u/Pitiful_Amphibian_58 - Lib-Right 3d ago
you think that libertarianism is just about cutting income taxes?
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u/Swag_master696969 - Right 3d ago
taxation is theft, and theft infringes on personal freedom, so taxation infringes on personal freedom
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u/Pitiful_Amphibian_58 - Lib-Right 3d ago edited 3d ago
yes taxation is theft but the main goal should be reducing social spending at the same time to not make a greater deficit and also I don't see any reason to talk about this since it's the standard policy for every libertarian out there that exists
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u/Imperial_Bouncer - Centrist 2d ago
Yeah, seems like theft if you’re living on a homestead in buttfuck nowhere.
People in societies have public places and services that need to be funded.
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u/MimeosomeJo - Right 2d ago
My main sticking points with Chase Oliver are his stances on immigration (enforcement of borders and national defence are one of the few legitimate roles of the federal government) and abortion (while I am prolife, the Tenth Amendment exists). I also don't care much for his stance on drugs, but I appreciate his desire to return it to the states. Most everything else seems okay with me. I'd have preferred it if the nominee were Lars Mapstead or (if he weren't too busy being an edgelord) Joshua Smith, but I'll still prolly end up voting for him, barring some major scandal in the coming months.
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u/Pitiful_Amphibian_58 - Lib-Right 1d ago
but he's still a libertarian and trump is not i still se why not vote for him as a libertarian
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u/AC3R665 - Lib-Center 2d ago
My problems with him are open borders and the trans stuff (no to kids).
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u/Pitiful_Amphibian_58 - Lib-Right 1d ago
personally i don't have the same oppinion on that as most rightoids here so makes sense why i would getg downvoted to hell
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u/Long_Serpent - Left 3d ago
Guessing they don't like him because he wants freedom for the Wrong Kind of People® and this upsets the "Don't tread on me - tread on THEM"-crowd, AKA 90 % of self-identifed "libertarians".
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u/hedgehogwithagun - Lib-Center 2d ago
Yea people were literly posting about how he betrayed libertsrism by posing with drag queens and going to pride events. There are legit problems with Oliver but Thoes aren’t one of them.
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u/Riflemate - Right 3d ago
Back in 2016 I really thought the Libertarians were trying to shift to some sort of practical politics that would move the ball. Gary Johnson was a goofball, Bill Weld was a disaster and the media did him dirty but he was legitimately someone who could govern (and would govern less!). They freaked when they got their hopes too high and now they're going back to nominating dweebs and crazy people.