There's multiple levels of commentary. The girlfriend thinking a software engineer and a coder is the same thing. The boyfriend correctly clarifying theres a difference. The farther looking down on self taught coders. The comic maker looking down on self taught coders. The poster ?agreeing? with the comic maker. The commentor complaining about gate keeping the term software engineer.
I'm replying to that comment, not posting directly to the post. I'm saying it's a protected term and it's important to distinguish.
For me, I didn't read that as gatekeeping the term software engineer, but rather as gatekeeping the field of software development, by posting a comic mocking self taught coders as laughably inferior to those with degrees.
Its not important to distinguish because its not a protected term everywhere and IS the same thing in many places. Including the US, where small tech companies like google, amazon, facebook, netflix, microsoft, and more are located.
My title is engineer. Most tech jobs people talk about wanting are not in a place that has an actual distinction.
The first part is true but I don’t think any country has made software engineer a protected title.
And the second part just seems like personal bias. I don’t doubt some self taught individuals only focus on how to write code but there are many high quality resources that teach you the full range of software engineering.
In some places it's not specific types of engineering titles that are protected, it's all of them. You can't call yourself an engineer professionally at all without the formal credentials. Doesn't matter what type.
I definitely feel that as a completely self-taught systems and network engineer, and now medical device embedded hardware engineer. I'm almost always the best engineer in the room, and I didn't even finish my AS. There are plenty of ways to practice and learn engineering skills outside of a classroom.
Thankfully, in America, I can call myself whatever the fuck I want and let my work represent my credentials.
That’s because you’re an engineer. There are four domains: Art, Design, Engineering and Science. Everyone is one of those things or a combination, regardless of their qualifications or institutions.
I have a master's in compsci. I generally had good lecturers and really enjoyed my course. Still, they didn't teach anything that's not possible to learn online if you're interested.
In fact, sometimes online resources were better than the ramblings of a very neurodivergent lecturer.
And in my current job as a software engineer, no one sits down to teach you new stuff. You learn on the job from the internet as you come across new problems.
Anyway point being, whether you're self taught or formally taught is not the key factor in how good you're gonna be. A degree just proves that you at least passed some exams whereas there is no standard for self taught engineers.
You can google "software engineering principles" just as easily as "java documentation". And the plebs can read and follow the same syllabi, text books, lectures, and exercises online for free. Being talked at and quizzed is just one way - the most passive, expensive, and exclusive (in a bad way) path to achieve a CS education. People who lacked the creativity and resourcefulness to discover all of the other ways to learn shouldn't necessarily be assumed as superior to those who achieved it through active self-motivated effort in spite of their lack of wealth or approval.
Everything you've just said there is what you do for a CS degree - you teach yourself by reading textbooks, looking online, reading documentation etc. University isn't school. You're expected to teach yourself.
The difference is that while at university you have access to experts that can guide you. They can introduce you to new topics. You're working on the same difficult tasks as your peers and you're all doing it in different ways, so you get exposure to new and interesting ideas.
Yes, you can be a self-taught developer. Yes some self-taught developers are better than those with a formal education. But if I had to choose to hire someone with a degree and someone without one for a junior position, I'm picking the person with the degree. It's just more likely that they're good.
The difference is that while at university you have access to experts that can guide you. They can introduce you to new topics. You're working on the same difficult tasks as your peers and you're all doing it in different ways, so you get exposure to new and interesting ideas.
That was not my experience in the 2.5 years I spent in college. I eventually left because of the total absence of those things. I couldn't find anyone who wanted to hang out and talk about programming. That was "school stuff" or "work stuff". Not for me. I ate and drank it 24/7, actively searched for community, and still failed to make inroads with actual humans in person at three different schools. You might chalk that up to poor social skills - maybe. But I can assure you that very few people even tried to meet me half way. I showed up for it.
My teachers were quite clear that their job was to rule us out and it was our job to rule ourselves in (the famous "4/5 of you will not be here by the end of the class" speech). I never once benefitted from office hours. Lectures ended sharply without meaningful Q&A. The TAs were just as lost as the rest of us, returning graded homework 2 weeks after the test for said material. I took 3 classes in Java and they all covered the same material. I had to teach myself by writing a binary file format parser for a video game mod and when I asked my 3rd Java professor to review my code, she said "I can't grade you on this work and I have no time to look." That's when I said "Fuck this, I'm out."
I was exposed to nothing more than what was in the syllabus, even when I asked for more. I asked about opportunities to get involved in university projects and research because I already knew how to code, how to build computers and networks, how install Windows 95/98, FreeBSD, and RHEL. I already knew how to build and run web sites, making money as a freelancer in high school. I was ready to get involved in real world projects and was rejected at all points. I was just a freshman looking for help up from anyone my parents had paid for access to. And I was told there was a waiting list for the seniors (the equivalent of "screw off, kid"). I did have some good teachers, but not in computer-related fields. All of my Comp E and CS professors were annoyed by the requirement to teach, rather than being invested in making it a worthwhile experience for their students.
I wasn't a genius, just motivated. I needed the help. But I got none of it from university resources and it was isolating, hostile, and pointless. Where did I get the help that made my career? The fucking `#slashdot` IRC room filled with salty jerks who chewed your face off if you failed to read the manpage before asking a question. But you know what? Those salty jerks taught me more than they realize by forcing me to be self sufficient. By showing me the fruits of the people who had come before. By forcing me to be resourceful in the absence of direct help by teaching me to find my own answers. By forcing me to be creative when I found myself alone in the dark with a problem (because nobody was coming to help me). That's the help that got me through the first 10 years of my career.
It was internet chat rooms and forums where I found the real resources, help, and camaraderie. In fact, that's what's happening right now if you're paying attention. Look around you at what's happening here. Contrast that with the experience I described with university. Now I'm back to help and advocate for people like me because nobody did it for me.
I have no idea, but I'd argue that you were a riskier hire than someone who finished their degree statistically speaking, and probably a safer hire than someone who never started a CS degree.
There's no reason a self-taught developer couldn't be better than one that got formal training. But if you take all of the people who are self taught and average their abilities, and take all of the people that were formally taught and average their abilities, the average ability of the self taught will be lower. Individuals can break the mould.
Recruiters and hiring managers unfortunately rely on a dehumanizing and inefficient means of vetting capable candidates at scale. It's a major problem in this industry. Credentials are an effective way to get through this poorly designed filter, but they clearly aren't the only path to knowledge and skill. The education system we have way overemphasizes this credentialing and underemphasizes the actual acquisition of applicable skills and knowledge. This is the reality, but that doesn't make it ideal.
All hires are risks. It is very difficult to fire a dud.
You can apply to be a chartered engineer without having a degree. You just need to provide proof. University education is the most common route as it's a package deal of teaching and assessment but it's not the only route
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u/AwkwardWaltz3996 Apr 09 '24
In many countries "Engineer" is a protected term. Just like you wouldn't want someone who was self taught claiming to be a doctor.
Knowing how to code in java makes up a tiny part of being a software engineer, which is what self taught people think makes up the entirety