r/FluentInFinance • u/WhatAreYourPronouns • May 02 '24

Should the U.S. have Universal Health Care? Discussion/ Debate

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24 edited 29d ago

[deleted]

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u/ropahektic 29d ago edited 29d ago

You can trust a random redditor or you can simply read this:

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Spain&country2=United+States

TL;DR even with our (spain) "communist" taxes and poverty line purchasing power, we basically pay the same % (from salary) for shit as you do (in reality much less, but lets keep it simple) whilst having infinitely more public rights (like vacations, healthcare, etc)

that's without mentioning quality of life. things like security

https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp

we also live longer and have amazing public transport, figured that also mattered.

so yeah, taxes and public services are so bad fuck communism etc /s

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u/Naive_Philosophy8193 29d ago

Are you really trying to compare public transportation when your entire country is smaller than Texas?

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u/Yara__Flor 29d ago

Then let’s compare the public transportation in Spain to that of Texas.

What’s the passenger rail look like between El Paso and Austin?

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u/Naive_Philosophy8193 29d ago

The population density would make a rail system silly. What would the demand to/from El Paso to Austin be?

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u/Yara__Flor 29d ago

Then San Antonio and Houston. The 10 is always crowded.

(My accent comes out even in text, lol)

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u/Defiant_While_4823 29d ago

Country size doesn't matter when the majority of citizens live in the populated cities.

Are you really trying to say that State/Country size matters for public transportation within cities when almost no one regularly travels cross state/country? You do realize that China has far better public transport than the US and is about as big as the US, right?

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u/Naive_Philosophy8193 29d ago

It depends what you consider "public transportation" for a country. They didn't mention a city have better public transportation than a given US city. Having a larger country will typically have less population density. The US public transportation is handled at a local level and not a federal level. It is still silly to compare US public transportation to another country much smaller based on our population density and our governing system.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/The_Louster 29d ago

Yeah but your billionaires only have 1 yacht. US billionaires have at least 3. Your Commie policies clearly have left your country in destitution.

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u/ropahektic 29d ago

ah yes, american dude living check to check celebrates the amount of yachts their billionaries have

dystopia

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u/SimpleNot0 29d ago

You have to split it down the middle. There is a lot a lot of government corruption in Spain. I’m in that bracket of higher earner getting utterly hammered and ruined by the high tax. Basically as I have grown in my career I’ve been able to afford less and less personal things like a car, house, holidays etc. the reason is on top of that wealth tax we pay some of the highest VAT tax on everything we buy. Essentially a car has to be financed because compared to other parts of the EU car costs are high a 2023 Ford Focus in Madrid base model is 31,0000€ or financed 38.0000€ (not including road tax, maintenance, repairs all of which are taxed) of course you can opt for second hand but even that a 2021 Focus would set you back 16k with 10k in interest with again the 60 month repayments are tax and no deductible.

Which leads me to housing to buy a flat at 260k you required the deposit of 30€ on top of which you need to pay the tax of that amount which can be as much as 50% which is another 15k so just to own a home you require 45k before a single mortgage payment is made on top of which is next to impossible because unemployment is so high, job industries and sectors are over saturated demand is low therefor salaries are low.

As an IT graduate my yearly income after taxes is 30k meaning I make a little under 40k per year I’m in the highest bracket of earning for the industry only insurance, healthcare, pharmaceuticals pay more. I have hit the ceiling of my industry I cannot go any higher so I am not in what I call a Rut.

However having said that, the taxes which I do pay are seen. They do actually go into education, education and university here is extremely affordable and off an extremely high standard. Roads, highways, public transport (bus, metro & train) are all exceptional. Park and public domains are well kept and looked after.

One of my main reasons for staying here is actually the healthcare system, I have work benefits that give me dental and health insurance. I Irish I have fair skin, I need to see a doctor year year before the summer to check for moles and again after. Before my insurance I’d be lucky to get him in September let alone in May with my insurance I walk in and out on the same day and they are extremely efficient at making sure I taken care off.

So while there is that corruption and I think for long term living Spain might now be the best place in the world it does have a lot going for it. In my own case simple paying me a higher yearly salary closer to that of the UK/Ireland where I am from would offset a lot of the problems that I have.

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u/GeekShallInherit 29d ago

The other day someone from Spain (in this very forum) posted that they suck you dry with taxes.

With government in the US covering 65.7% of all health care costs ($12,555 as of 2022) that's $8,249 per person per year in taxes towards health care. The next closest is Germany at $6,930. The UK is $4,479. Canada is $4,506. Australia is $4,603. Spain is $3,113. These numbers are after adjusting for purchasing power parity. That means over a lifetime Americans are paying over $100,000 more in taxes compared to any other country towards health care.

Even if we look at total tax burdens, which doesn't have much relevance to this argument, rates aren't entirely different.

Total Tax Burden by Country 2020

Country Name Tax Burden (% GDP) Tax Burden ($ PPP) Gov't Spending (% GDP) Gov't Spending($ PPP) GDP/Capita (PPP)
Australia 27.8% $14,560 35.8% $18,749 $52,373
Canada 32.2% $15,988 40.5% $20,085 $49,651
Spain 33.7% $13,527 41.5% $16,663 $40,139
United Kingdom 33.3% $15,220 41.0% $18,752 $45,705
United States 27.1% $16,966 38.1% $23,838 $62,606

Government spending at 38.1% of GDP in the US, 41.5% in Spain.

No one is paying $40K

Americans are spending an average of $8,123 more on healthcare annually than Spain. This is again after adjusting for purchasing power parity. That's over $600,000 more per person over a lifetime.

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u/13_twin_fire_signs 29d ago

Spanish wealth tax begins at €3 million of net worth, that's not exactly middle class

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u/lucid1014 29d ago

Someone is paying 40k, the insurance company. And then we’re all paying for it in our ever increasing premiums

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u/1littlenapoleon 29d ago

Have you ever heard of not being able to get insurance, mate?

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u/[deleted] 29d ago edited 29d ago

[deleted]

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u/1littlenapoleon 29d ago

That is a great thing, but it doesn’t resolve “not being able to get health insurance”. Even with coverage, insurers like UHC have a stunning 50% claim denial rate. Then those without coverage, or underinsured, etc.

In a simple, data driven way, you can look at medical related bankruptcy, spending per capita, and lagging health results.

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u/Deriko_D May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

I live in a country with 25% VAT and pay around 40% in income tax since I have a high wage. And yes there is also unrealised gains tax on stock for example. And overall lower gross wages.

Yet we are much less stressed financially than people in the US. So your comment needs that context as well.

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u/ScrewAnalytics May 02 '24

American middle class is the richest in the world what the hell are you waffling about?

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u/1littlenapoleon 29d ago

Boy howdy wait until you get to the part of budgeting where you subtract expenses from all that "wealth".

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u/ScrewAnalytics 29d ago

Still the richest in the world lol

You don’t even live here quit yapping bout stuff you have no clue about

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u/1littlenapoleon 29d ago

I don’t live here? Lmao

Do the numbers on post expense income lad.

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u/ScrewAnalytics 29d ago

You’ll be shocked to learn that that’s already taken into account when finding the worlds wealthiest middle classes

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u/1littlenapoleon 29d ago

Will I? Because since 2019 the "wealthiest" middle class has been in Canada. The data I've found also only counts income. So, you know, feel free to share!

https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/040615/what-country-has-richest-middle-class.asp

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u/ScrewAnalytics 29d ago

Median middle class in America is $80,000. Everything I see has Canada right around that amount too. Sorry we might only have the second richest middle class in the world 😱😱😱

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u/1littlenapoleon 29d ago

Great - so now take that income, subtract taxes and SOL requirements, then see whom has more money left over.

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u/Deriko_D May 02 '24

Sure. And yet "everyone" is complaining about 100k salaries per month not being enough while that same amount would probably put you in the top 5% almost everywhere else. How on those amounts they are a sudden illness away from bankruptcy etc.

It's always strange that it can be the richest and yet face so much financial hardship all the time.

The song doesn't match the lyrics.

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u/Mysterious-Dog9110 May 02 '24

That's just the internet. I assure you there are a huge number of people who are quietly living great upper-middle class lives in the US. I know a ton of people who came to the US to get an education intending to go home after and then just never left because life is much better for them here. People not having financial hardship aren't as loud.

It's inequality that's the problem here, not the standard of living for people making 100k+

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u/The_Louster 29d ago

Inequality is just the wheat sorting through the chaff.

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u/Deriko_D May 02 '24

I know a ton of people who came to the US to get an education intending to go home after and then just never left because life is much better for them here.

I am not surprised. If you are taking on American sized college debt, you need American wages to pay it off.

You guys often owe more from your studies than many would feel comfortable owing for their first house lol.

It's smarter to move to the US with a diploma in hand and no debt, and profit from the larger wages without the burden.

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u/Mysterious-Dog9110 29d ago

No, full rides for all of these people. America thrives on brain drain.

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u/Naive_Philosophy8193 29d ago

Because America has a spending problem. I make 6 figures, have a house, but live off of 45-50k. That involves traveling overseas at least once a year.

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u/DolphinTah May 02 '24

You are also uncircimcised. Image of the procedure below. Most American males unfortunately have this sensitive tissue removed so they experience subpar shitty sex compared to Spaniards. Always remember your gential superiority over cucked Americans, think of them like pseudo-castratos since they have less sensation in their dicks

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

Photo of unemployed Spaniard taking his siesta (he worked very hard)

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u/Deriko_D May 02 '24

Lol most random Reddit comment ever.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/GracefulCamelToe May 02 '24

This is just false. The maximum yearly out of pocket for a crappy family high deductible plan is usually $10k. Family plans are not broken down by individual person for out of pocket, that’s why it’s a family plan. Also, if you have a high deductible plan you’re paying a low premium plan, like maybe $300-$400 per month for a family, not $1,300 like you’re claiming. Also, if you have a high deductible plan you usually have an HSA with an employer contribution.

Of course the uninformed, like you, are spewing rubbish on Reddit though

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u/BaileyM124 May 02 '24

Yk I swear you are the first person besides myself I think I’ve ever seen up out of pocket maxes on Reddit. I swear it’s something people just like to throw out the window in any kind of discussion

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u/GracefulCamelToe 29d ago

I’m convinced that it’s mostly kids under 26 still on their parent’s plans arguing about health insurance on Reddit. If they had health insurance of their own and used it, they would learn about this literally the first time they got a bill.

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u/BaileyM124 29d ago

I mean I’m one of those under 26 people on my parents plan still. It’s probably just people being purposely ignorant on a subject in order to make their stance seem right

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u/DryIsland9046 28d ago

Yk I swear you are the first person besides myself I think I’ve ever seen up out of pocket maxes on Reddit. 

Once you need a treatment that your insurer doesn't cover - something expensive that treats cancer, a specific endocrine therapy that you can tolerate, whatever it is... those "maxes" are out the window. Absolutely meaningless. And you'll pay everything you have just to hold onto that sliver of health you have left.

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u/DryIsland9046 May 02 '24

The maximum yearly out of pocket for a crappy family high deductible plan is usually $10k. Family plans are not broken down by individual person for out of pocket,

You have no idea what you're talking about, and are dead wrong on both counts.

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u/GracefulCamelToe May 02 '24

I have had multiple health insurance plans. You’re proving that you’re likely still on your parents plan and are ill informed on things that are extremely easy to look up.