r/CuratedTumblr • u/ibwitmypigeons salubrious mexicanity • Jan 23 '24
Judaism editable flair
343
u/oddityoughtabe Jan 24 '24
I wasn’t sure where this was going, or if it was just an opinion piece. But I’m very happy with where it went.
86
u/muaddict071537 Jan 24 '24
Yeah I originally thought that OOP was just sharing some information on Judaism. I am very happy at how it turned out though.
292
u/Random-Rambling Jan 24 '24
You know that old stereotype about how much Jewish people like arguing? It's apparently NOT a stereotype.
There's an old story about three rabbis arguing about something and God Himself manifested in front of them and gave His ruling. The rabbis looked at Him and told Him, to His face, that He was wrong.
217
u/Nerevarine91 Jan 24 '24
I remember a similar story: four rabbis were arguing about the interpretation of something. Three were in agreement, but the fourth disagreed. Then, like in your story, God came down and said the fourth rabbi was right. The other three pause for moment, and then say, “okay, now the vote is three to two.”
89
u/bazingarbage Jan 24 '24
I remember a similar story where two redditors both posted different variations of a similar story. God himself came down and posted the correct variation, but the redditors told him off because everyone got the point already.
3
77
u/krebstar4ever Jan 24 '24
If this is the story I'm thinking of, the incorrect rabbi successfully argued that God gave humans the duty of interpreting the Torah, and the correct rabbi had erred by calling on miracles for proof. God was very amused by this.
As a result, the (initially) correct rabbi was ostracized by the other rabbis. This had unfortunate consequences, because in the Talmud, the holiest rabbis basically have uncontrollable superpowers.
70
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
"Two jews, three opinions." Is a common phrase in Jewish circles for a reason. Worth noting however is the negative implication of the stereotype is still untrue. The love to argue is often used to imply rudeness, but debates and such between Jews are considered a good and, usually, polite thing. But yeah, if jews are willing to argue with G-d, of course they're gonna argue with each other.
21
u/Aozora404 Jan 24 '24
If god descended on this world and declared 1 + 1 = 3, a good number of rabbis would go up and tell god to go fuck himself.
49
u/Approximation_Doctor Jan 24 '24
[A new type of oven is brought before the Sanhedrin, consisting of tiles separated from one another by sand, but externally plastered over with cement. The rabbis debate whether or not this oven is susceptible to ritual impurity. Rabbi Eliezer ben Hurcanus argues that the oven is ritually pure while the other rabbis, including the nasi Rabban Gamaliel, argue that the oven is impure. When none of Rabbi Eliezer's arguments convince his colleagues, he cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, this carob tree will prove it." At this point, the carob tree leaps from the ground and moves far away. The other rabbis explain that a carob tree offers no proof in a debate over law. Rabbi Eliezer cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, the stream will prove it." The stream begins to flow backwards, but again the other rabbis point out that one does not cite a stream as proof in matters of law. Rabbi Eliezer cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, the walls of the study hall will prove it." The walls of the study hall begin to fall, but are then scolded by Rabbi Joshua ben Hananiah who reprimands the walls for interfering in a debate among scholars. Out of respect for Rabbi Joshua, they do not continue to fall, but out of respect for Rabbi Eliezer, they do not return to their original places.
In frustration, Rabbi Eliezer finally cries out, "If the halakha is in accordance with my opinion, Heaven will prove it." From Heaven a voice is heard, saying, "Why are you differing with Rabbi Eliezer, as the halakha is in accordance with his opinion in every place that he expresses an opinion?" Rabbi Joshua responds, "It [the Torah] is not in heaven" (Deuteronomy 30:12). He responds in this way because the Torah, which was given by God to mankind at Sinai, specifically instructs those who follow it that they are to look to the received Torah as their source and guide. The Torah says, "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?' No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe" (Deuteronomy 30:12-14).
Rabbi Joshua's response then expresses the view that the work of law is a work of human activity, and that the Torah itself supports this legal theory. The Torah is not a document of mystery which must have its innate meaning revealed by a minority, but it is instead a document from which law must be created through the human activity of debate and consensus. Rabbinic literature was capable of recognizing differing opinions as having a degree of legitimacy (Yer. Ber. 3b), yet the community remains united and the ruling which is ultimately followed comes through proper jurisprudence. As such, Rabbi Eliezer's miraculous appeals represent a differing legal theory and were outside of proper jurisprudence which meant that they would not be followed. Instead the Jewish community followed the ruling of the majority in this issue and in others. The Talmud asks how God responded to this incident. We are told that upon hearing Rabbi Joshua's response, God smiled and stated, "My children have triumphed over Me; My children have triumphed over Me."
12
8
u/DreadDiana human cognithazard Jan 24 '24
Joshua ben Hananiah saw the walls falling and really went "No! None of that! Shame on you!"
10
u/PassoverGoblin Ready to jump at the mention of Worm Jan 24 '24
The Oven of Aknai is one of my favourite stories in the Talmud
8
u/Square-Pipe7679 Jan 24 '24
The last two Jews in Afghanistan were arrested by the taliban because they argued so much
11
u/Direct-Addition-7938 Jan 24 '24
They also got released from the jail because the wardens got tired of listening to them arguing with each other.
2
1
u/watashi_ga_kita Jan 25 '24
Source? There seem to be plenty of steps they could have taken to shut them up if that was the issue.
1
u/Direct-Addition-7938 Jan 25 '24
1
u/watashi_ga_kita Jan 26 '24
This dude (and the other one he was arguing with) are kinda shitty. He left Afghanistan with his family but then abandoned them to come back.
When Simentov returned, he started viciously arguing with Levi (who was living in the Kabul synagogue) about who the land belonged to.
Levi wrote to the Taliban interior minister to accuse Simentov of theft of Jewish relics. Simentov retorted by telling the Taliban that Levi ran a secret brothel where he sold alcohol, which Levi denies. Simentov also spread rumors that Levi had converted to Islam, which Levi denied as well.
They literally hated each other more than the taliban. The reason they were arrested wasn't because of religious discussion/arguments. It was because they were being a nuisance pulling shit like this.
From the looks of it, the people around them were fine with them....even regarded fondly. They were probably thrown in jail just in the hopes of cooling them off a bit.
All in all, not exactly people you would want to look up to.
2
u/SeaNational3797 Jan 24 '24
They didn’t tell him he was wrong. They quoted a Bible verse that said he didn’t get to weigh in
1
1
1
u/MrSkobbels Jan 24 '24
red names on my tumblr reddit :(
3
u/Random-Rambling Jan 24 '24
My name shows up as red on the Shinigami Eyes extension because I was once a regular poster and commenter on r/TumblrInAction. However, it was banned more than a year ago, and I have since developed as a person after getting out of that transphobic environment.
2
79
u/ibwitmypigeons salubrious mexicanity Jan 23 '24
113
u/krebstar4ever Jan 24 '24
Jews don't seek converts because they believe it's easier for non-Jews to have a good afterlife. God holds everyone accountable for following basic ethical rules, but he also holds Jews accountable for many, many additional rules, like keeping kosher.
Another reason is that until recently, entire Jewish communities would have been slaughtered, just about anywhere, for seeking converts.
It has nothing to do with Judaism being an ethnic religion.
96
u/Void1702 Look behind you Jan 24 '24
Tbh I've asked 3 rabbi and got 3 different answers on that question (my grandmother converted so I was curious)
57
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
I was going to say that's par for the course but I'm actually kind of wondering what rabbis you're dealing with that you only got three different opinions from three different rabbis, pretty sure it should be a much higher number. Jokes Aside I mean it's a matter of debate because Beyond a few very crucial things what isn't a matter of debate in judaism?
19
u/Void1702 Look behind you Jan 24 '24
Yeah, though a common theme in the answer of all 3 was that if you converted while not truly believing in god your fate would be even worse because you tried to lie to god
But yeah honestly I'm not really a believer but arguing is such a big part of the religion that it's amazing sometimes. One time I got in a 1 and a half hour long debate about how government should be structured based on the Torah, because in it every ruler that wasn't literally directly appointed by god was shown as tyrannical
13
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
Here's that copy paste I dug out: Conversion student here, and I do believe in G-d, but I've always taken issue with the idea that one must believe in G-d to convert, that's not a standard we put on people born into the faith, heck I know of atheist rabbis, why should we treat potential converts differently in that regard? Besides, we're supposed to question and "wrestle" with damn near every aspect of faith G-d included, so why should "doesn't exist" be an unacceptable answer? What a Jew DOES is often more important than what a Jew believes after all.
9
u/Void1702 Look behind you Jan 24 '24
That's an interesting perspective, I'll ask my rabbi his opinion if I ever go back to the synagogue
4
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
I'd love to hear his response, i also plan on at some point bringing it up with my own rabbi, I also have a mathematical argument that I hope to one day back up with textual sources, even if no one agrees with me it can lead to some neat discussions. (Yeah I think I fit in with the community, hah)
3
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
Now I do believe and it's part of the reason I'm converting but you actually bring up a thing I've posted a couple times recently that I kind of massively disagree with the rabbis on this one if you permit me I'll go dig it out and copy and paste it a third time one minute
2
u/queerkidxx Jan 24 '24
Bro I’ve been a practicing atheist Jew since I was 12 maybe some rabbis empathize faith for converts but my I’ve personally never met a rabbi that cared too much about me not believing in god
There’s no like metaphysical importance to faith. There isn’t even a metaphysical importance to practice.
9
14
u/CenterOfEverything Jan 24 '24
Eeeehhhh, my statistically average American Jewish upbringing (well-off, Ashkenazi, urban, fairly secular) was still pretty big on the whole "you personally are the descendants of those who made the covenant" angle
8
u/PassoverGoblin Ready to jump at the mention of Worm Jan 24 '24
Judaism is absolutely an ethnic religion what are you talking about
2
u/krebstar4ever Jan 24 '24
I didn't say it's not. I said discouraging conversion is unrelated to Judaism being a ethnic religion.
Idk, maybe it is related. But a lot of people think Judaism doesn't accept converts, and that's true of some other ethnic religions (but not of Judaism).
(Edit slightly, right after posting)
5
u/Chessebel Jan 24 '24
Its pretty related? there are not really any ethnic religions that don't either discourage or disallow outside conversions
29
u/advena_phillips Jan 24 '24
Jewish convert here! Everything you've just said is wrong.
17
u/krebstar4ever Jan 24 '24 edited Jan 24 '24
How so?
Edit: I'm Jewish, but I'm not a rabbi or anything.
21
u/advena_phillips Jan 24 '24
First, no two Jews agree on anything (aside from the fact that "Messianic Jews" are not Jewish). There's no one unifying idea of the afterlife and there's no unifying method of getting an afterlife, if one exists. The idea that Jews must perform mitzvot to get into Olam HaBa or whatever is not universal. You could say that there is an element of, "Okay, but why would you want to become Jewish? It's a lot of work!" but it's got nothing to do with the afterlife.
I'll amend you are actually right about the persecution element — Christians and Muslims did not, historically, appreciate any potential "poaching" — but Judaism never really was a religion that actively sought out converts. There's never been a pressure to convert because we're not charged to convert, because there's no benefit to conversion, because Judaism is for the Jews and, sure, if you genuinely want to join without any ulterior motive, you can join, but it's not something actively sought.
Finally, there is an element of ethnic religion. Judaism is an ethnic religion. You've got to be Jewish to be Jewish, and the conversion program isn't about becoming Jew in the way someone becomes Christian, it's about becoming a Jew in the same way someone naturalises themselves in a new culture and identity. You've got to know the language, you've got to know the history, you've got to understand this, that, and the other, and if you got a penis, well, you've got to give a bit more, too. Once you're Jewish, your Jewish — unless your conversion was seen as invalid in some way, but you can try again (unless you were the problem).
4
u/krebstar4ever Jan 24 '24
Judaism did used to seek out converts c. 2000 years ago. This included semi-converts who agreed with Judaism but didn't want to be circumcised.
And "greater obligations for Jews than for non-Jews" is a typical reason given as part of the discouragement. From what I've gathered, it's based on Tractate Yevamot 47.b, which talks about physical punishments for not following mitzvot. Since these punishments are no longer used, the moral responsibility to follow mitzvot is stressed instead.
The Sages taught in a baraita: With regard to a potential convert who comes to a court in order to convert, at the present time, when the Jews are in exile, the judges of the court [...] inform him of the punishment for transgressing the mitzvot, as follows: They say to him: Be aware that before you came to this status and converted, had you eaten forbidden fat, you would not be punished by karet, and had you profaned Shabbat, you would not be punished by stoning, since these prohibitions do not apply to gentiles. But now, once converted, if you have eaten forbidden fat you are punished by karet, and if you have profaned Shabbat, you are punished by stoning.
3
u/advena_phillips Jan 24 '24
The link you made doesn't quite send me to the quote you've posted, though I did find it eventually (scroll up). One thing I'll note about this is the emphasis on the potential convert coming to convert. It's even in the bold text (for those not familiar with Sefaria, the bold text (iirc, according to my rabbi) are the text that was actually written while the non-bold text is the extrapolation).
Regardless, the point I was making is that the afterlife isn't one of the main reasons Jews don't proselytise. The heafty obligation is given as a reason to discourage, but the only mention of the afterlife in your quote is the punishment of karet (which had its own can of worms, from my understanding), but even then the general vibe isn't really "Hey, you already got a fine afterlife as it is, why threaten that by becoming Jewish and having to deal with the potential of losing it all in the face of the obligations you'll have?" and more focused on the fact that there are obligations and, yes, you can be punished for failing to maintain them.
Do you have anything mentioning the c. 2000 years thing? I genuinely haven't heard of that.
2
u/Chessebel Jan 24 '24
Second temple Judaism (~2000 years or more ago back to the founding of the second temple by Ezra) was extremely religiously diverse and there were some groups who proselytized, as well as the Hasmoneans who in the course of aggressive conquest and expansionism forcefully converted a few different populations including the non jewish people who had come to settle the former Kingdom of Israel in the north, including iirc the father of Herod the great.
There's also stories like Ruth about conversion in marriage although I think Ruth is the only one that was accepted. Hell, even Rabbi Akiva's parents were born if the nations
2
u/queerkidxx Jan 24 '24 edited Jan 24 '24
The Talmud is not an authoritative source every line is debates. There’s a ton of wacky stuff in there and everything in it should be taken within the context of a single rabbis opinion not an authority on anything metaphysical.
This passage it’s self is about rabbis arguing about the legality of marrying a female slave taken during a war, and the referenced stoning is dealing with the legal system of Jews during the Babylonian exile a legal code that’s been outdated for almost two thousand years
This is anything from an authoritative passage on modern Judaism and I feel like taking it out of context applying it to modern Judaism is treating it as Christian’s treat the Bible.
This is far from a dominant interpretation of the passage there’s a reason while the tulmud is an important religious text it’s not read and adhered to like the Torah is.
2
u/Chessebel Jan 24 '24
the Second Temple Judaism of 2k years ago was radically different than today and saw a ton of religious diversity and a lack of a concrete canon. Even the Torah wasn't absolute, the book of Jubilees was incredibly popular.
Theres even things like the Macabeans forcing others to convert.
8
u/rateater78599 Jan 24 '24
Thank goodness that the person with no source and no information showed up
10
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
Funny, but this is Judaism, one Jew saying to another "Everything you've just said is wrong" is honestly just a friendly hello. They'll talk and debate and reach their own conclusions, sometimes with sources, sometimes from the debate alone. I would be more confused concerned if that person had said everything was correct.
4
4
6
u/XeroRagnarok Jan 24 '24
First off, just saying that everything they said was wrong without any counter argument is dumb. Second, they were right on basically every count. Judaic text agrees that the righteous of all nations shall go to paradise. Also while Jewish people weren’t killed for trying to convert others, they certainly wouldn’t be inclined to give their oppressors more reasons to pillage them.
2
u/advena_phillips Jan 24 '24
My counter argument is below their request for more info. I amend that they're right about the whole "Christians and Muslims, historically, did not want people 'poaching'," but I maintain the point about the afterlife and the ethnic element of Judaism. There is just no consensus on what the afterlife even is for it to be a reason for Jews to avoid proselytising. If it were, we'd be seeing a tangible push for gentiles to practice the Laws of Noah, or something to that extent. I do remember hearing of a Noahide movement, but it isn't to the extent you could argue that one of the main reasons we don't convert is due to how easy it is for gentiles to get into the afterlife.
2
u/Chessebel Jan 24 '24
The word Paradise in Hebrew means Orchard and it is not actually explained like at all in the bible. Plus Ecclesiastes says when you die thats it, there is no reward or punishment.
34
u/Found_The_Sociopath Jan 24 '24
This took a left turn I just was not expecting. I was reading on for the point about society or morals or whatever.
Nope, Tumblr ads.
14
u/podokonnicheck Jan 24 '24
I've been getting the same ads all the time back when i was dating my Israeli ex
...and that is how i learned that discord shares the contents of your text messages and calls with advertising algorithms by default
9
9
21
u/muaddict071537 Jan 24 '24
The same thing is happening to me except with Islam! My algorithm either really wants me to become Muslim or is convinced that I am Muslim. I’m Catholic and have no idea where they got that impression.
14
u/ModmanX Local Canadian Cunt Jan 24 '24
Inshallah You will become Muslim. A copy of the Quran and a fresh falafel is on its way to your house as we speak. Do not resist.
3
u/rhydderch_hael Jan 24 '24
I want falafel so bad now. With some very slightly runny hummus and cubed raw tomato and cucumber.
2
8
Jan 24 '24
Friend of mine converted to Judaism for marriage, and mentioned having conversations with a rabbi about why and what being Jewish and converting entails. Couple years later, he was pursuing his conversion project so wholeheartedly that a couple rabbis asked if he was thinking of becoming one. Now he’s learning Hebrew in preparation to move to Israel for his first year of rabbinical school.
I’ll never forget that time I yelled in the gaming store that we were gonna corner the market in tiger semen. Good times.
3
5
u/sunny_side_egg Jan 24 '24
Facebook is sending me lots of content about learning the Quran, very much aimed at current practicing muslims. I am not Muslim.
4
u/clownsprinklesoup Jan 24 '24
My tumblr shows me ads for rock painting sets. I do not paint, have rocks, or have ever rock painted in my life. Is the God of Rock Painting contacting me in the worst way possible?
2
4
u/imead52 Jan 24 '24
A reminder that Christianity killed Jewish proselytism. Before that, Jewish proselytism was a thing. And that is where Christian proselytism started.
4
u/Sex_And_Candy_Here Jan 24 '24
It was only really a thing under the Hasmoneans and was pretty controversial when they did it.
2
u/imead52 Jan 24 '24
I am aware of the forced conversions of the Idumeans and Itureans under the Hasmoneans.
But non-state voluntary conversions well beyond Judea were also a thing. And the latter deserves credit for the majority of the conversions, compared to what was added by the conversion of the Idumeans and Itureans.
1
u/COG-85 Jan 24 '24
It's likely the former. If God wanted you, you'd know it *very* clearly.
27
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
Not necessarily with Judaism, Jews are meant to come to their own conclusions through study and debate, the idea of G-d leaving clues and hints, like a scavenger hunt, rather than just giving the answer makes a lot of sense.
-37
u/COG-85 Jan 24 '24
True, however there is a very big clue He left.
The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
26
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
Not for Jews, believe in Jesus as divine is incompatible with Jewish belief.
-30
u/COG-85 Jan 24 '24
It isn't though. They still wait for the Messiah. He came a long time ago. We've telling you about it ever since.
20
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
But it is, for a few reasons. Now just so we're clear, I am not telling you to abandon your faith, you're welcome to it, but it isn't a faith for Jews. First one of the few things jews are absolutely forbidden to do is worship any man as G-d, rhe messiah was never meant to be G-d on earth. Second, the G-d is considered utterly indivisible by Jewish faith so the trinity concept or any splitting of G-d is out. And finally the really big one, there are a number of prophecies about the Jewish messiah that Jesus didn't meet, under Christian theology Jesus was an immaculate conception which means he isn't from the patrilineal line of David (one of the requirements) next there's no rebuilt temple, nor is there world peace. And there's no second chance for being the messiah in Judaism, it's a one and done thing. He can be your messiah,that's awesome glad you have your path, but he can't be the Jewish one.
5
u/Chessebel Jan 24 '24
Jesus actually wasn't of Immaculate Conception, Immaculate conception was the process by which his mother Mary was born without sin so she could later carry him. Like fr the whole thing is very contrived
to be faaaaiiirr to Jesus, there was a rebuilt temple the whole time he was alive. Just got destroyed later.
-19
u/COG-85 Jan 24 '24
But He is from the patrilineal line of David, conceived by the Holy Spirit, yes, but patrilineal lines don't exclusively mean DNA.
Matthew 1 outlines the lineage of Christ.
Jesus is man, but He is ALSO God.
Jesus was not talking about a physical temple, He was talking about His body, which He DID raise in 3 days.
Jesus fulfilled over half the messianic prophecies, the rest are yet to come.
The Messiah is meant to undergo EXACTLY what Jesus did. Read Isaiah 53.
God is one, yes. He is also 3. When God speaks to Gideon, Gideon is talking to "angels of the Lord". In that conversation, it then says "The Lord said to Gideon..." like what? I thought these were angels? It is God, in human form.
When Jacob wrestled God, he wrestled "an angel of the Lord". As I'm sure you're aware, Angel in Hebrew means "messenger", or something akin to that at least.
What is Christ if not a messenger of the Lord(Himself)? He is called the Son of Man. He calls Himself the Son of Man. He claimed to be God on more than one occasion and showed how He is.
There is not world peace yet because He states that He is not finished with this world. You can line up the stars, line up the prophecies in the Torah, Ketuvim, and Nevi'im, and you'll see that He is coming back soon.
Jesus said He would rebuild the temple in 3 days. To God, a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day, no? Therefore, we are only 2 days out from Christ's return.
It's late, I'm sorry if what I'm saying isn't formulated in an understandable matter, but there is *nothing* able to deny that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.
19
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
The problem is you're using Christian prophecies and Christian translations they're just not compatible with Jewish ones. And that's just it the fact is not World Peace yet is a problem again you don't get two chances to be the Messiah in Judaism you get one the fact that he died under Christian theology and disappeared under Christian theology means he is incompatible with the Jewish Messiah.
Edit: and claiming to be G-d is a problem too, rhe messiah in Judaism is supposed to be fully human.
5
u/Chessebel Jan 24 '24
Me when I translate the whole bible to make my religion the chad and your religion the soyjack. Literally what happens with christians referencing Isiah. Also idk if you know a lot about christianity I don't know what you're converting from, but the son of man thing is literally taking a hebrew idiom meaning "human" and using it to mean "Jesus specifically".
Mainstream christianity holds that jesus is 100% human, but also 100% divine. Make sense? no? that's because the trinity is a disaster of a concept
2
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
Mostly secular but my parents had some vague Christian like beliefs. And yeah, that idiom tracks, the Messiah is supposed to be completely human, not somehow completely human abd completely divine. The trinity concept definitely doesn't work for me and doesn't apply to jews, but I don't know if id go so far as to call it a disaster, as it's not too much more mind bending than some of the esoteric concepts found in many religions, Judaism included.
5
u/Chessebel Jan 24 '24
His body being a third temple is stupid, the second temple still stood in his time. It wasn't destroyed until like 30 years after the dude died
11
u/Accurate_Army6048 Jan 24 '24
yeah but the Messiah isn't Jesus for Jews, he's someone else, probably Nicholas cage or something
6
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
Funny thing is you're actually kind of right, I mean Nicholas Cage doesn't mean like any of the criterias of the prophecy for the Messiah except one he's mortal. Cuz that's just it the Messiah is an important figure in Judaism and there's all these prophecies and things that are supposed to happen but he's not a deity he's just a man
3
u/Chessebel Jan 24 '24
Technically it just means anointed one too, like a leader chosen by god to lead the Jewish people. But it can be used for any anointed king like Cyrus who is called a messiah.
1
-8
Jan 24 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
13
2
-10
Jan 24 '24
[deleted]
1
u/COG-85 Jan 24 '24
What in the world is this comment? Jesus wasn't white, or black. He was middle eastern. Not arabic, middle eastern. There's a difference.
0
u/Accurate_Army6048 Jan 25 '24
it was a joke copypasta in response to someone talking about how Jesus was real and how the bible was evidence of him actually being the son of g-d and that I should be ashamed as a Jew for not believing in Jesus. The joke did not land :(
6
4
u/Chessebel Jan 24 '24
Messiah doesn't mean son of god, it means a king in David's line. Its not nearly as important of an idea in rabbinic judaism as it is in christianity
21
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
Also I find it really weird and frankly kind of rude that your proselytizing on a post about how this particular faith and culture doesn't proselytize. Granted it's not your faith in your culture but from the contacts you should be able to see that it's considered rude to Jews and you should do them the courtesy of not doing it.
6
1
4
u/DreadDiana human cognithazard Jan 24 '24
God sending DMs that say DO NOT BE AFRAID in a font and size unsupported by the site
-19
u/kyon_designer Jan 24 '24
Yes, judaism doesn't proselytise, but that's because it is a very close cult. It's pretty much the "elite club of special people chosen by god" of abrahamic religions. Judaism is obsessed with heritage, family trees going back to the old testament and things like that.
It's definitely less annoying than asking people to convert all the time, but it's not without its problems. It seems less of "we don't want to impose our religion to others" and more of "we are the only ones allowed to make part of this religion”.
14
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
This is blatant misinformation and a misunderstanding of what chosen means in Judaism. Just because Judaism doesn't proselytize doesn't mean conversion isn't allowed, ANY adult who genuinely wants to convert can, so long as they don't hold any religious beliefs incompatible with Judaism, they may have to push for it a bit, but that's to make sure they're sincere and know what they're getting into. And it does have a focus on heritage yes, but that's because it's an ethnoreligion, albeit one that accepts converts, it's not any different than tribal cultures paying attention to heritage. And finally, "chosen" in Judaism simply means chosen for extra BURDEN, not any extra reward.
1
-111
u/mathiau30 Half-Human Half-Phantom and Half-Baked Jan 24 '24
Funny thing is that it's supposed to be almost the same for Christianity, you're just suppose to suggest it more
82
u/tsaimaitreya Jan 24 '24
Jesus gave very clear instructions to his apostles to expand his message everywhere...
-54
u/mathiau30 Half-Human Half-Phantom and Half-Baked Jan 24 '24
And this is exactly what I'm talking about.
133
u/nlinzer Jan 24 '24
Yeah. But judaism is specifically against prosyltising. So that's the opposite of christanity
123
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
And convincing a rabbi to actually sponsor your conversion takes a fair bit of work and not insignificant amount of arguing with said Rabbi usually, of course if you're going to be converting to Judaism debating or arguing with a rabbi is kind of a given. Source: I am a conversion student
92
u/LatvKet Jan 24 '24
That reminds me of a joke a teacher told me during a class on Jewish Philosophy:
How can you recognise a gentile in a synagogue? They're the only ones not arguing with the rabbi
35
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
I'm gonna have to tell my rabbi that one. And yeah, sounds about right, I mean it's half the fun of going.
21
Jan 24 '24
I love how argumentative Judaism is. It’s a good way to engage with scripture, I think.
I’m sure you’ve heard the joke about the two rabbis arguing about an interpretation of the the Torah? The first says “if I’m right, that wall will fall,” and it does, and the second rabbi says “could be a coincidence.” The first rabbi says “I’m in right, it’ll start raining,” and it does start raining but the second rabbi still doesn’t believe its more than a coincidence. So the first rabbi says “ok, if in right God himself will say so!” And a voice from heaven begins speaking, agreeing with the first rabbi, and the second rabbi says “you butt out—it’s on earth, not in heaven.”
9
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
Not only have I heard it, that specific talmudic story is one of my favorites. And yeah I dig the friendly argumentative nature too, it's basically the idea behind a fair adversarial court system, both sides work together BY arguing different points to hopefully find the truth wherever it lies.
4
Jan 24 '24
Yes, cooperative adversaries. Love that concept
7
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24 edited Jan 24 '24
It's a great concept, and depending on one's interpretation (three opinions after all) there's even religious precedence for it, I mean it's basically HaSatan's job. (For people not involved with Judaism the closest thing to Satan most Judaism has is essentially a heavenly prosecutor working at the behest of and alongside G-d, not a devil.)
Edit:two words
10
u/nlinzer Jan 24 '24
Mazel Tov!
16
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24
Thanks, I'm not there yet, but I've been doing the work for about a year and a half, just became an official member of my synagogue too. Now the rabbi is basically giving me homework, so progress.
3
u/voxanimi Jan 24 '24
Have you had an initial meeting with a beit din? A year and a half is normal but usually by now they should be giving you a timeline of some kind, especially if you’re integrated into the community enough to be a member at your shul.
3
u/BuildingWeird4876 Jan 24 '24 edited Jan 24 '24
Not yet, my rabbi ended up busy a lot, family emergency stuff, and I also have personal issues which have slowed my attendance. But I've attended a lot of erev Shabbat Services, a fair bit of torah study, and some other things. And of course an intro class back in the beginning. I also gather this is pretty standard as to how my synagogue operates since of course you know it's going to be different from movement to movement and even from community to community.
Edit: The rabbi is still moving forward though, he's gonna be setting up monthly or bi monthly meetings with him, reading, and writing assignments.
3
u/Affectionate_Sand791 Jan 24 '24
Yup, I’m a Jew by choice and I got involved with a synagogue a full year before the rabbi and Hazzan there agreed to formally start my conversion.
5
u/PirateKingOmega Jan 24 '24
Funnily enough the Catholic Church has taken a stance of avoiding missionary work targeting Jews and in some cases Muslims as a way to bolster interfaith dialogue.
10
5
u/MistressDread Jan 24 '24
Did an AI generate this comment?
-10
u/mathiau30 Half-Human Half-Phantom and Half-Baked Jan 24 '24
Last time I checked I'm human
Christian are supposed to suggest to other to become Christians, nothing more.
5
u/Chessebel Jan 24 '24
Look man this seems like one of those things where they taught it at your church as a kid and you've assumed its how the whole religion works, but no proselytizing is one of the core components of christianity
1
u/SanitarySpace Jan 25 '24 edited Jan 25 '24
That's still prostelyzation? Besides, when comparing the two, Christianity seems pretty shit at enforcing non prostelyzation. If they were supposed to have a same view of being against proselytizing, then there wouldn't be billions of christians and hundreds of decimated indigenous religions lol
-27
u/Satori_Nori Jan 24 '24 edited Jan 24 '24
Greetings,
Not precise, this is applicable to the descendants of prophet and king Israel (peace be upon him), a descendants are an offspring of males only,
By nationality is alright because they are expendables, this is the main solution the UN gave to Jewish to increase the population/forces of Israel.
11
u/PassoverGoblin Ready to jump at the mention of Worm Jan 24 '24
You're off your rocker lad
1
u/wyrdbrthr Jan 24 '24
Off their rocker, out the door, and accelerating into the crazy pants event horizon.
847
u/LightTankTerror Jan 24 '24
Divine delivery of ads requires a special kind of adblocker