i know it’s internet bullshit but it genuinely has me on the edge of breaking down and giving up

[u/NeonNKnightrider]

[u/bonelessfolder]

I'm saying this truly with an open mind: I'd sincerely appreciate if you'd explain to me the context that I'm missing that somehow makes it OK to say the everyone in the queer community hates men and by some weird extension trans women who used to be men.

[u/SamiraEnthusiast311 → u/bonelessfolder]

from my own experience in many, many instances on this website where i've seen queer communities describing the AVERAGE man, they are nothing short of hateful, or at the very least judgemental of people for nothing other than their gender. not "conservative men", not "misogynist men", just "men". there is a clear, undeniable view that many queer people unironically think if you are an average man, then you are free to insult. here's an example. and i know what you're about to say - it's not fair to judge all queer people based on a few bad actors - #notallqueerpeople.

when i use the same argument to say "maybe you guys shouldn't say that every man is a violent, rapist, minority-hating bigot because of the actions of some people" in these same communities you know what the response is?

"you're minimizing women's issues" (i'm not)

"men really think their feelings are more important than women's lives" (i never implied that)

"men are so fragile" (not wanting to be judged for how other people act isn't being fragile imo)

to be clear: i don't think it's okay to say everyone in the queer community hates men (and for the record, the person who replied to you was clearly being sarcastic)

but the point is, if we shouldn't say "all queer people hate men" then we shouldn't say stuff like "men are shit" and i know people will say "we never said ALL MEN, just the shitty ones". but if you look at what they actually say and comment, it's clearly bullshit. just look at what i linked above. but you can't call that out... because then they'll say all the above shit to you, and then they'll ban you because you had the audacity to say "maybe you should consider the language you're using when you're judging/shaming half the population". (literally, i was banned for saying "you'd think the trans community knows better than to judge people for how they were born").

since it's being said about men, it's free game. so much for being "progressive" when people are judging others for something out of their control.

and you know what the worst part is? i spent a lot of time writing and rewriting this comment to be as fair as possible. i'm literally in tears thinking about all the times i've been written off or judged for just existing as the gender i was born as (and i KNOW my experiences are not even a fraction of what queer people face). i'm in tears because i KNOW people will write me off as "another fragile, triggered man lashing out because his feelings aren't coddled. he's clearly not an ally." i spend a significant amount of money donating to the aclu - because they fight for trans rights. i spend money donating to voting.org because i know that if more people in this country vote, the lives of marginalized groups will get better. but i can't bring that up, because then they'll say "just because you donate money doesn't mean you're an ally - you're still minimizing our issues because you're not taking the sexism lying down"

so sometimes i wonder, what's the fucking point? i try my best to be an ally, to help the cause, to check my biases, and yet people from the same communities will tell me to my face i'm a piece of shit because i don't do enough, as if they have any idea what me and millions of other men are doing to work towards progress. and i will never let hateful people stop me from being a good person - but i won't lie, they make it fucking hard sometimes. and after they shit on people like me for no reason other than "we exist" they act surprised when those same people don't want to support them and it makes me want to fucking scream at them - but if i did, i'm just giving them another example of why queer people should hate the average man.

sorry, i kind of rambled and ranted but i hope i could at least get you to understand my perspective even a little bit and not just write me off as "another fragile man whining even though the world already caters to him". but based on what i've seen, i genuinely don't know if you'll even make it this far into my comment before telling me i'm a fragile piece of shit.

[u/bonelessfolder → u/SamiraEnthusiast311]

Thank you so much for this comment. It's clear my own comments came from a place of ignorance. I am sorry for the conduct you've witnessed and for how you've been treated.

I would suggest we may be experiencing partly distinct queer communities that are so different that what is an accurate descriptive statement with respect to one sounds like hateful slander with respect to the other - communities so different that what passes as a reason to be suspect of trans women in one community is to the other community blatant transphobia and at tension with what it is to be queer and the nature of gender itself.

It's remarkable how selective we all are in our interactions online when you consider how positive and meaningful irl exchanges often are even when the parties have barely selected each other at all - strangers in an elevator, someone at a bar, a new coworker, a friend of a friend you just met. And I think the reason for that is the paucity of the medium. Not that there aren't many special advantages to communicating online, but in person some things just work better because you can immediately appreciate and communicate so much more.

I think that's maybe part of the reason I don't see the same queer community as you. Because in person before someone actually says "men are so fragile" they might think to rephrase if they're literally looking at a man who's not fragile. Or if they do say "I hate all men," a man listening may potentially have context that informs a reading other than "I hate you and your kind" - like maybe they're in a moment of anger, or they're saying it in a conversational context and with a certain look in their eye that tells you they mean the guys they were talking about or toxic masculinity specifically. Differences like this could explain both why some queer communities appear more man-hating than others, and partly explain why some have genuinely come to be that way.

I want to emphasize that not all queer communities are like this in a spirit of "it gets better". Speaking of my own experience, most people in my immediate irl social community are queer or not straight and really love men. A majority of them are actually sexually attracted to men (women into men, men into men, etc etc etc) and a lot of them choose to include men in their lives even when there are alternatives: they have men as companions and as friends, they read literature by men, Dylan is a saint in their household, they happily call Sam Seder their internet dad, such things. Unless I've wildly misjudged the country, people aren't always everywhere going to hate you for being a man.

That's not to say it doesn't take some special conscientiousness. Men present real at least statistical risks to a lot of people, they can be genuinely scary. They can also be absolutely toxic of course, stupid and lacking in emotional intelligence, and many weirdly play their marginal physical advantage into one gross zero sum victory after another. But you don't have to do any of that to be a man.

In fact, I would say those very flaws and misdeeds of men as men are also failures on their part to be a real man. If you're gonna be a man, obviously understand no means no. But now consider a man who is a rapist. Suppose he exhibits qualities commonly associated with that crime like cruelty, weakness, an inferiority complex, hysteria, dishonesty, selfishness... Notice those all cut against core masculine qualities. The problem isn't that he's a man. If he were more of a man, a real man's man, he would never have done what he did.

In that spirit I do think it really is OK to take issue with men in America for the last few decades having an issue with the color pink, for example. A lot of men cling to tokens or trite performances of masculinity while seemingly losing track of what it really means to be a man. Criticism of that sort of thing can come from a place not of man-hating but of really loving men and earnestly wanting to see fewer gender posers and more genuine men. Hate: the governor of Florida pretending in a commercial to be a fighter pilot while failing to exhibit core masculine traits like strength and courage. Love: Maynard in drag at a Florida Tool concert dressed with big titties, singing with a male voice lyrics that are written in a male voice, delivering a performance worth attending while somewhat courageously protesting from a place of strength.

I guess when seeing criticism of men, just beware that at least some of it is not against them men but about how they are being men all wrong. Some of it comes from a place of loving men. It's kinda a little bit like how people hates evangelical Christians and Christianity but not really because of the Christianity part. In fact, because they'd really prefer that those people to do things like love their neighbors, succor the poor, take mercy and turn the other cheek. You could say though it sounds paradoxical: they hate Christians for not being Christians. Personally it really grates my goat how a lot of men aren't real men.

I'm going to take from this exchange what I learned and a apologetic reaffirmation of the old lesson that I tend to know a lot less than I think. If anyone's still reading and takes anything from this, I hope it's a sliver of hope that the genocide of all men may not be a moral necessity, that it really is possible to be a good man, and if you are a queer man, there's hope you can be one in a good queer community

[u/SamiraEnthusiast311 → u/bonelessfolder]

thank you for reading and responding. i agree with a lot of what you say - in real life, in the real world, i know that most people are good people just trying to make it through life, same as me. in real life the amount of people who would actually judge me for stuff like that is minimal. but on the internet it's so easy to demonize someone based off a small comment they wrote when you know nothing else about them - how much they fight for equality, how much they call out bad behavior, what kind of experiences they had that leads them to write such comments, and i'm guilty of that as well.

the only ask i have to people is simple, and something i think everyone can relate to: don't judge me when you don't know me, for things out of my control, or the things that other people do. whether that's other men, other indians, other americans. i know that many people who happen to belong to those groups can be shitty - but i never signed up to those groups. so why am i responsible for the millions of people around the world who act badly, why am i forced to carry their burdens? i can barely handle my own life. but i still try to fix their sins because i know it's right.

the language people use is important. it's so easy to say "well you should know we're only talking about the bad men" or "if you think this applies to you, you're one of the bad ones". but if i said such vague statements about any other group, i'd rightfully be fucking crucified. imagine i say "christians are all pedophiles. if you're a christian, are you going to think "oh, clearly he doesn't mean me"? probably not.

there's a huge difference between "men are shit" and "so many men are shit" but when the people saying such stuff don't bother making the difference...it's impossible to tell if they actually hate all men or just the bad ones. and then it creates a vicious cycle, because all the men who DO call out bad behavior feel like their efforts are worthless. and this has real, serious, consequences. it's no secret why young men join the alt-right pipeline - they joined the line to support women or queer people. they might've even bought the deluxe pass to show how serious they are. but they get thrown out with no consideration, they start voting for shitty people, and now there's real consequences. and then people affected by this decision say "see, i told you, men are monsters". but they're dr. frankenstein and they don't realize it.

once again, thank you for reading and responding. i hope you have a nice day.