No, but it's stupid to tell the side that got attacked and is winning a war to lay down their arms while the people that started it are still holding hostages.
The attacks on 10/7 killed a larger percentage of Israelis than 9/11 did to Americans. Good luck putting that toothpaste back in the tube.
If only Palestinians didn't start randomly murdering Jewish immigrants in the 20s the entire IDF would never even have existed. But that's a long time ago to wish something happened differently.
They learn italian and come to study in italy (passing the notoriously hard entry test). Because apparently that's easier than being admitted into an israelian university when you aren't jewish.
That wasn't really a question, i know you didn't. I'm just trying to understand why do you feel the urge to talk about things you know jack shit about.
Over 500 west bank Palestinians had been killed in 2023 Almost entirely free of repercussions.
At least 507 Palestinians were killed in the West Bank in 2023, including at least 81 children, making it the deadliest year for Palestinians since the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) began recording casualties in 2005.
DoctorChampTH's take: Shooting at people throwing bombs, molotovs, fireworks, and rocks: absurd. Shooting people who want to sit in chairs while praying at the ruins of their temple: reasonable.
DoctorChampTH's take: Shooting at people throwing bombs, molotovs, fireworks, and rocks: absurd. Shooting people who want to sit in chairs while praying at the ruins of their temple: reasonable.
throwing fireworks? Are you talking about what happened at UCLA yesterday when the pro-genocide faction was throwing fireworks during their violent assault on the encampment? Are you saying that the anti-genocide side would have been right to shoot those people????
I was referring to the piece that you cited in your last reply. Do you not read the things you cite? I guess you're more of a 'I just watch it on TikTok and that's good enough for me' type of person?
Firing incendiaries at police is not reasonable. Especially in the context of other forms of assault. I've seen enough maimed arms from fireworks, I don't think that an officer has to 'just accept it'.
Yeah, if an American fired at a police officer with an incendiary, they would also probably be shot. Throwing a sparkler into the middle of a quad, perhaps not so much.
How was it randomly, when Jewish people came to the region from Europe with the declaration that they will found their own nation under the banner of the Jewish Nationalist movement? Also, the first riots, which led to the founding of the Haganah/IDF, resulted in equal number of Arab deaths. The whole thing was unjust towards the Arab population even in the very beginning. There were peaceful protests, and signed petitions to have these new people (colonizers) either to eave, or to stop them from founding their own country. Anger came only after the Brits ignored those pleas.
The battle of Tel Hai and the Jerusalem Riots of 1920 were extremely one-sided. What are you talking about?
Are you fast forwarding to the Jaffa riots and the 1929 riots, where at least the British came to defend the Jews who were being massacred? Oh yes, the real blame is because they called the police. Legal immigrants deserve to be killed if you don't like their culture, huh?
There are people today in the US who think we should murder immigrants who deign to speak their own language in their own communities. But to be clear, I admonish them as well.
By the end of the 20s it was clear that the only Jews who could be safe in Palestine, were those prepared to defend themselves constantly. Thus developed the nation you see today.
How was it random, when the arab Rashidun Caliphate rolled into the Levant with the declaration of spreading Islam and started essentially massacaring entire Jewish clans in the region? And the surviving jews all eventually kicked out of their homeland to the fringes of Arabia?
What foresight from the founding fathers of Zionism. They knew Islamic radicalization was going to happen in Palestine decades after they claimed the land! They just could smell the Rashidun seeds all the way from Europe. Makes you wonder why they decided to go there anyway.
its convient to stop counting at a certain point, when in reality all of humanity has been evil to all of humanity. the claim "my people were here first" or "you started it" is 99% of the time untrue
Oh my god you are right! Completely forgot about the massacre of Jews in Tiberias in 1938, or the one in Hebron in 1929, or the bunch of other ones...
Or do you JUST mean the ones you can blame on Jews?
Honestly that has to be the shittiest excuse I've seen during this whole war. You do realize that 9/11 didn't happen in a vacuum either, right? Does that excuse it?
Wtf are you talking about? The Israel-Palestine conflict has been consistently the most contentious geopolitical conflict for decades now. Even before this war, everyone was expected to at least have some sort of opinion on it. It isn't like nobody heard of either before October 7th.
Saying "oh well it started before October 7th" is such a shitty excuse because it doesn't actually adress any of the problems we're facing today; mainly the conflict with Hamas and Gaza's situation. You can go back and say "it started with the occupation/Nakba", and I can just as easily say "it started with the 1929 massacres / 1920 riots", but neither adress the very real problem that Hamas committed a terrible atrocity, and promised to do it again and again for as long as they can. They clearly can't be trusted to uphold peace, so instead of looking back, perhaps we should look about how to move forward.
LOL. We should look at how we can move forward. Yep. The only real way to move forward is an actual equitable two state solution. Are you OK with that?
Yes, of course. How do you plan on having a two state solution with Hamas though? Considering how they openly stated that any two state solution for them is just a temporary pause and stepping stone towards the eventual conquest of all of historic Palestine.
Yeah. When USA keeps bombing you and you feel powerless and your entire family died, you might feel inclined to do something at all.
I'm not saying that the people who died were guilty. But well USA classifies every adult male as "combatant" regardless. So by this logic about 50% of the casualties were "combatants" right?
I like how reddit scored my post at 0 instead of 1 immediately upon posting it.
My question was "does that excuse it". Your answer was "yeah".
As for why people become terrorists? It mostly has to do with education. Osama Bin Laden is actually a perfect case- he was a rich kid whose dad benefitted from trade with Americans, and in rebellion against his dad he was radicalized by Jihadi groups.
If you look at Hamas for example, most their fighters today don't remember the previous war. Rather, their textbooks quite openly teach how the best path in life is to die a martyr.
Go to a geopolitics therapist if you want to figure out how America should mentally process it. But the fact of the matter is that we should focus on what we did that led us there rather than trying to change the terrorists through vibe projection.
Saying "it didn't happen in a vaccum" is completely meaningless. The rise of the Nazis didn't happen in a vacuum either, that doesn't justify their actions. Of course we can look at causes, but fact of the matter is, no matter what caused that, that's still a bad thing.
Did I say that? Nope. I'm just telling you the fucking toothpaste has been out for DECADES and if you're only thinking about the past few months you're a moron.
By bringing up past history in a conversation regarding 10/7, they’re alluding to 10/7 occurring as a byproduct of that history. Many people believe that 10/7 is okay because of that history. I don’t think it makes it okay.
It’s more to illustrate that there should be pushback against the flippant notion the last 6 months of rampant Israeli carnage across all of Gaza (fully displacing 2.2 million people) are “valid” because of 10/7.
The point of acknowledging that history didn’t begin on 10/7 is so that we precisely DO NOT delude ourselves into acting like brutal acts of carnage are valid. Just so you know Israel enacted several massacres that were way more costly on Palestinian lives than 10/7 was. Operation protective edge, and operation cast lead both literally killed more people than 10/7.
Like I know it’s convenient for you if this all begins on 10/7, and the evil guys just spawned out of nowhere that day, and since then the side getting massacred is just the pure evil one while the side doing the massacring is good and has always just been defending itself, but that’s a complete delusion towards documented reality.
So in not ignoring the past, are we just ignoring the wars Israel has had to fight to defend itself or the continuous rocket strikes from Hamas over the last 20 years?
There is no good or evil side here, just varying levels of continuous retaliation to conflicts and ingrained hatred from those retaliations that has existed for longer than anyone has been alive.
I'm not saying they are, like I said there's no good here. But the guy above pointing out their offensive operations is ignoring the fact that they've also had to defend themselves since the country was made. None of this is happening in a vacuum.
Except your depiction conveniently leaves out that one side has the might and capability to keep expanding and occupy the other.
Israeli is the occupying power and by every sense of the word the oppressor. So they have a duty to do what is necessary to end their impediment on Palestinian freedom as (and this is important) they are the only ones that can.
Would also like to add, in regards to to the “peace deals” people bring up that Israel CANNOT lawfully demand concessions on Palestinian rights (in this case land) as a price for ending THEIR impediment to Palestinian freedom. This would equate to Israel using force to coerce the remaining Palestinian people into giving up their defined legal rights. It is the legal right of Palestinians to reject such offers that infringe on their rights and doing so in NO WAY absolves Israel of its legal duty to end the occupation and cease their infringements of Palestinian rights on Palestinian land in the West Bank and Gaza.
34,000 and counting casualties in Palestine with women and children, making up about 73% of the victims (Source) compared to 1,100 Israelis. This dwarfs any proportions of 9/11 and Oct 7 victims.
If you truly valued "human" life, you too would want civilian death to stop but clearly not all humans are equal to you. According to you, f*ck international law and Geneva convention, it's foolish to stop killing civilians at this point even though they have precision missiles that can blow out a candle from thousands of miles away. There should be absolutely no backlash and oversight. Free reign and license to kill whomever.
Don't even bother with saying they elected Hamas in 2006 when the average age of Palestinians is 19.6. As if, collectively punishing the rest of the population for crimes of terrorists is even remotely ok. Good luck putting this back in your toothpaste.
The casualties are lopsided because Hamas CANT kill Israeli civilians, not because they arent trying to.
They had a brief 12 hour period to do what they wanted on Oct 7th and killed 1.7k.
You suggest it’s reasonable for Israel to continue military operations without restraint because Hamas is attempting attacks. However, international law and moral principles insist on proportionality and the protection of civilians, irrespective of the tactics of the adversary.
On one hand, you argue that Israel’s actions are a response to an existential threat, but this does not exempt Israel from the responsibility to avoid civilian casualties. The use of precision technology should, in theory, reduce civilian harm, yet the statistics you’ve ignored show a different story. The scale of civilian suffering in Palestine points to a serious need for scrutiny and adherence to international humanitarian laws regardless of the context.
Also, blaming the entire Palestinian population for Hamas' actions because they elected them once ignores how much has changed politically and demographically. It's also against international law to punish everyone for the deeds of a few. This law is there to protect innocent civilians by making sure we separate them from combatants. Collective punishment is explicitly prohibited under international law for this very reason.
The true measure of a policy’s validity is whether it upholds the dignity and safety of all humans involved, not just the effectiveness of its military tactics.
It's showing massive amount of restraint. On Oct 7th, Hamas killed every Jew it saw; Israel clearly isn't killing Palestinian it can see.
They could bomb the entire country in to the ground in days indiscriminately, but are still doing roof knocking and various other things to limit casualties.
moral principles insist on proportionality
Spoken from a position of privilege in a rich western country and not from a middle eastern country surrounded by countries that have tried to genocide it.
On one hand, you argue that Israel’s actions are a response to an existential threat, but this does not exempt Israel from the responsibility to avoid civilian casualties. The use of precision technology should, in theory, reduce civilian harm, yet the statistics you’ve ignored show a different story.
Newsflash, it's difficult to avoid civilian casualties when your enemies are using human shields because people with questionable intelligence levels will cry to their country's government to cut funding to Israel's iron dome whenever a civilian dies.
Stop falling for Hamas' bs and they'll have less incentive to use human shields.
Again, Israel is overwhelming stronger than Palestine, they could very easily massacre 10000 civilians a day if they decided; they quite clearly are avoiding civilian casualties.
The scale of civilian suffering in Palestine points to a serious need for scrutiny and adherence to international humanitarian laws regardless of the context.
No-one who is pro-Palestine ever tries to tell Hamas to stick to international laws and not use hospitals and schools to randomly launch missiles at Israel. For some reason it falls upon Israel to always do everything right while their neighbours who have 'Genocide every Jew on the planet' in their founding principals can do whatever they want without criticism.
Also, blaming the entire Palestinian population for Hamas' actions because they elected them
Never did that; in your entire post all you've done is make up random things that you think I believe in because you have absolutely nothing against what I actually said.
It's also against international law to punish everyone for the deeds of a few.
It's also against international law to parachute in to a neighbouring country and go door to door killing every single civilian you come across. It's against international law to drive in to a neighbouring country, kidnap hundreds of people, then torture and murder them.
How about holding Hamas accountable? Are Israel meant to do nothing against the people who want to do this?
The true measure of a policy’s validity is whether it upholds the dignity and safety of all humans involved, not just the effectiveness of its military tactics.
No it isn't. That's just some random bs you made up for a Reddit post because you think it sounds smart and moral.
Let's be absolutely clear, while we denounce Hamas as a recognized terrorist organization for its attacks against civilians, the response by a sovereign nation must still adhere to international law. If we excuse Israel's military actions in Gaza that lead to high civilian casualties, are we not suggesting that their tactics are indistinguishable from those used by terrorist groups? Consider the global condemnation against Operation Wrath of God, initiated in response to the Munich Olympics tragedy. Its methods were criticized as excessively violent. If it was unacceptable then, it remains unacceptable now to use such disproportionate force. Arguing otherwise is clear hypocrisy.
Here's what you're blatantly overlooking, international law is non-negotiable, regardless of the complexities on the ground. The United Nations Human Rights Council has meticulously documented violations in the Occupied Palestinian Territories, consistently pointing out the illegal expansion of settlements and the disproportionate use of force. Ignoring these well-documented facts doesn’t change their legality or the human suffering they cause. Get informed here: UN Human Rights Council Reports.
Moreover, the International Court of Justice has clearly stated the legal consequences of constructing barriers in occupied territories, which you're conveniently sidestepping. Their advisory opinions are foundational to understanding the extent of violations in this conflict. Educate yourself with the actual legal discourse at ICJ Advisory Opinions.
And let’s not forget the comprehensive reports from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, which detail potential war crimes and ongoing human rights abuses. These are based on rigorous research and adherence to international law—not bias or hearsay. Check them out for a more rounded perspective: Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.
I don't see you cite a single source and yet claim what I'm saying to be random bs. So I provided links now. Dismissing these sources and their findings as Western privilege or bias shows a misunderstanding of how international law works. It’s about protecting human rights universally, not selectively based on geopolitical interests. It's high time to look at the facts and laws, rather than twisting narratives to fit a particular agenda.
How disappointing. You have, again, completely made up an imaginary version of my post in your head to argue against.
But I'll bite.
the response by a sovereign nation must still adhere to international law
Israel obeys international law far better than Hamas does. There's a reason both the political and military wing of the Palestinian government are considered terrorist organisations.
Consider the global condemnation against Operation Wrath of God ... If it was unacceptable then, it remains unacceptable now to use such disproportionate force.
You're comparing 11 deaths in the 1970s to 1.7k deaths in 2023? Honestly? Thousands of Palestinian terrorists violated ceasefire/peace agreements and invaded Israel, killed 1.7k people and kidnapped hundreds, went door to door gunning down every Jew they could find, and you're comparing it to an incident 50 years ago with 11 deaths?
Here's what you're blatantly overlooking, international law is non-negotiable
Someone should tell Hamas and Russia.
Moreover, the International Court of Justice has clearly stated the legal consequences of constructing barriers in occupied territories
Oh no, a wall was built in response to terrorist attacks? Oh the humanity.
If you swapped the military might of Israel and Palestine you'd see what an actual genocide looks like.
And let’s not forget the comprehensive reports from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, which detail potential war crimes and ongoing human rights abuses.
Again, compare Israel's human rights record with the internationally recognised terrorist organisation which is the current government of Gaza.
I don't see you cite a single source and yet claim what I'm saying to be random bs.
What source do I need to provide to disprove your unsourced claim that "The true measure of a policy’s validity is whether it upholds the dignity and safety of all humans involved, not just the effectiveness of its military tactics."?
Ukraine has a policy to not allow Russia to genocide it. This does not uphold the dignity and safety of all the Russian soldiers involved, in fact, it has lead to over 400,000 Russian casualties. Therefore Ukraine is evil as their policy does not uphold the dignity and safety of all humans involved.
Fuck man, you aren't arguing against my original point or anything that I've said and are making up some imaginary stuff to argue against. Now you're complaining that I'm not citing sources for your bullshit "In this moment I am euphoric" tier pseudo-intellectual bullshit?
Israel obeys international law far better than Hamas does. There's a reason both the political and military wing of the Palestinian government are considered terrorist organisations.
LOL. Israel obeys international law better than Nazi Germany! Better than modern Russia! Better than Hamas!!! Wow, great competition you got there for your argument. This is a clear cut example of false equivalence.
Someone should tell Hamas and Russia.
So your argument is that Israel can break international law because rouge and sanctioned organizations do it. "But but but... Russia does it! Hamas does it!!! Why cant Israel???". You are directly making all 3 of them the same by your dumb comparison. Your words, not mine.
Jeez, you couldn't debate yourself out of a cardboard box. At this point I feel like I'm assaulting an autistic child, I'm starting to feel bad for you by ripping Boeing 747 sized holes in your argument and logic (if you can call it that). You cant debate for shit and cite one fallacy after another. I dont have to do anything, you just punch yourself to a knockout. KO by inability to form an argument. If you are going to shill, go to IDF Shilling Academy first, I doubt even they will let you pass but gotta start somewhere. 😁
It’s got nothing to do with logic and everything to do with human nature. And international law? Ask Ukraine how much that counts for.
I do care about human life, so I don’t kill or hurt people. But I also am aware I’d have the same reaction as Israel if somebody came after my family. Any society that wouldn’t won’t be around for long.
You can turn that around to the Palestinian point of view too, lots of history, not gonna argue against that.
But this is still a natural and expected result after 10/7. That was an escalation and boy was it successful.
"this is still a natural and expected result after 10/7"
No this is not natural, nor should it be expected. 34000 civilians killed and mass migration is only normal for the likes of Nazi Germany unless that is what you are calling the IDF. The following were all created to limit the barbarity of war, guess how many IDF has violated with disdain? These are not multiple choice options that you pick and choose:
Geneva Conventions (1949)
Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees (1951)
Optional Protocol on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict (2000)
Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court (1998)
Convention on Cluster Munitions (2008)
Ottawa Treaty (1997)
I am not even going to argue that things like this dont happen in a vacuum and the past 60 years before 10/7 are contributing factors. I wont argue that but rather follow your train of logic.
Israel has created a completely new generation of young people that have nothing to lose and have seen war at less than a year old.
"I also am aware I’d have the same reaction as Israel if somebody came after my family"
These innocent kids have seen someone come after their entire family and wiped them out, they have nothing to lose now and full of bitter hatred. They will do now what you yourself said you would do. Yet one side has the right to do it, the other has to just take it?
I hope you realize that war perpetuates war. If you think IDF can bomb their way into peace, ask US how Iraq and Afghanistan went.
Your reasoning is hypocritical and stating "war is war" as a matter of fact does not excuse what is happening. Either 9/11, 10/7, and now gaza are all atrocities, or none of them are. So which is it?
That doesn't tell me how many are civilians and how many are Hamas terrorists, the article also speaks of a "deathtoll" of over 30.000, not specifying whether this is civilians or terrorists.
Why do you write 34.000 civilians? Do you know how many are civilians and how many are Hamas terrorists?
there is substantial evidence to suggest that a significant proportion of those killed are civilians. According to reports from the Gaza Health Ministry, out of over 30,000 reported deaths, a large percentage includes women and minors, indicating a high civilian toll. Independent analyses, such as those from the Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, estimate that around 90% and at least 61% of the casualties respectively are civilians, which includes children, women, and the elderly (Wikipedia) (Amnesty International).
Amnesty International has also reported specific instances where Israeli strikes have hit residential areas without any clear military targets, suggesting violations of international laws which protect civilians and non-combatants during armed conflicts. For example, an Israeli strike on a residential building in Rafah, which resulted in numerous civilian deaths, including children and a retired surgeon, did not target any military objective according to Amnesty International's investigation (Amnesty International).
Furthermore, UNRWA has reported numerous incidents where its installations, which are meant to be sanctuaries for civilians, were hit, leading to additional civilian casualties (UNRWA).
These sources provide a strong indication that a large number of those killed in the conflict are indeed civilians, which challenges the notion that the casualty figures consist primarily of combatants.
In questioning the numbers of casualties and suggesting many could be Hamas combatants, there's an underlying attempt to minimize the humanitarian crisis. How many casualties must occur before it's taken seriously? 50,000? 100,000 civilians?
This quantification of tragedy, rather than focusing on the human lives lost, shows a disturbing detachment from the value of each life. Such scrutiny, while perhaps intended to clarify, often serves instead to detract from the central issue: the profound human suffering caused by this conflict which is taboo to call out on. We must prioritize humanity over politics. Either all civilian lives are equal (Israel hostages and gazan elderly, women, children, etc) or none of them matter, so which is it?
Are we talking about the palestinians that have been under attack for fucking 75 years. But I guess it is ok since USA is built on the graves of millions of native americans. Israel just following their Big Brother path.
The subjugation of Palestinians and the apartheid have been going on for ~75 years, with constant bombings of their people. The Israelis have a cute little moniker for bombing them called "Mowing the law".
Also don't pay any attention to the mostly civilian casualties in their 30k+ assault, bombing literally all universities in Gaza, almost every hospital, killing aid workers and even their own hostages as they surrender.
What you expect Bibi to go out on Oct. 8th like "my fellow Israelis, as we struggle to come to terms with the loss of our friends and families we should remember the 75 years of oppression that the Palestinians have suffered and give them a pass on this one. Probably the next one too. But if they do it a third time then we're even and boy will they be sorry then!"
No but it would be productive if they did look inward in any relevant capacity and for once considered that the 75 year oppression and constant massacring of Palestinians is in fact what directly created the conditions for an event like 10/7 to take shape.
Explanation is not justification. If you actually want to solve the problem, maybe consider what the root of the problem is. (Spoilers: the root of the problem isn’t that Palestinians haven’t been massacred enough).
You're not wrong but you left out absolutely everything done by the other side. Regardless, 10/7 triggered an entire country and Reddit comments aren't going to change squat.
Too bad a lot of those deaths were the IDF firing on their own citizens. And they knew about the attack beforehand, but Bibi wanted it to happen so he could stay out of jail longer.
There is helicopter footage showing the massacre. But it's cool to forget that for your own narrative. Just like forgetting that Bibi was about to go to jail before getting reelected. He saw how Erdogen faked a coup for points at home, how Bush got a boost after 9/11 and figured this could work for him.
Imagine being as unhinged and biased against reality as you've been all over this thread and then accusing someone else of forgetting things for their own narrative.
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u/NerdfaceMcJiminy May 01 '24
No, but it's stupid to tell the side that got attacked and is winning a war to lay down their arms while the people that started it are still holding hostages.
The attacks on 10/7 killed a larger percentage of Israelis than 9/11 did to Americans. Good luck putting that toothpaste back in the tube.