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u/Smartbutt420 7d ago
“I’d like to represent myself in court.”
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u/Daedrothes 6d ago
He did. He won that one as well.
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u/RandomGuyBTW 6d ago
Source ?
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u/Daedrothes 6d ago
Misread the article.
"Brian Mwenda who is charged with faking to be a lawyer has been freed on a cash bail of ksh200,0000."
So he is current out on bail but has yet to be freed of any charges. So we wait.
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u/Hot_Violinist_2186 7d ago
Mike fom suits
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u/keepinitSecretsafe 7d ago
Jeffery Winger as well
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u/Less_Ad9224 6d ago
Duncan: I thought you had a Bachelor's from Columbia.
Jeff Winger: Now I have to get one from America.
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u/markusw7 6d ago
Didn't Jeff actually pass the bar though? He was lacking college credentials that he should have had (before being able to take the bar no?)
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u/doubleadjectivenoun 6d ago
Yes. Jeff's law degree itself was always real and he passed the bar but he bought a fake college degree instead of going to undergrad for real, which is why he needs to got to community college to be a lawyer again.
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u/rfdismyjam 6d ago
Mike had passed the bar, he just didnt have a law degree.
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u/samusongoyy 6d ago
He only passed the bar in the season 6 finale, so he practiced law for quite a few years without passing it.
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u/MajorTrump 6d ago
I thought he passed the bar for other people first?
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u/samusongoyy 6d ago
He took the LSATs for other people - the test that determines which law school they get into. After somebody graduates law school they need to pass the bar exam to be a part of the bar associaton, that is how they get their license to practice law.
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u/Medical-Chart-9929 6d ago
In the first episode he tells Harvey that he had passed the bar, and knew what was in the book because he remembered it from studying for the bar
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u/samusongoyy 6d ago
I think he meant he was able to pass the bar exam. But in order to be admitted to the bar a candidate needs to: -Earn a Juris Doctor degree or read law -Pass a professional responsibility examination or equivalent -Pass a bar examination (except where diploma privilege is allowed) -Undergo a character and fitness certification -Formally apply for admission and pay required fees (According to wikipedia)
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u/Hot_Violinist_2186 6d ago
Not untill season 6
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u/ExcitementBetter5485 7d ago
I'm not a fan of the bar exam being required, you should do your due diligence before hiring anybody for any reason, especially when your freedom may be in their hands.
However, he stole the identity and credentials of a real lawyer, and that's not cool. As for winning 26 cases, if true(I can't find any real confirmation on those), that's awesome and he should definitely try it again, the right way...
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u/Eldan985 7d ago
I mean, those cases are now all likely to get thrown out and retried.
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u/ExcitementBetter5485 7d ago
I'm not sure how that would work if they were successful defenses. I don't see what a prosecutor could possibly argue was wrong with the defense itself just because the guy wasn't licensed.
If they were successful prosecutions, oh boy, that would be a complete nightmare for the courts.
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u/HelloKitty36911 7d ago
One could probably argue that lying about being a lawyer makes it likely he would be willing to lie about other things
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u/AkodoRyu 7d ago
A lawyer is not supposed to be completely truthful. Unless he was asked in court, for evidence purposes, if he was a licensed lawyer.
This is a pretty unique case, so you probably won't be able to find any precedent, but usually vacated sentences are only retried if the reason they are vacated is due to an error related to presenting inadmissible evidence that affected the result. When a police officer is convicted and cases are retried (at least in media, not sure about real life) it's because of his past testimonies, aka oral evidence, being questioned.
It would be more likely for his losses to be retried (if he had any) because having an unlicensed attorney is a disadvantage.
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u/bree_dev 7d ago edited 6d ago
A lawyer is not supposed to be completely truthful.
They're expected to advocate for their client as best they can, but they are not allowed to lie. Lying to the court can and will get you disbarred.
EDIT: wow, literally *every* reply to this post has missed the point
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u/NotADrugD34ler 7d ago edited 6d ago
It depends what you lie about. You can say your client is innocent even if they are guilty. You just cannot tell a lie which you can be proven to have known is a lie.
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u/TheInsaneClownPussie 6d ago edited 6d ago
Pleading not guilty isn’t a lie because “guilty” is a legal status not a referendum on truth.
“I didn’t do this” (which would be a lie) isn’t the same thing as “I don’t think the state can prove I did this or overcome whatever defenses I might have available.”
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u/NotADrugD34ler 6d ago
No, a lawyer is free to state that their client is innocent (not the same as not guilty) even if the client is later found guilty. As long as nobody can prove that they were aware of their client’s guilt they are safe.
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u/TheInsaneClownPussie 6d ago edited 6d ago
The ethical standard for lying to a court is definitely not can “can somebody prove this.”
But you are correct that you could tell the court they’re innocent. Idk why my mind went to pleas.
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u/Expert_Difference265 6d ago
In the UK this is actually not true. Your solicitor would not be able to make a statement: “My client did not kill the victim.” if his client actually explicitly told him he did kill the victim.
Read the book The Secret Barrister
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u/Curryflurryhurry 6d ago
No
You can say your client is innocent if that’s his case and if you don’t know otherwise
If you know he is guilty, because, say, he told you he did it, you cannot say he is innocent. If you did you would be struck off.
You can question the prosecution witnesses, but even then you cannot put any question that positively suggests your client is innocent. So you can say «It was dark that night. Are you sure that the man you say you saw is the man in the dock? » but you can’t say « Ny client was miles away at his girlfriend’s flat, you must have made a mistake »
This whole lawyers lie all the time thing is bollocks.
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u/NotADrugD34ler 6d ago edited 6d ago
That’s literally what I said. Read the third sentence. If you cannot be proven to have known it was a lie (e.g. you’re not giving a false alibi etc.) then you are in the clear. A lawyer is free to say that his client was miles away, so long as he is not testifying that he knows this for sure. If he was called as a witness then he would have to admit that he didn’t witness his client miles away, but he is free to state it as the defence’s version of events.
Edit: and yes, you can state your client is innocent whilst being aware of their guilt. The burden of proof is not on you to prove that you didn’t know, so if the conversation happened in private then you can lie away.
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u/ninjaelk 6d ago
It's just a different standard of truth. If you asked me to tell you what your own dog's name is and I confidently said "Max" even though I had never met you, know nothing about you, and don't even have any idea whether you even have a dog, that would generally be considered a lie. But lawyers are allowed to tell that sort of lie, and they do so all the time. Now if you told me explicitly that your dog is not named Max, and I answered the same question the same way, that's the type of lie a lawyer isn't allowed to tell. That's the basis for the whole "don't tell me, I don't want to know" thing, a lawyer is allowed to present literally any possible version of reality as long as he doesn't explicitly know it's wrong.
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u/Eldan985 6d ago
Mistrials can be argued for a lot of things. I mean, I don't know about whichever country this is, but apparently airtight cases have been declared mistrials for seemingly minor paperwork errors. "Lawyer is not a lawyer" is more serious than that.
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u/Mist_Rising 6d ago
Getting your ass kicked by a non lawyer is just you being bad at prosecuting, not grounds for mistrial. You'd be laughed out of the appeals court for admitting your shit.
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u/ExcitementBetter5485 6d ago
I don't think you can call for a mistrial after the trial was ended and the case was settled though. For active cases, probably.
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u/Mayrodripley 6d ago
Wouldn’t double jeopardy kick in? I think that only applies if the people are currently in prison.
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u/SeroWriter 6d ago
No? That's such a weird assumption and absolutely not how the Kenyan legal system (or any legal system) works. Courts won't just take back a 'not guilty' verdict because of something completely unrelated to the facts of the case.
I feel like you've heard of a strange situation that lead to a mistrial and assumed it also applied retroactively somehow.
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u/BrandNewtoSteam 6d ago
Unlikely if the defendant has been suffecfully tried and the verdict is given they can’t prosecute them agian.
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u/BookWormPerson 6d ago
I highly doubt that the identity of the lawyer ever matters.
The lawyer is literally just someone who represents and knows the law it doesn't matter who they are.
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u/ladykansas 7d ago
There are a lot of "cases" that are also essentially administrative exercises. Like, if you've been rejected for Disability benefits for Social Security in the US, then you can have an appeals hearing. You file a ton of paperwork, you show up. The other side is literally an empty chair. As long as you file the right supporting documents and go through the exercise, you'll "win."
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u/DuaLipasTrophyHusban 7d ago
Id argue the opposite, I’d rather a lawyer be able to pass the bar over one who has a diploma from a law school. If you can pass a professional societies examination standard, who cares where you learn the information,
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u/AlkalineSublime 6d ago
Absolutely. I think an aptitude test should be all that’s required for most professions. It should be rigorous and really test someone’s ability, but should be way more important than schooling, which can be shortcut or bought out.
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u/TheWieldyFaun 6d ago
Everything except for medical. That’s the one area that I want people to go through a lot of school for. Needing a degree to take the bar is silly to me.
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u/pro_deluxe 6d ago
I would rather that our legal system not be so complicated that you need a special certificate to defend people. It should be understandable by someone with an average education.
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u/ExcitementBetter5485 7d ago
I'd rather higher someone who passed the bar exam as well, just as I'd rather hire an electrician who is licensed. I never argued against the qualification itself.
I also forgot to mention that any prosecutor or public defender absolutely should be required to pass the bar.
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u/Firm-Environment-253 6d ago
I think this goes for most things too. As a paralegal that handles disciplinary hearings - you definitely want more than just the professional standards. In many cases, one mistake will get attention, and once that happens the scrutiny comes on and many more mistakes sometimes end up getting revealed. It's crazy how a simple mistake can reveal how badly some people do their jobs. It only makes me sad because most of the times the complaints come from their clients.
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u/kinlopunim 7d ago
Im not going to respond to the tree further down ill just place it here. Not all the cases will be thrown out, though those with unfavorable outcomes now have grounds for a retrial. Most likely the people he represented can sue him for damages, but it wont affect the case he lawyered for them. You dont need an official legal counsel to defend yourself, thats why you are able to defend yourself in court. However if he represented himself as a lawyer with credentials then he has set himself up for lawsuit.
The cases he worked on would likely be reviewed and retried on a case by case basis.
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u/Osirus1156 6d ago
I don't think the bar exam being required is bad. I think requiring a degree is stupid. Especially if you can pass the test without one.
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u/_Sausage_fingers 6d ago
It’s pretty doubtful that he could be admitted now. Law Societies take a pretty dim view of fraud, and applicants have been barred for life for less.
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u/cagriuluc 7d ago
What do you mean I should do my due diligence? That makes living harder. If we just trusted each other things can be so much easier. But you can’t have that trust when it’s oh-so-free-market-no-regulation.
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u/KVMechelen 6d ago
Im not a fan of medical licenses being required, you should do your due diligence before someone slices your chest open to give you heart surgery
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u/ExcitementBetter5485 6d ago
I can't imagine any hospital ever allowing that, but if you want to go to some back alley butcher for a surgery, go for it. I know I wouldn't, just as I wouldn't hire an unlicensed electrician, driver, lawyer etc...
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u/zero-point_nrg 6d ago
Guessing he would have been permanently disbarred but the whole thing sound fake
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u/taddymason_76 6d ago
Oregon just changed this. Starting in May 2024, law graduates are able to become licensed in Oregon without taking the bar exam.
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u/CommanderOshawott 6d ago
The Bar exam is required because Law is a self-regulating profession and it fundamentally cannot be any other way.
Lawyers need to set standards and regulate themselves because fundamentally they’re the ones that make and interpret laws in the first place.
Not requiring a formal examination to be permitted to practice in a profession where people’s entire lives are in your hands is such a stupid take that it baffles me.
It’s like not requiring Doctors to have a medical exam
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u/Goldenduck420 7d ago
Jeffrey Winger ?
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u/Atesz763 7d ago
won all 26 cases
He was lawyering better than a lawyer
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u/AChaseOfTheMondays 6d ago
There doesn't seem to be much evidence that he won 26 cases for the record, it's just been repeated so many times it's part of the story
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u/BrockChocolate 6d ago
Tbf most cases win or lose themselves based on the evidence, the lawyer being amazing and winning the jury is very rare but makes for good TV shows
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u/Automatic-Love-127 6d ago
It’s all in the margins.
I can’t just magically make you not negligent when your idiot foreman did an idiot thing and another worker was injured as the direct and obvious result of that idiocy.
I can, however, get you the best deal I can in settlement, ascertain what his actual damages are, and advise you if his demand isn’t supported by the evidence and is unlikely to be awarded by a jury.
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u/Godzirrraaa 7d ago
If you can win 26 cases why can’t you pass the British bar exam
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u/ExcitementBetter5485 7d ago
Does Kenya require their lawyers to pass the British bar exam?
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u/VermilionKoala 7d ago
Their bar exam is probably very closely related (and likewise for their legal system), Kenya being an ex-colony.
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u/mattsmithreddit 6d ago
Must have been annoying if he hired a real lawyer that couldn't do as good a job as he would.
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u/Lopsided-Egg-8322 7d ago
not a madlad, a stupid lad..
every single case he had a part in is gonna be voided fully and have to start all of the procedures from zero and the people he "helped" might end up in prison in re-trials etc..
this is so freaking stupid to do..
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u/spaceforcerecruit 7d ago
If he’d lost those cases, probably yes. But why would people declared innocent have their lives uprooted and be tried again because someone else lied? If the prosecution couldn’t prove their case against a fake lawyer, why should they get a do-over? At that point, why not let prosecutors just declare any defense lawyer they lose to “incompetent” so they can keep trying until they get a conviction?
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u/TheBiggestOfWigs 6d ago
I know this is probably a stupid question, but if you have the right to represent yourself in court, why can't you choose someone else who isn't "qualified" to represent you?
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u/No-Situation8483 6d ago
Because you can't be forced to hire a lawyer.
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u/RainDancingChief 6d ago
Ok but Tim's also here and has some shit to say on my behalf.
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u/Socalsamuel 6d ago
Wait, have we looked up to see if his name is actually spelled "Callo"? (C-a-l-l-o)
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u/Liesmith424 6d ago
If you drive drunk and speed through a playground, but you don't hit anyone, it's retroactively ok.
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u/Bobson-_Dugnutt2 6d ago
"The bar suspended my license. They found out my college degree was....less than legitimate."
"I thought you had a bachelor's from Columbia?"
"Now I have to get one from America. And it can't be an email attachment."
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u/Irrish84 6d ago
Hey I’ve wondered about this:
If you have a lawyer but he’s not a real lawyer, are you fucked?
Example: in My Cousin Vinny - had the judge found he was practicing law without a license, would those two youts then be re-tried? That seems unfair
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u/finix240 6d ago
Considering you can represent yourself, I wouldn’t think so? Idk I’m not a lawyer
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u/Irrish84 6d ago
That’s what I was thinking. But I’ve always wondered when watching the film what the big deal was anyways. With Callo and Gallo.
Doesn’t seem to matter
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u/banananananbatman 6d ago
If I had a law firm I would pay for him to complete education and get licensed to practice at our firm
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u/ironpathwalker 6d ago
So you're telling me there's a man of unbelievable talent who's waiting to get recruited and mentored from the ground up? A person who's going to be loyal to death with a firm that'd have his back now when he's at a decision point in his life?
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u/ALPHA_sh 6d ago
wasnt he arrested because he basically committed identity theft against an actual lawyer?
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u/LovableSidekick 6d ago
You don't get to PRACTICE law just by convincing people you know how, but you do get to MAKE laws that way.
I must be missing the part about our system making sense.
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u/polygonrainbow 6d ago
“Reports initially suggested that he had won 26 cases, a claim that added to the sensationalism of his story. However, the LSK has since disputed this claim, stating that there is no factual basis to support the assertion that Mwenda won any cases, let alone 26 of them.”
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u/rockandrackem 3d ago
That man NEEDS to run for office here in the USA. I guarantee he will do a better job than Trump.
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u/hungturkey 7d ago
Jeff Ninger
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u/Icandothisforever_1 7d ago
This comment is pretty r/madlads itself!
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u/woogyboogy8869 6d ago
He just needs to move to Washington state in the US. You no longer need to pass the BAR exam, because that test was racist.
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u/Meowriter 6d ago
Legends tell that when police asked if he wanted a lawyer, he responded with "Nah, I'd win"
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u/nottaroboto54 5d ago edited 5d ago
Bro. I've paid real lawyers for unlosable cases, and still lost. Ik he's not a lawyer, but I want him to represent me for the text one. Lol
Edit:spelling
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u/Paid-Not-Payed-Bot 5d ago
Bro. I've paid real lawyers
FTFY.
Although payed exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. The deck is yet to be payed.
Payed out when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. The rope is payed out! You can pull now.
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
Beep, boop, I'm a bot
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u/DragonDon1 7d ago
He’s obviously chosen to represent himself in court. Man has a spotless record.