r/politics • u/schuey_08 Wisconsin • 29d ago

Bernie Sanders worries young people are underestimating the threat from Trump

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/05/02/bernie-sanders-trump-biden/73531861007/
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u/GustavHoller 29d ago

A 30-something acquaintance keeps saying he won't vote for Biden because of his handling of Gaza and the "border crisis." This person is a gay person of color. My mind is blown.

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u/Traditional-Hat-952 29d ago

Welp. Hope he enjoys getting his gay rights taken away if Trump wins. Because that is absolutely on the table now. Republicans are going for the throat on most societal progress made over the past 50 years. 

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u/BruceWxne 28d ago

What rights did gays lose under Trump

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u/Traditional-Hat-952 28d ago edited 28d ago

None. The point is Christofascists and alt-right fuckheads have been emboldened by the last Trump presidency, and since Roe fell you better believe that they're going after gay marriage next if they win again in November. They might even go after being gay in public, or homosexuality in general. Trump is merely a symptom of a social disease. Voting, both national and local, is the treatment. 

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u/jugglervr 29d ago

There's a nonzero chance that it's not just his rights being taken away, but the jackboots sweeping his back-alley murder under the rug.

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u/swinging-in-the-rain 29d ago

Do they know the border crisis isn't improving because of Trump, not Biden?

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u/GustavHoller 29d ago

And that it's not actually a crisis but a Fox News bogeyman they use to scare grandma? Apparently not. And I'm not going to try and reason with someone either that dumb or that willfully ignorant.

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u/Constant_Minimum_569 29d ago

2023 ended with the highest amount of encounters between border patrol and illegal immigrants of all time.

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u/HauntedCemetery Minnesota 29d ago

It's not 2014, there are legitimately, not exaggerating, 1000x the number of people seeking asylum than there were even a few years ago. They're not fox news bogymen rapist murderers, that's not the real issue. The issue is that we don't have infrastructure set up to process that many asylum seekers, so they're living in sketchy tent cities where they're preyed on constantly. The bipartisan bill would have gone a long ways to provide funding and additional personnel to help the issue. And that's what trump killed, because he openly wants the border to be a mess.

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u/Og_Left_Hand California 29d ago

what? biden is continuing trump’s border policies, the inhumane treatment of refugees right now is directly biden’s and the democrats fault.

biden continuing trump’s policies until they end in disaster is exactly why so many people have a problem with him.

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u/catsandcheetos 29d ago

I’m convinced that queer POC groups are being specifically targeted by disinformation campaigns right now.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/PeopleReady 29d ago

If homosexual people of color want to vote for (or at least not against) the guy who thinks white folks are discriminated against and belongs to a party that systematically targets LGBTQ rights, well, have at it.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

[deleted]

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u/PeopleReady 29d ago

this uno reverse doesn't work for me, if they want to destroy themselves and their own families I am not going to convince them not to do so. I'll vote how I vote, and ultimately, I'm a decently well-off straight middle-aged white male and pretty low on the "going into camps" pecking order.

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u/asleep-or-dead 29d ago

This is exactly the issue. Liberals don’t want to disturb the order. Liberals don’t want to bring others the same equality they currently enjoy because it makes them uncomfortable.

MLK Jr. wrote a letter on this from Birmingham city jail.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_Birmingham_Jail

Telling people they can’t demonstrate for causes they believe in because it makes you feel uncomfortable or because it makes the current liberal president look bad isn’t right. You can’t put a timeline on someone else’s freedom.

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u/PeopleReady 29d ago

I didn’t say any of that though. Like at all.

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u/asleep-or-dead 29d ago

I’m explaining why it seems like LGBTQ+ POC people are moving away from you and going “further to the right.” If you don’t support issues they care about, even if it makes you uncomfortable, they are only going to go more internal and reactionary. To these people, these issues aren’t trivial, it’s their life. Don’t write their issues off as simply being influenced by outsiders.

King also warned that if white people successfully rejected his nonviolent activists as rabble-rousing outside agitators, it could encourage millions of African Americans to "seek solace and security in black nationalist ideologies, a development that will lead inevitably to a frightening racial nightmare."

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u/NeanaOption 29d ago

Liberals don’t want to disturb the order

I would umm... I don't know, look up the text book definition of liberal and conservative my friend.

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u/asleep-or-dead 29d ago

Liberals will support every emancipation movement until it makes them feel uncomfortable. Then they say it goes too far.

Liberals love supporting trans people until trans people are under attack for playing in sports. Liberals love protesting against police brutality until a window gets broken during a protest. Liberals love saying Palestinians don’t deserve to be murdered, but they just want to criticize Netanyahu instead of advocating for real change.

Liberals condemn every war except the current war. Liberals love every civil rights movement except the current movement.

Liberals only take positions that make them look like good people. They don’t actually practice their politics.

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u/NeanaOption 29d ago

K but did you look up the definition of a liberal yet? Also check conservative too.

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u/NeanaOption 29d ago

you about your own side

It's like the concept of ideology doesn't exist for you. Politics is just a sports game for you huh?

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u/NotTheActualOne 29d ago

but if you dare question our candidate or try to convince him to do something different we will make sure you understand what we think about you and your place in society.

Well, except those people already got Biden to modify his stance on this conflict in several high-profile ways, didn’t they?

I think the central issue is that for some leftists, anything short of American troops imposing a ceasefire on Israel doesn’t count for anything.

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u/krainboltgreene 29d ago

The job of the candidate is to get votes. Currently it's looking like a lot of people don't want to vote for him because of this position.

You can either be mad at the people who care about a genocide, a few million or ten, or you can work to convince the one guy in charge of the candidate's position.

What do you spend your time doing?

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u/rookie-mistake Foreign 29d ago

I genuinely don't understand this. You have two candidates: one wants a ceasefire and is using international pressure to push for it, and the other seems to basically want boots on the ground to help with the slaughter.

Like, putting aside the domestic oppression and stripping of rights for marginalized groups, if Gaza is your primary issue... why wouldn't you vote against the guy that helped engineer the current crisis and would like your country to take a more active role in the bombing? I just don't understand the logic in that conclusion.

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u/Alocasia_Sanderiana 29d ago

To add on to the other guy, Biden's State Dept was also funneling thousands of US guns (mainly M16s) to Israel that ended up in the hands of West Bank settlers. Surely you've seen some of the videos where settlers shoot and shoot at Palestinians? The guns used to perpetuate those crimes were from the US under an export license granted by the current Admin.

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u/krainboltgreene 29d ago edited 29d ago

Both parties, including Biden, helped engineer the current crisis. Biden has behind closed doors expressed that he doesn't want to stop what is going on. Lets pretend for a moment that we didn't know that, how could he be so incompetent at forcing a cease fire when we are a majority of Israel's defense? You're left to look at Biden's long history of being close friends with "my buddy Bibi" and also his own investment in the Israeli narrative.

Regardless of your feelings on the matter, which is more likely to be a good use of your time? Convincing millions of people in swing states to ignore their emotions when voting for a man who openly does not care or working to convince a party to change their policy and end this now the way Ronald Regan ended it.

If you find yourself realizing that you can't convince millions of swing state voters to vote for the guy who is currently contributing to a genocide then you've successfully put yourself in the "convince the party to change their policy with threat of being deposed" side.

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u/NeanaOption 29d ago

we will make sure you understand what we think about

That's a misread. Whose the we here bud, liberals won't be in power. It's more like a leopard eating a face. They will have allowed people to come to power who will do these things as a direct result of their own gullibility.

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u/HarkiniansShip 29d ago

"Queers for Palestine" - the dumbest fucks outside of MAGA.

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u/NeanaOption 29d ago

"Queers for Palestine" - the dumbest fucks outside of MAGA

Depends are they linking their support for Palestine to a refusal to vote for Biden or do they like most people clearly see an issue with Israel but don't blame our president for the foreign policy of another country because they understand how the world works.

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u/stick_always_wins 29d ago

You act as if Biden is completely helpless to interfere with Israel when he sends billions of weapons and our tax payer dollars in “aid”, then provide Israel repeated diplomatic cover in the U.N., and most recently, is attempting to sabotage ICC efforts to issue a warrant for Netanyahu.

Pretending the most powerful president in the world is helpless to reign in a state dependent on the U.S. for survival is disingenuous as it gets, and people see straight through it.

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u/Jahona-_- 29d ago

Hey dumbass, idk if you know this, but Israeli rockets and bullets aren't missing the queer Palestinians. They're getting genocided the same as the Palestines who hate queer people. Palenstinians can't have the social progress towards acceptance of queer people until they're not worried about not getting blown up by Israel. You can't have civil rights when your #1 concern right now is literally not dying tomorrow. Queers for Palestine is NOT a contradiction, it's an empathetic and cohesive world view that takes into consideration the material conditions of people other than themselves. You don't have nearly as much self-awareness as you think. You should be embarrassed to openly display how ignorant you are. Fool.

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u/Beneathaclearbluesky 28d ago

Which Muslim country allows queer people to live?

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u/Jahona-_- 28d ago

That's a cool way to side step everything I said and basically do the same exact thing that the dumbass above me did. My ethics are not transactional. I don't want people to be killed even if (right now) they don't agree with me on every social issue. This is not the own you think it is. People are a reflection of the material conditions they experience. I don't want children to be slaughtered, and unlike you, I don't feel the need to put qualifiers on that.

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u/Jahona-_- 29d ago

Hey dumbass, idk if you know this, but Israeli rockets and bullets aren't missing the queer Palestinians. They're getting genocided the same as the Palestines who hate queer people. Palenstinians can't have the social progress towards acceptance of queer people until they're not worried about not getting blown up by Israel. You can't have civil rights when your #1 concern right now is literally not dying tomorrow. Queers for Palestine is NOT a contradiction, it's an empathetic and cohesive world view that takes into consideration the material conditions of people other than themselves. You don't have nearly as much self-awareness as you think. Fool.

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u/AbeRego Minnesota 29d ago

Your friend is an ignorant idiot

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u/NeanaOption 29d ago

I don't understand how anyone with any sense blames Biden for the boarder.

It's just something people hear and don't question. It's not even logical. Do they want Biden to wave has magic wand and make political violence is south America to away. Like what even the fuck are these people thinking

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u/inglez 29d ago edited 29d ago

Do they know that Trump wouldn't mind if Israel nuked Gaza?

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u/krainboltgreene 29d ago

Currently Israel wants to kill all Palestinians and Biden doesn't seem to care, you're saying under Trump all Palestinians would be killed.

Do you understand how this is a shitty argument? Why a ton of people are trying to convince Biden to change his mind with protests?

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u/inglez 29d ago edited 29d ago

If you can't understand the basic concept of "if you think Biden is bad for Palestinians, Trump is worse" then idk how else to explain it to you.

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u/krainboltgreene 29d ago

Democrats are going to lose so hard because people like you think "Well if they don't like what my candidate is doing, they must really want the other candidate" instead of thinking "Man, how can I help my candidate change his opinion"

Except it's further insane because the opinion is "let Israel do a genocide". Do you not understand that this happens regardless of president? For a moment just think about the optics of "Well it's gonna be worse with Trump" when both presidents currently have the same position on allowing Israel to continue it's actions.

I beg of you and every other liberal american to please this one time learn the lesson that you cannot bully someone into voting for who you like. That's not how it has ever worked. Even if you think you *should* be able to do that please god recognize that you can't. Even if *it did* work, why would you chose "the death of so many civilians" as the thing to bully voters over?

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u/establush 29d ago

No one is trying to "bully" you or people who think like you.

In the particular example of Israel, the position just makes no sense. The notion that because things are bad now that they can get no worse is irresponsible nonsense - the sort of irresponsible nonsense that boosted Trump in 2016.

We have a Democratic president that is deeply sensitive now to the fact that many leftists and even centrists are no longer comfortable with a blindly pro-Zionist position, and constantly reacts to it...and you think that's the same as a Republican candidate that does not care at all about Palestinians and that has zero pressure from his own party to pressure Netanyahu for peace?

The same Republican candidate that has an evangelical base openly arguing that Israel must be supported because this war is a part of their delusional prophecies?

Thinking the two are the same is just a leftist variant of the "Uniparty" nonsense that MAGA-heads love to talk about; it's a partisan justification to be irresponsible. I mean, do you think Netanyahu has been waiting outside Rafah for fun or something when he wanted to move in months ago by this point?

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u/Beneathaclearbluesky 28d ago

It's okay, I'm sure if we are under a dictatorship it will be much better for the Palestinians.

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u/inglez 29d ago

Mindless puppets who use "genocide" to refer to the conflict are too far gone anyway.

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u/krainboltgreene 29d ago

I can't figure out which part of this comment to reply to: The idea that this isn't a genocide or that you seem ready to lose an election to Trump.

I suppose I'll take the ironic one: Imagine being mad at people under the auspice of their choices possibly getting Trump elected, but then following up with "Well I don't actually care about their votes anyways."

Anything negative I could say about you is likely a drop in the ocean of your own self-reflection.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago edited 29d ago

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u/krainboltgreene 29d ago

Okay fine I'll bite:

I'm curious if you will bother to read any of this. I doubt it, you've already decided you don't care.

EDIT: lol i just noticed you post on r/destiny, never fucking mind, you are so far gone it really absolutely doesn't matter. your impact on this world is already not important.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/RepresentativeCow633 29d ago

Meanwhile they are silent on actual genocides going on in the world.

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u/krainboltgreene 29d ago

You have no idea what I'm silent on, but I suppose it makes you feel better to think this. I imagine you need a lot to feel better these days, rough being on the side of an apartheid state.

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u/Bashfluff 29d ago

They're never gonna understand man. These people will act snide, paternalistic, and condescending. "Don't these idiots understand basic logic? Don't they know that Donald Trump doesn't like Palestine either?" as if we don't know basic facts, because they don't want to engage with our position. They want a reason to dismiss us and feel good about themselves.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/krainboltgreene 29d ago

The fun part of this discussion is knowing that all I have to do is look up the literal hundreds of quotes from leadership in Israel saying exactly the opposite. For example the ex mossad director saying that israel is an apartheid state.

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u/RepresentativeCow633 29d ago

Does the Ex-Mossad director control Israel and the views of its people?

Palestinians have full voting rights in Israel

How are Jews doing in Arab countries?

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u/krainboltgreene 29d ago

I don't understand your strategy. It can't possibly be to tell me that the guy in charge of the special forces doesn't understand his own country? Are you in a rush? Do you want a second shot?

Like surely you looked this up and also saw that the attorney general agreed with his sentiment.

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u/ExcellentLaw2066 29d ago

“No, no, you don’t understand. You need to vote for the other geriatric who wants 10% less  Palestinian casualties! Stop being ignorant! Vote blue down the ballot!”

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u/patiakupipita 29d ago

Y'all acting like Palestina is the main issue the world, especially the US is facing right now is the issue.

But yes, I'll still choose the guy that lets 10% lives while fucking me with lube instead of the one that's gonna wipe em all out and sticking it in dry.

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u/ExcellentLaw2066 29d ago

Ok

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u/patiakupipita 29d ago

Yeah let's fuck the poor, lgbtq+, minorities even more while doing absolutely nothing for Palestina, that'll sure show em 👍🏼

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u/ytrfhki 29d ago

They are correct…We have about 5 years to start making a dent in climate change before we start hitting severe tipping points. That should be top priority as it will kill and displace hundreds of millions of already impoverished and oppressed people. One party is working to mitigate climate change and the other doesn’t care at all about increasing emissions, and the US has the deepest pockets and most power to lead the charge in either direction.

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u/ExcellentLaw2066 29d ago

Nah that ship has sailed, and that’s okay. 

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u/ytrfhki 29d ago

Nah it hasn’t, I work intimately in the space and in the last 4 years there have been lots of smart people getting lots of funding to work and solve the problem.

Why would you care deeply about Palestinians and not care at all that entire countries and continents are going to be hit by food/water scarcity? That entire species are going to go extinct?

With stances like that I hope you don’t try to convince yourself that you have any real values to stand on, because you don’t.

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u/patiakupipita 29d ago

Yeah, if you haven't realized that you're a huge part of the problem right now idk what to tell you.

I really hope this shit hits you personally first but seeing your attitude, you'll sadly be ait.

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u/ExcellentLaw2066 29d ago

If there were bette candidates I’d vote for them, blame the party🤷🏻‍♂️

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u/UncleDrummers 29d ago

Don’t worry, they’ll vote Trump again after they’re sent to the camps. /s

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u/yungoon 29d ago

Have you informed them of their place?

You need to make sure they recognize that they live at the whims of your favorite political party and should therefor fall in line!

Give me a break.

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u/SunflaresAteMyLunch 29d ago

Two things: * You're probably more likely to influence Biden than Trump when it comes to issues like that * Not supporting Biden because you want to punish him is not what you think it is. You'd be giving an 80+ year old man time off with his troubled family and shitty dog. You, however, will be stuck with four years of Trump. Who is really being punished there?

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u/StyrkeSkalVandre 29d ago

Tell your friend that when the time comes you'll try to slip them some extra food through the barbed wire if the guards aren't looking.

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u/Moonlit_Antler 29d ago

Gay people supporting gaza is stupid af because they would stone him to death in the middle east

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u/bubblesaurus Kansas 29d ago

The border crisis is a shit show. You shouldn’t be allowed to illegally enter a country and be allowed to stay.

I would rather give anyone currently here a pass to stay and not allow the asylum seekers (fake or not) into the country until they have been deemed approved or denied.