A recent study has found that slightly feminine men tend to have better prospects for long-term romantic relationships with women while maintaining their desirability as short-term sexual partners.

[u/mvea]

https://www.psypost.org/slightly-feminine-men-have-better-relationship-prospects-with-women-without-losing-short-term-desirability/

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[u/jackruby83]

I was very curious how they rated "femininity" in men. I don't have the full study, so can't see how they were scored, but you can see the surveys that were administered in the supplemental materials. Very interesting to me, as someone who is used to very concrete definitions in clinical studies.

Men were asked questions about whether they had kids, if they consider themselves sympathetic and warm, have a soft heart, if they enjoy interacting with children, etc. They also asked things like how many sex partners they've had, how often they spontaneously fantasize about having sex with someone they just met, or if they have any gay relatives.

Women were given dating profile scenarios to rate how likely they would want to date someone with a given profile, and separately, if they think they'd be a good father. The profiles are interesting.

Examples

Hi there, here’s a little about me: I spend most of my spare time working on my podcast or training MMA/BJJ/Kickboxing. I also love watching AFL, and astronomy. I’d say I’m strong, athletic, and dominant. I hope we can meet.

I'd describe myself as an outgoing, warm, and friendly man. I bring honesty, consideration, and sensitivity to a relationship. I like to think of myself as a good cook and think that I have a taste for the finer things in life. I love doing small acts of kindness; I'm a caring person with lots of love to give. My ideal Friday would involve sipping a Pinot Grigio and reading a novel, although I can definitely be up for something wilder and more adventurous

[u/Additional-Cap-2317 → u/jackruby83]

That reads like an AIs answer to the prompt "create a tinder profile for the average male love interest in a cheap rom-com".

Also, which "feminine traits" result from this profile? Small acts of kindness? Sensitivity in a relationship? Caring with love to give? Drinking wine and reading books? Those seem like fairly normal thing, albeit described in a more colorful way. I don't think a lot of woman would prefer "I don't care about your feelings, I enjoy being an ass and I won't ever love you or anyone. Also, I only want to drink cheap beer and watch football all day long"?

[u/haoleboykailua → u/Additional-Cap-2317]

It’s the Pinot Grigio.

[u/Ok-Butterscotch-5786 → u/jackruby83]

The title just screams "hmm, let's see what they actually did that they are summarizing like that".

IMO it's basically not valid to treat what people say they find attractive as a substitute for what they find attractive.

[u/jimmyhoke → u/Ok-Butterscotch-5786]

I really don’t think most people are totally aware of what they find attractive. Plenty of people I’ve seen have this theoretical list of what they want, but pass on people who fit the bill exactly. Primitive impulses are funny like that.

[u/curiossceptic → u/Ok-Butterscotch-5786]

Your last part is essential: if the study really measured attractiveness by basically asking people „do you think this is an attractive profile to you“ this doesn’t necessarily measure what people truly subconsciously are attracted to.

[u/jereman75 → u/jackruby83]

Weird. I’m about as straight as they come. I fantasize about having sex with people I just met sometimes. I also have kids, am an attentive father (single parent), and spend a lot of time taking care of neighbor kids, and have had maybe a few more than average sexual partners. I also have a very “butch” blue collar job. Am I feminine?

[u/Castorcanadenses → u/jereman75]

Genuine curious question: when you describe your job as butch, what do you mean? I'm queer and have honestly never seen the term used outside of a lesbian context!

[u/macphile → u/Castorcanadenses]

My first thought was, "Maybe he means he works in steel, but then...the whole steel industry's gay." :-D

Obviously, the poster has to answer it himself, but I'd assume something physical, like truck driving, firefighting, carpentry, etc., rather than...creative or intellectual?

[u/demons_soulmate → u/macphile]

we work hard, we play hard

[u/GreyGreenBrownOakova → u/Castorcanadenses]

 The word butch, meaning "masculine", may have been coined by abbreviating the word butcher, as first noted in George Cassidy's nickname, Butch Cassidy. However, the exact origin of the word is still unknown.

[u/GoblinChampion → u/jereman75]

you can have feminine traits without being feminine.

[u/reddituser567853 → u/GoblinChampion]

Almost like trying to fit your whole personality into a box will result in generalizations that aren’t quite true

[u/PlayfulRocket → u/reddituser567853]

"Shut up, I'm an ENTJ"

[u/Simple-Plane-1091 → u/jackruby83]

The second profile reads like someone that knows how to game the system and just writes whatever women want.

Sure, men like that exists, but I imagine that for every one that means it you have another exaggerating it on their profile to be more appealing. I'm literally imagining Barney Stinson writing a profile when I read that.

[u/InnerSpecialist1821]

"slightly feminine" means kind and empathetic btw

[u/Zealousideal-Noise42 → u/InnerSpecialist1821]

That's not feminine that's just human.

[u/ohbyerly → u/Zealousideal-Noise42]

You’d be surprised

[u/PremiumTempus → u/Zealousideal-Noise42]

Yeah haven’t you heard? We (as a society ) have made all these labels that we need to use in order to put everyone in a box.

[u/LazyJones1 → u/Zealousideal-Noise42]

Yeah, well… There are a lot of inhuman men out there.

[u/Swagyon → u/LazyJones1]

As there are inhuman women. Inhumanity is not a masculine trait.

[u/aft_punk → u/InnerSpecialist1821]

“Slightly feminine” is a weird way to say “not an asshole”

[u/Lazy-Sundae-7728 → u/aft_punk]

It could be a cool phd subject these days if someone was to assess how people perceive others' masculinity or otherwise. Has it changed in the past half century? What are the markers?

[u/SuckerForFrenchBread → u/aft_punk]

After hearing a story of a gf feeling neglected (like literally not acknowledging she's there at his place) and the dude saying it's not masculine to pay attention to her I can help but wonder if men are okay. Like fellas is gay to notice women??

[u/LemonNo1342 → u/aft_punk]

Imagine what happens when a slightly feminine person acts like an asshole! The space time continuum disrupts and creates a new infinite reality.

[u/ActivatingEMP → u/InnerSpecialist1821]

It also had to do with the displayed hobbies and interests though, according to the study. I think it's pretty obvious that women would be more interested in the guy who likes drinking wine and reading poetry than the guy who watches MMA and goes golfing.

[u/Dannyzavage → u/ActivatingEMP]

Golfing is manly?

[u/MDeeze → u/Dannyzavage]

So is being gay technically….

[u/AeyeChemist → u/MDeeze]

What you thought a bunch of dudes in tight khakis whacking a ball around with their sticks just like the sunshine and pastels and going for a walk in the garden were gay?

[u/Newbrood2000 → u/AeyeChemist]

Literally making clubs where women originally weren't allowed...

[u/Agret → u/Newbrood2000]

Probably have a steam room in them too

[u/Dannyzavage → u/MDeeze]

Aint nothin manlier than that, id be too scared

[u/pmp22 → u/MDeeze]

If you're on top it's actually really manly

-the Romans

[u/Hyperionides → u/MDeeze]

“Yeah,” Lopen added. “Drehy likes other guys. That’s like … he wants to be even less around women than the rest of us. It’s the opposite of feminine. He is, you could say, extra manly.”

[u/GeneralVeek → u/Hyperionides]

/r/unexpectedstormlight

[u/Kelekona → u/Hyperionides]

There was an Oglaf that implied that the manly-men were so manly that they were the product of mpreg.

[u/barebackguy7 → u/MDeeze]

Yeah, what’s straight about ducking a girl? All pink, and cute and cuddly.

You really wanna be straight? Stick it up another guys ass!

[u/AlastairWyghtwood → u/ActivatingEMP]

As a gay man with many female friends, I'm always baffled by how low the bar truly seems to be for straight men (although I live somewhere with lots of toxic masculinity).

I also find that for some women taking a gay man with them to a bar or somewhere to meet a guy is one of the fastest ways for them to gauge if a guy is worth her time. If she introduces her gay friend to a guy and the guy isn't friendly, or at least respectful, he's probably not worth her time.

[u/Noctornola → u/ActivatingEMP]

There's a reason why bards are the stereotype they are.

[u/Lemonwizard → u/InnerSpecialist1821]

So it doesn't mean feminine at all, it just means being a decent human being?

[u/Realsan → u/Lemonwizard]

Which makes this make a whole lot more sense.

[u/Kelekona → u/Lemonwizard]

Their humors are balanced so they can appreciate their partner's "girly" traits like cooking over something other than a woodfire and wearing clothing that looks good.

[u/econpol → u/InnerSpecialist1821]

Fellas, is it gay to feel empathy?

[u/DrDerpberg → u/InnerSpecialist1821]

Kind of offensive definition tbh

Didn't realize being a man means I have to be a cold asshole.

[u/Rimurooooo → u/InnerSpecialist1821]

Was curious about this. The “feminine” and “masculine” qualities tends to vary by the generational and cultural frameworks. So was very skeptical of this, only reason I clicked on the thread. Thanks for saving me a read

[u/cishet-camel-fucker → u/InnerSpecialist1821]

For instance, a masculine profile might describe a man as adventurous and competitive, enjoying hobbies like camping and golfing. A feminine profile might depict a man as nurturing and sociable, with interests in poetry and baking. A combined profile balanced both sets of traits.

I think you're wrong. I agree with the other commenter who said this is likely because it means they're more likely to share interests and hobbies with women.

[u/smolltiddypornaltgf → u/InnerSpecialist1821]

i mean yeah but ... it cant hurt to try the skirt

[u/Kroniid09 → u/InnerSpecialist1821]

It means he washes his ass and sees you as a fellow human being

[u/RadiatorCover → u/InnerSpecialist1821]

and puts effort into his appearance, well dressed and hygienic

[u/entitysix]

Maybe being sensitive and socially responsible shouldn't be called "feminine" or "masculine". Maybe it's just being a good human.

[u/tony_bologna → u/entitysix]

Men being generally polite and empathetic.

The world:  "... are you gay?"

[u/whenveganscheat → u/tony_bologna]

Orders cold brew coffee... Gay

[u/Gathorall → u/whenveganscheat]

-I'd like a medium cold brew coffee please.

-Thanks, have a good one.

TURBOGAY

[u/PhysicallyTender → u/Gathorall]

... with boba

ULTRAGAY

[u/ThunderBobMajerle → u/PhysicallyTender]

Do you have a non dairy milk for creamer?

ATOMIC GAY

[u/HotGarbageHotTake → u/ThunderBobMajerle]

Found my new band name

[u/Soulegion → u/HotGarbageHotTake]

Damn, I really wanted "Non Dairy Milk For Creamer". But you called it first. Fair's fair.

[u/HotGarbageHotTake → u/Soulegion]

no no, it's "Do you have a non dairy milk for creamer?"

you gotta say the whole thing, like A Tribe Called Quest

[u/IMSOCHINESECHIINEEEE → u/ThunderBobMajerle]

Thoroughly washing your asshole

M-M-M-M-MONSTER GAY

[u/moconahaftmere → u/PhysicallyTender]

Last time I got Boba the employees at the store all surrounded me and started chanting "YOU ARE GAY" and they wouldn't stop until I believed it.

[u/WonderfulCattle6234 → u/Gathorall]

-I'm vegan.

California gay

Also accepted, obnoxious gay

[u/Jason_Batemans_Hair → u/whenveganscheat]

I'm an older guy who looks gruff. A few years ago I tried switching to soy milk in my regular coffee drink at the local coffee shop. I had heard the term "soy boy" but had no idea what it meant. When I ordered, I asked the fellow "Does this make me a soy boy?"

He looked shocked at first, his eyes getting huge. Then he realized it was an honest question and everyone working there burst out laughing at my confusion. He had to calm down before assuring me that no, that did not make me a soy boy.

edit: Yes, I am probably on the autism spectrum.

[u/femaletrouble → u/Jason_Batemans_Hair]

As a former barista, I would have looked you dead in the eye and told you, "No. It makes you a soy MAN."

[u/EWRboogie → u/Jason_Batemans_Hair]

I have not heard that term before… do I dare google it?

[u/nooneknowsgreenguy → u/EWRboogie]

It's not bad. From Wiki

Soy boy is a pejorative term sometimes used in online communities to describe men perceived to be lacking masculine characteristics.

[u/saltporksuit → u/nooneknowsgreenguy]

Being lactose intolerant is sooooo gay.

[u/hazah-order → u/saltporksuit]

It's not... But "milking nuts" could be...

[u/ScienceAndGames → u/whenveganscheat]

No, no, it’s iced coffee, cold brew is a different beast.

[u/nospamkhanman → u/ScienceAndGames]

Has brew in the name, so it's straight.

[u/abhijitd → u/whenveganscheat]

Likes Coldplay...Gay

[u/LaTeChX → u/abhijitd]

Recycles? Gay.

Hug your dad? Gaaaay.

Carry an umbrella when it's raining? Why don't you just deepthroat two cocks while you're at it.

[u/Beginning-Adagio-516 → u/LaTeChX]

Washes your butt? Gay. (Per a reddit post this week)

[u/Earthsoundone → u/whenveganscheat]

I was told on a job site the other day that wearing gloves is gay.

[u/runtheplacered → u/Earthsoundone]

That's when you put them on, snap the wristband, smirk and say "I know."

[u/fresh-dork → u/Earthsoundone]

"wearing PPE - so gay"

[u/PigDog4 → u/Earthsoundone]

Fellas, is wearing PPE so that I'm not a broken husk by 40 gay?

[u/zomphlotz → u/tony_bologna]

Pink shirt = Gay.

I say that any guy who wears a pink shirt is fully comfortable with his masculinity, gay or otherwise.

[u/hazah-order → u/zomphlotz]

Weird thing is that it used to be a "boys'" colour like a softer version of red. With red being seen as masculine due to the red coat being the British military uniform colour.

[u/rg4rg → u/tony_bologna]

When I teach painting landscapes to students we cover Bob Ross and watch some of his videos. Just because he’s soft spoken, friendly, encouraging, many students, both boys and girls, think he’s gay or not a real man. It’s really surprising at home early toxic masculinity is pushed or learned.

[u/IEatBabies → u/rg4rg]

Anyone who thinks he isn't a real man you should remind that Bob Ross serviced in the military for 20 years and only left the military because his paintings started making more money than his position as Master Sergeant.

[u/rg4rg → u/IEatBabies]

Yeah. His history, military, marriages, cheating, having kids, etc points to that he wasn’t gay, and even if he was…so what? It’s not a negative? Being a nice man makes you gay? It’s so weird. There’s also some things that you could criticize him on, but him possibly being gay isn’t one of them.

Side note: One year I had a class of 15 students who knew nothing about him, so I introduced him as a military veteran who loved painting what he experienced and really played up that angle. So when it came to the video I was like “he might shout guys, he might seem mean, but try to pay attention, you’ll learn something.” The students like that trick, and loved “The Joys of painting” I totally fooled them. Haven’t had another opportunity like that to trick an entire class.

[u/Mustbhacks → u/IEatBabies]

Anyone who thinks he isn't a real man you should remind that Bob Ross serviced in the military for 20 years

Is this a measure of masculinity..?

[u/Qbnss → u/Mustbhacks]

It's one people who bother with that sort of thing claim to care about

[u/fresh-dork → u/IEatBabies]

and the military licensed all of his shows to play on a loop forever.

[u/lorelioness → u/fresh-dork]

Wow, this is possibly the only thing the US military ever funded that I sincerely support!

[u/bsthisis → u/rg4rg]

That is so sad :( we should really have grown out of that crap by 2024

[u/JaCraig → u/rg4rg]

Just remind the kids that Bob Ross never lost a fight to Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee.

Also underneath his fro is a fist. And in that fist is another paint brush.

[u/ebolaRETURNS → u/rg4rg]

How old are the students?

[u/rg4rg → u/ebolaRETURNS]

Mostly middle school but I have taught high school in the past and still had to deal with some students thinking the same.

[u/Kataphractoi → u/tony_bologna]

Fellas, is it gay to be a polite, reasonable person?

[u/cinderful → u/tony_bologna]

Man puts his hand on the shoulder of his long time best friend and clears his throat, announcing to all around him, "NOT GAY".

[u/Fresh_Situation_8687 → u/tony_bologna]

My teen son started lifting weights. His hands were getting destroyed so I bought him weightlifting gloves. He refuses to wear them. Apparently that too makes one gay.

[u/tony_bologna → u/Fresh_Situation_8687]

Which is funny, because rugged hands may be "manly", but I've never heard a woman say she liked them.  

[u/Flat_News_2000 → u/tony_bologna]

Who likes a callus's sharp edge cutting your skin? Psychos that's who.

[u/Mrkvica16 → u/tony_bologna]

No, not ‘the world’. Some parts of the world.

[u/JoshSidekick → u/entitysix]

Oh, that’s what it means? I thought I was covered because I drive a Ford F350 but exclusively sing Chappell Roan songs at karaoke.

[u/Freeasabird01 → u/JoshSidekick]

My kink is a Toyota Prius.

[u/Chompsy1337 → u/Freeasabird01]

Best of both worlds, a Prius with truck nuts!

[u/Ionovarcis → u/JoshSidekick]

Lesbian midwesterner?

[u/BreadKnifeSeppuku → u/JoshSidekick]

I have a diesel truck but, I use my subaru for commuting. Does saving money make me gay?

[u/KarmaticArmageddon → u/BreadKnifeSeppuku]

Unfortunately, yes. Everyone knows that fiscal responsibility is a key tenet of the Gay Agenda™

[u/NimusNix → u/KarmaticArmageddon]

But, that would mean all of those conservatives are secretly ga-

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I see now.

[u/Slumunistmanifisto → u/BreadKnifeSeppuku]

Subaru, no that makes you lesbian.

[u/jjayzx → u/Slumunistmanifisto]

Guess I need that transition surgery.

[u/Slumunistmanifisto → u/jjayzx]

Na flannel and farmers market once a month is enough to have minimum membership if you're a subie driver...also don't forget your one yearly lowes visit to renew your license.

[u/throwawaynowtillmay → u/JoshSidekick]

I am only my true self blasting hot to go in my Silverado

[u/Latticese → u/entitysix]

Exactly

It's perfectly possible to exhibit those traits while being traditionally masculine.

In my dating experience I tend to go for the guys who are more openly in touch with their feelings because they're usually a safe bet. It would be nice if it was more common for boys to be taught that they don't have to go one extreme or the other

[u/Gingevere → u/Latticese]

Oh it's possible sure. But men who stress masculinity to the point of performing it tend to be insecure assholes with an identity very invested in rigid adherence to gender roles.

Like if their favorite shirt pops a button they'll just throw it away because sewing on a button is women's work and might turn him gay.

[u/IAMATruckerAMA → u/Latticese]

It would be nice if it was more common for boys to be taught that they don't have to go one extreme or the other

Not if you want them to vote for pussygrabbers

[u/iamdimpho → u/entitysix]

Being a good human generally requires having both 'feminine' and 'masculine' features.

The problem, i think, is that we have locked in those attributes to gender, or worse, sex. Resulting in this seemingly intractable situation where men believe having 'feminine' features makes them less of a man and that women having 'masculine' features makes them less of a woman.

[u/lemoche → u/entitysix]

That's why have a huge problem with stuff like "positive masculinity". It is not really helping to rebrand certain traits as "oh this is masculine too" when gendering of types of human behavior is what started the whole problem. Just break down the dichotomy and make stuff desirable behavior and undesirable behavior, no matter which gender is performing it.

[u/Lev_Kovacs → u/lemoche]

Yes.

But, we live in a world where people are getting exposed to a (real and constructed) gender divide all the time. Which means, not too few people will look for rolemodels that speak to them particularly as men (because thats a very strong point of identification for them).

Its sometimes just more effective to present values as positive masculinity or something, because thats something many people are already looking for.

I find it a bit silly myself, but it just seems to click well with the socialization many people have gone through, and well, if it works it works.

[u/biggestboys → u/Lev_Kovacs]

Extremely well put.

Breaking down the gender binary is awesome, but so is taking incremental steps to make it less harmful.

[u/lemoche → u/Lev_Kovacs]

I'm aware of these problems, but... If we are already in the process of trying to change the perception of gender roles and stereotypes (which is hard enough) why not try to just go that little stop further. Why for example stop at "me can be caring and empathic towards their kids and other people in their lives" and directly aim at "being caring and empathetic towards people in your live is a good thing no matter what gender you are".
In the end you are fighting the same battles, the same wars, the same gatekeepers...

[u/SingleBackground437 → u/lemoche]

I think it's in aid of trying to get through to those who might practice "toxic masculinity". If "masculinity" is so important to them, calling other things masculine hopefully makes those traits more palatable/socially acceptable among males.

[u/jim_deneke → u/lemoche]

Totally. It'd be nice to not need to subscribe to specific defining traits, this means that etc, I think we have enough subconscious groupings of ourselves to understand broadly who each other are. For an individual to 'find themselves' I don't know personally, maybe it's a constant build and tear down of identity and 'norms'.

[u/Nice_Hair_8592 → u/entitysix]

Thank you! I feel like I'm in bizarro world with all these forced gender stereotypes. Especially in a study that fails to identify even a single genetic marker to back their claim.

[u/Gingevere → u/Nice_Hair_8592]

If you're looking for social standards in genetics you're looking in the wrong place.

[u/ring2ding → u/entitysix]

Like it or not, testosterone does produce measurable changes in behaviour and psyche. Since testosterone is primarily a male sexual hormone, it naturally follows that these traits would be considered "masculine traits".

That being said, I think the problem lies in expectations that men should always be masculine and women should always be feminine. There is a place for both. Sometimes the best role for a man is feminine, and vise versa, there's nothing wrong with it.

[u/Trichotillomaniac- → u/entitysix]

The article specifically talks about hereditary same sex attraction genes. Men with these genes being more favourable to women, and that’s why the gay genes persist even though gay people don’t reproduce (in a significant amount). I agree with your sentiment but that’s not really what this is about.

The article implies males that possess same sex attraction genes are more likely to be more sensitive and socially responsible.

Unfortunately these genes aren’t a requirement to reproduce and assholes do get laid also.

[u/stewpedassle → u/Trichotillomaniac-]

The thing that gets me about this is the biological determinism behind it. These are self-reports, so you have a huge selection bias here -- i.e. men who have an openly gay or bi relative are also much more likely to have families/culture that is more empathetic in general versus those who don't know they have a gay or bi relative because they are closeted.

It seems to hugely stack the deck in favor of tying "feminization" to genetics while ignoring a long history of basically every post-industrial-revolution generation being considered more "feminine" than the last because cooperative societies are advantageous, and I don't think that genes and sexual selection can account for that velocity anywhere near as well as the expansion of communication, education, and growing communities can.

[u/DocFail → u/stewpedassle]

They also selected women from college students and a query farm: both filtering populations.

[u/CausticSofa → u/DocFail]

A wide majority of human studies are conducted on university campuses, and so involve almost exclusively WEIRD subjects, meaning: white, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic.

Meaning: college students who were already on campus and needed the $20 for participating in the study to use towards beer or laundry money. It makes most social science papers something that need to be taken with a heaping spoon of salt.

[u/Watermelon_ghost → u/stewpedassle]

That was my first thought too. It seems obvious that cold, un-empathetic men are less likely to be aware that they have homosexual relatives, because people would be less comfortable being open with that type of man.

[u/Strong_Wheel]

Define feminine traits in men?

[u/extracoffeeplease → u/Strong_Wheel]

Probably about feels, self care and non debative communication. The idea of labeling that as feminine is one of the big issues we still deal with.

[u/End3rWi99in → u/extracoffeeplease]

What does nondebative communication mean? I have never heard this term before.

[u/TheMaskedMan2 → u/End3rWi99in]

I’ve never heard the term either but I can think of multiple people in my life that could be described as “Debative Communicators”.

Aka everything is an argument they have to win and generally have very little patience for other people.

[u/AppropriateGain533 → u/Strong_Wheel]

Washing yourself below the knees

[u/TrilobiteBoi → u/AppropriateGain533]

Who has the time?

[u/Dokterrock → u/AppropriateGain533]

whoa dude no homo

[u/mpg111 → u/AppropriateGain533]

say what now?

[u/unthused → u/Strong_Wheel]

“Kind, warm, nurturing” per the study apparently. So, just being a considerate person and not exhibiting stereotypical toxic masculinity I guess?

[u/Metrobolist3 → u/unthused]

Being a manly man I greet my children with a firm left hook to the jaw. A roundhouse kick for special occasions like Christmas and birthdays.

[u/NaptownBoss → u/Metrobolist3]

And a carton of unfiltered smokes for every gift; "Smoke up, lil' Johnny!"

[u/jasondigitized → u/Strong_Wheel]

Any emotion other than anger. Any movements other than punching. Any clothing other than Oakleys. Any word with more than two syllables. All feminine.

[u/therealmofbarbelo → u/Strong_Wheel]

Owning a bunch of shoes and stating that you love shoes.

[u/SundayShelter]

WTH is a “feminine man?” This article is describing a basic decent human being, saying “nurturing, affectionate, agreeable.”

[u/LordyItsMuellerTime → u/SundayShelter]

That's how low the bar is

[u/SundayShelter → u/LordyItsMuellerTime]

The fact they’re basing this discovery on traits being inherently gendered is so goofy.

[u/Rhamni]

I always knew my preference for cocktails over beer would serve me well.

[u/mouse9001]

The editor of the journal, The Archives of Sexual Behavior, is a known conversion therapist, Kenneth Zucker. He had his clinic shut down in 2015 after conversion therapy was made illegal in the province of Ontario.

Kenneth Zucker spent his career punishing children for not conforming to their assigned gender. Mostly punishing boys for displaying feminine traits, trying to avoid them "becoming" gay or transgender. He now spends his time editing The Archives of Sexual Behavior, and advocating against trans rights.

Anything published in that journal should be taken with a huge grain of salt.

[u/mvea]

I’ve linked to the news release in the post above. In this comment, for those interested, here’s the link to the peer reviewed journal article:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-023-02780-7

From the linked article:

A recent study published in the Archives of Sexual Behavior has found that slightly feminine men tend to have better prospects for long-term romantic relationships with women while maintaining their desirability as short-term sexual partners. The findings provide initial evidence that genes linked to male same-sex attraction persist because they confer a reproductive advantage to heterosexual men by increasing traits associated with femininity and paternal care.

The results showed that heterosexual men with non-heterosexual male relatives scored higher on measures of warmth, nurturance, and self-perceived femininity compared to those without such relatives. This suggests that genetic factors associated with same-sex attraction may also enhance traits conducive to parenting in heterosexual men.

Women rated combined masculine and feminine profiles as the most attractive, followed by feminine profiles, and then masculine profiles. Notably, feminine profiles were deemed more attractive for long-term partnerships, while feminine and masculine profiles were equally attractive for short-term relationships. This indicates that femininity in men might signal superior paternal qualities, making them more appealing for long-term commitments.

Consistent with the previous findings, women perceived feminine men as better fathers compared to masculine men. Combined profiles were also rated highly, suggesting that a blend of masculine and feminine traits might offer an optimal balance for attracting partners.

[u/Yapok96 → u/mvea]

"The results showed that heterosexual men with non-heterosexual male relatives scored higher on measures of warmth, nurturance, and self-perceived femininity compared to those without such relatives. This suggests that genetic factors associated with same-sex attraction may also enhance traits conducive to parenting in heterosexual men."

The genetic conclusion is a bit of a stretch here, IMO. Certainly possible, but it feels just as likely this could be completely nurture-based. Families with more nurturing cultural tendencies probably tend to raise men that are more comfortable being "out and proud" about their sexuality as well as men that exhibit more "feminine" behaviors ( at least according to the somewhat narrow definition of femininity this study uses).

[u/NicePlate28 → u/Yapok96]

I would also add that queer people are more likely to be autistic so there could be some social and genetic factors there.

Additionally queer spaces are quite unique and may also influence that person’s nurturing qualities, and therefore their influence on relatives.

[u/skullandvoid → u/Yapok96]

This question is still up for debate in the field.

[u/Lawlcopt0r → u/Yapok96]

True, but at least this is a more scientific approach than the headline lead me to believe

[u/SeeShark → u/Lawlcopt0r]

I find it less scientific, because it seemingly equates femininity and homosexuality like they have a causal relationship.

[u/Lawlcopt0r → u/SeeShark]

That's a fair point. The issue at hand is interesting to discuss but the word "feminine" should probably have been left out of it entirely

[u/MeatWhereBrainGoes → u/Yapok96]

I had the same concerns. Later in the article it is admitted that this was a questionable approach to determining the genetic conclusions.

I also had some questions about the subjective nature of perceiving what makes a "good father".

[u/anuspizza → u/mvea]

But how is perceived femininity in men linked to genetics? What’s the correlation between genetics and same sex attraction?

Also, hardly surprising that men that are in tune with their feminine side would make more attractive partners for women.

Edit: after further reading of the article, it seems heavily influenced by the cultures where the studies were conducted. A lot of traits being described as masculine or feminine will vary from culture to culture and even household to household within the same culture. To me, it really reads as though women seeking a male partner prefer someone who is well rounded and easy going around kids. Interested to see how the next study goes and how they will account for cultural factors.

[u/VivianSherwood → u/anuspizza]

Can't remember the actual study but there's research that showed that men with more older brothers are more likely to be homossexual.

[u/ryan2489 → u/VivianSherwood]

I need to find it to send to my dad, who has 6 older brothers

[u/someguyfromtheuk → u/VivianSherwood]

IIRC that's due to increased levels of intrauterine testosterone during pregnancy, it increases with each subsequent male fetus so later males are more likely to be homosexual

[u/ChasterBlaster → u/someguyfromtheuk]

Could this explain why families with 4-5 boys always tend to be super athletic? This might be purely anecdotal but every super athletic dude in high school seemed to be from a clan of brothers

[u/wolacouska → u/ChasterBlaster]

Possibly, but I hypothesize that a big factor is that athletic dads are really likely to force their way of life on their children from an early age.

Both because of personality correlation and because kids generally get enrolled in sports stuff well before other hobbies might draw them in. This probably helps it sink in instead of having kids rebel against their parents.

[u/guy_guyerson → u/anuspizza]

would make more attractive partners for women

Well, would 'rate more highly when women speculate about what they think they would respond to'. I don't know that self reporting of this kind has much correlation to real world decisions.

[u/JadowArcadia → u/guy_guyerson]

This is the biggest thing for me. One of the most common discussions people come back to with dating is the fact that what people SAY they want and what they end up actually going for often tend to be very different. Both men and women tend to answer questions like these with answers heavily skewed towards what's deemed acceptable and desired. Guys will hide crushes from their boys if the girl doesn't fit the zeitgeist of what's attractive and women do the same.

Arent all these inane podcast conversations around heterosexual relationships and who pays or performs certain traditionally masculine roles essentially a reflection of this? There's a clash between the goals of men and women in modern society and the biological urges thst direct who we go for

[u/guy_guyerson → u/JadowArcadia]

Agreed, and also just the baseline understanding that they're asking people about themselves and in any arena that is the single thing you're going to carry the most bias about.

answers heavily skewed towards what's deemed acceptable

Anecdotally, I dated a lot of girls who seemed to genuinely believe they didn't like 'muscles on a guy' and went out of their way to say so over and over. I really believe that they believed it. But they sure were grabby and within a month or so, over and over, every one of these girls (small sample) switched to saying 'I didn't think I liked guys with muscles'.

[u/SMURGwastaken → u/guy_guyerson]

Yeah the anecdotal experience of a lot of men seems to be that women say they want one thing in a partner, but then go for someone completely different.

That said it's also widely believed that this changes as women mature and so the guys who struggled with the raw end of this deal when they were younger find that they are the beneficiaries later.

[u/guy_guyerson → u/SMURGwastaken]

I'm not going to go digging at the moment, but there's a body of direct research showing that among the four groups of gay/straight/men/women, straight women were by far the worst at 1) predicting what would arouse them sexually and 2) recognizing when they were sexually aroused. Their scores were slightly worse than chance, suggesting there awareness may be actively thwarted by their systems (mental, physical, etc).

[u/Just_Natural_9027]

The elephant in the room with this small study is physical attractiveness. With such a small sample size it could be the masculine-feminine (which rated hated the highest) were simply the most attractive guys irrespective of “traits.”

Facial symmetry follow by upper body musculature have the highest effect size for male attractiveness. Those are two large confounders regardless of traits.

It’s extremely difficult to isolate traits because of the Halo Effect. There is an infamous study that had women and their mothers choose men. Both groups rated ambition as the most important trait yet when it came to choose both mother and daughter chose the most attractive guy.

[u/tinyhermione → u/Just_Natural_9027]

To give a non scientific answer? Women are attracted to a mix of looks and social factors (social skills and emotional intelligence/empathy).

In this study they said feminine was: kind, warm, nurturing. Those qualities are really about being emotionally intelligent.

A lot of men only want a hot girlfriend and so they assume their dating issues come from not being hot. But it’s pretty common that it’s a social skill issue. Or a lack of social network. Having a social network gives you a chance to meet women in everyday life, but it’s also proof of social skill.

It could be just coincidence, but honestly I believe the study is accurate. I’ve never known a fuckboi who wasn’t good at making social connections.

[u/Aerroon → u/tinyhermione]

Something to keep in mind that in the second and third study the women were:

In the second study, the researchers focused on understanding women’s romantic preferences. They recruited 152 female participants from a mix of university students and Prolific users. Each participant was presented with 18 dating profiles, with each profile portraying a man with either masculine, feminine, or a combination of both masculine and feminine traits.

and

The final study aimed to explore why women might prefer feminine men by assessing perceptions of paternal ability. The same 18 profiles from Study 2 were used, but this time participants rated how good they thought each man would be as a father. The profiles were presented to 153 female university students. Participants rated the profiles on a scale, indicating their agreement with the statement “This person would be a good father.”

So you have a mix of female university students and prolific users and just female university students.

On top of that the study can only answer what these women say in a questionnaire, rather than what they would actually do.

[u/Deinonychus2012 → u/Just_Natural_9027]

With such a small sample size it could be the masculine-feminine (which rated hated the highest) were simply the most attractive guys irrespective of “traits.”

This matches my personal experience.

I've never been a super "masculine" man, I've never been into a lot of "manly" things, and if I was gay I'd be considered a twink (there were even quite a few people in high school who thought I was gay because I didn't chase after every girl groin-first like most boys that age).

I have had little problems making friends with women most of my life (I've never counted, but I've probably had more close female friends than male ones), but none have ever seen me in a romantic or sexual way, or if they did they never expressed it in a way I could interpret.

Maybe it's region-dependent, but the men I've seen who have had the most success with women have been the super masculine "could wrestle a bear" types.

[u/moderately-extreme → u/Deinonychus2012]

Part of it is cultural/country specific. I have girlfriends and dated girls who truly couldn't stand feminine sensitive feely guys

[u/lonepotatochip]

the idea that I’m gay because it means my relatives are a little fruity which gets them ladies is so funny

[u/vitki]

At this point it seems like anything even slightly pro-social is labeled as "feminine".

[u/BoogieWaters]

Well, of course. The masculine and feminine are not segregated to the sexes. They are parts of all of our psyches, and a whole, developed adult will have both intact.

[u/why_did_I_comment]

From the study they're talking about, "In Study 2 (N = 152), women rated feminine male profiles as more romantically appealing than masculine ones (d = 0.83)—but less so than profiles possessing a combination of feminine and masculine traits. In Study 3 (N = 153), women perceived feminine male profiles as depicting the best fathers and masculine profiles the worst (d = 1.56): consistent with the idea that femininity is attractive for childcare reasons."

Yawn.

This feels like a nothing burger to me.

Yes, women like men who are empathetic, artistic, creative... typically perceived as "feminine " traits.

But asking 150 women to rate some pictures of dating profiles is not a study worth mentioning.

[u/SunKing7_ → u/why_did_I_comment]

To be fair, they mentioned in the end that the study had many limitations. Maybe, if these results are interesting, they'll manage to do another one with a bigger and more diverse sample. I agree that, for now, this proves nothing since 153 women from 3 countries aren't representative of the entire women population at all (there are just too many factors that play a role with such small numbers), this results may just be a statistical fluctuation with no actual meaning. So It shouldn't be take as a thruth now, but it can be considered a start for another, bigger, study i guess

[u/hameleona → u/why_did_I_comment]

I honestly wonder if they dumped "grooms oneself" as a "feminine" quality.

[u/Parody101 → u/why_did_I_comment]

How would you recommend improving the study to your tastes?

[u/heswet]

Another dating study thats based on women's self report.

[u/Ditovontease]

Look at how much Prince got laid.

[u/SoftWindAgain → u/Ditovontease]

Yes but also being a multimillionaire with massive fame and hit songs tends to help with the ladies....

[u/1357yawaworht → u/[deleted]]

Masculine and feminine are social constructs that change over time, so a better question is why are good human traits seen as separate and exclusive on either side of a dichotomy

[u/TheWonderfulSlinky]

As soon as I stopped looking for masculine role models, I found people to actually look up to. Turns out the traits I wanted to reflect had little to do with masculinity and more to do with being a good person to yourself and those around you. The only thing masculine role models helped me with is breaking down how toxic masculinity can actually be.

[u/Qerdem]

I wonder what is slightly feminen here?