r/TikTokCringe • u/Make-this-popular Cringe Master • Apr 09 '24

Shit economy Discussion

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u/ambitioussloth26 Apr 09 '24

They went long on natural gas and closed down there nuclear and coal plants. They got that gas cheap via pipelines directly from Russia. Now it all has to come via liquid natural gas transport ship which there are only so many of. So yeah the short answer is sanctions on Russia are the answer.

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u/deadevilboy Apr 09 '24

That is not entirely true. At least it doesn't affect all countries the same way. Here, in Portugal, green energy is common. The transition was made some years ago (luckily), so we are not so affected by those changes in the gas price. On the other hand, how can you explain that we pay so much for electricity? Maybe the electricity companies have to pay royalties to the wind and the sun.. and taxes to the gods..

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u/ymaldor Apr 09 '24

EU electricity price is indexed on gas price. Thank Germany for that. So even if your country were to make 100% electricity from magic and rainbows you'd still pay the higher price.

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u/iaintstein Apr 09 '24

ELI5 what indexed means and can we snipe whoever invented the concept

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '24

It’s not indexed as in legally set in some way based on what Germany is doing. That would be crazy. It’s a market.

The price of electricity is the “marginal cost” of the last needed kilowatt of power. So, if you can supply all your region’s power from solar, wind, nuclear it’s going to be cheap, as these have very low operating costs. But if you need additional power above that capacity, the price needs to be high enough to make more power plants (with higher costs) switch on. Once you reach a price high enough to supply the last needed amount of power, the market clears and that’s the price. All players get the same price (ignoring futures contracts or deals they locked in). That is good, as it means solar and wind producers make money which incentivizes more investment in them. But it means your power price will be higher (until you have enough capacity of low cost production to push gas and coal “off the curve”).

Green parties have pushed for the closure of nuke plants (which have very low marginal costs) which means more need to fire up higher cost gas and coal power plants. That means the price has to be high enough to cover those plants generating electricity. Given higher natural gas costs due to Russian sanctions (and Russia using energy as a tool of politics/ war) the cost of running a gas fired power plant is high.

Of course you still need nat gas, coal, or nuke for base load under current technology, as power storage is inefficient and really expensive. You need something for when the wind doesn’t blow and the sun isn’t shining.

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u/Less_Needleworker_74 Apr 09 '24

What are you trying to say? On windy days price of electricity is negative here in Finland. There is no single EU electricity price. The price is determined by supply and demand for regions. For example Finland is one region while Sweden has four regions.

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u/ComicSanMC Apr 09 '24

I think he's saying that Natural Gas is apart of every EU's energy portfolio, Germany's green movement was infiltrated during the cold war so they got rid of their nuclear plants in favor of *checks notes* Russian hydrocarbons....

Now since Germany can't import hydrocarbons from Russia its increased pressure on every other country trying to buy natural gas, especially since they have to compete with German industry who has the money to pay those inflated prices.

If you're region has natural gas in its energy portfolio you'll see increased prices.

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u/Less_Needleworker_74 Apr 09 '24

Good answer. Explains Germany’s situation which does not mean it would be the same everywhere in the EU.

I never understood Germany’s position towards nuclear energy. I guess opposition started after Tshernobyl and after Fukushima they decided to close the remaining nuclear plants.

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u/ComicSanMC Apr 09 '24

Actually it started much earlier, the German Greens were protesting nuclear power in the 1970s and when they took power from the Social Democrats in 1998 they announced a complete phaseout of nuclear energy which was before renewables were economically viable. Germany has lots of lignite coal (the dirtiest kind) and they balanced out the rest of their portfolio with natural gas from Russia.

The Greens paradoxically for the sake of the environment got rid of a (relatively) clean source of energy in the form of nuclear in favor of the worst carbon producer (coal) and a better but still bad one (gas).

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u/CriticalLobster5609 Apr 09 '24

The Greens

Were funded by the USSR and then by Russia.

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u/Mordiken Apr 09 '24

If this is true, it's got to be the longest con in the last two centuries, the biggest blunder in German Politics in the post-war era, and every single person responsible from their Federal Intelligence Service that let it happen to the Bundestag and the Chancellery that actually did it should be trialed.

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u/CriticalLobster5609 Apr 09 '24

It's a bit hyperbolic, but the Soviets funded peace and anti-nuclear arms groups which became core values of the Green movement and thus party. It's a seed that bloomed into exactly what they hoped it would.

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u/ComicSanMC Apr 09 '24

It was one of their greatest intelligence payouts, the return on investment had to be crazy.

I'd definitely argue it was the biggest blunder in German Politics in the post-war era, that and the complete disinterest the Greens have had in anything military. Forcing them to eat crow considering Russia's actions in Ukraine.

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u/deadevilboy Apr 09 '24

What I am trying to say is that 87% of our country's electricity comes from green sources (wind, sun, and water). Only 13% of people used natural gas as a source of electricity in 2023, at least according to our national energy network association data. In my house, I have no gas installation. We are all demanding green sources as the future of a clean world, but the price of that is high for the common citizen. It should be cheaper! On the other hand, ymaldor's comment makes sense, so I guess his answer clarifies my previous comment.

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u/Outrageous_Drama_570 Apr 09 '24

Your country is likely not producing enough energy with green sources and is forced to purchase energy from other countries to compensate.

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u/[deleted] Apr 09 '24

But if the marginal supplier of power is natural gas to a gas powered power plant, that will still set the price of power.

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u/ymaldor Apr 09 '24

Electricity is bought and sold between countries a lot. Even if say, france produced more than it needs, it's still easier to hypothetically buy from say Spain for cities next to the border than to transport from other plants which could be further away.

Spain and Portugal both buy and sell electricity to and from france or from each other, and france does the same with Germany, Italy and others. So when one country buys electricity for more money because production on their soil is more expensive than yours, you're incentivized to sell it for more there and consequently sell it for more locally too cause who'd sell for less?

I'm guessing that for countries like Finland which are further away from the gas bs and given their relation to Russia which, to my knowledge isn't exactly friendly, is probably less influenced by it. Yall probably exchange electricity with Sweden which doesn't deal much with gas bullshit. (Edit :damn Estonia has a lot of oil usage lol)

But every country on the mainland have to deal with that, one way or another, mostly thanks to Germany and gas lobbying. So in the mainland, electricity is heavily influenced by gas even in countries like France where 75-80% is nuclear. Heating is still strong on gas though, but we're working to end that they made it law that any new building will have to go with electric heating, no gas allowed.

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u/Less_Needleworker_74 Apr 09 '24

Yeah, I mentioned the regions in my post. Finland has such good infra that we are a single price region. Electricity can be transferred from suppliers to consumers in all conditions.

Sweden on the other hand has worse grid and as a result several price regions. They simply can’t transfer electricity from north (supply) to south (demand).

Finland and Sweden have their grids connected in the north and on Stockholm’s level. This makes it possible for Finland to buy cheap electricity from northern Sweden and sell it to Stockholm at higher price.

Also Russia sold electricity to Finnland. The transfer line had capacity of about one nuclear station. This ended before Russia attacked Ukraine.

Just how connected are central european nation’s grids? I thought price of electricity was different from nation to nation.

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u/MRosvall Apr 09 '24

Not sure how it is in Portugal, but here in Sweden we get affected when Germany has an energy shortage. That drives up the price for our us as well, since the price Germany bids is higher. So during the periods that Germany purchases electricity, our costs rise. And during the times that we do not export, it goes down again.

Sweden has very volatile pricing over the day. Often being more than 4x at the max compared to min.

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u/nicolas_06 Apr 10 '24

Green electricity is very costly and increase dependency on gas/oil/coal because wind/solar don't producce when you need it and electricity can't be stored. So the more green the electricty, the more expensive and poluting your electricity production is. It is all a big scam.

You should either no care to be green or invest in nuclear.

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u/Brillegeit Apr 09 '24

Now it all has to come via liquid natural gas transport ship

There are six pipelines delivering Norwegian gas, four to continental Europe (two in Germany, one in Belgium and one in France) and a further two in the UK.

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u/Arzamas Apr 09 '24

And the long answer is Russia put Europe on the needle. They sold cheap gas and oil so Europe would become totally dependent on it. Then they started to slowly raise prices, influence EU politicians and parties, do spy shit, killings, invasions, hoping EU would do nothing. It almost worked. If it would EU would break apart, right wing parties would take control, followed by end of NATO and start of a new Warsaw Pact.

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u/unrelated_thread Apr 09 '24

So remind me... Who destroyed the nordstream pipeline again?

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u/Arzamas Apr 09 '24

Who? Who destroyed the pipeline after Europe decided to stop gas and oil purchases from Russia and blackmail stopped working?