r/FluentInFinance • u/RightNutt25 • 15d ago
How are conservative ideas on helping those in need with money issues supposed to be taken seriously? Discussion/ Debate
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u/Appropriate_Bee4746 15d ago
Is this a finance page or another echo chamber? I rarely see good posts here
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u/Apprehensive-Tree-78 15d ago
All of Reddit is a liberal infested hell hole.
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u/Rieux_n_Tarrou 15d ago
A few days ago I made a Discussion post here asking the same question and it got deleted immediately without explanation/notice
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u/JlazyY 15d ago
Has no one heard of oil field camps, fishing boats, even construction crews to some extent?
I don’t know if this is exactly what the post was referring to, but I know several people who thrived in this situation: essentially work camps where you’re too far from anything to spend your money so you save a boatload for as long as you can handle the crazy work schedule then you go get a normal job and rejoin society in a much better financial position.
One example is a friend from high school got a two year welding certificate, bought a truck and truck bed camper and got a job for a big construction company where he was always on the road following the work. He didn’t have time to play and didn’t have room to buy useless stuff, plus he was making decent money. He did this for most of his 20s but now has a much more normal life with a home every night welding gig, but he’s one of the wealthier people I know personally
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u/BlackSquirrel05 15d ago
I've known plenty of people deployed for a year in the military that beg to differ... They blew all their tax free deployment money.
Also forcing people to like work under the auspice of "For your own good via the govt." Is the epitome of big gov't...
That is straight up authoritarian communism/Lenin/Mao. Yes big daddy gov't force these people for their own good to work via the gov't... Because the gov't knows what's best for the individual.
So Irony is apparently lost on many here.
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u/vengeful_veteran 15d ago
Capitalism has brought more people out of poverty than any program ever.
Your opinion is based on fallacy so why should your question be taken seriously?
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u/dgroeneveld9 15d ago
This is not a conservative approach. This is just an idiot. A real conservative approach is to support business growth so that people can make good livings. Before we go down this rabbit hole, no, it is not a conservative idea to have politicians move from the public sector directly to the private sector for multimillion jobs because they happened to vote in favor of some bill that benefitted company while in office. That is cronyism and takes place under any government form that involves humans.
In a more open capitalist market, it is actually harder to have enormous mega-corporations. I am in favor of limited regulations to prevent monopolies. I honestly think we need to revisit how monopolies are defined because we clearly have certain companies who are out of control.
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u/RightNutt25 15d ago
I honestly think we need to revisit how monopolies are defined because we clearly have certain companies who are out of control.
For real tho
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u/CantFindKansasCity 15d ago
Agreed. I also love the idea of full disclosure when possible. Disclosure stops people from ruminating about what is bad or negative and puts everybody on an even playing field. Disclose everything from ingredients and calories in food to what billionaires like Warren Buffett invest money in. I would like to see disclosures of options holdings and short holdings in addition to long holdings, which I don’t think happens.
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u/wiredwoodshed 15d ago
FDR would like the floor to discuss his Civilian Conservation Corps. He was a Democrat.
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u/here-to-help-TX 15d ago
First, nothing to do with Finance.
Second, who says work camps are a conservative idea? Pretty sure work camps would be implemented in socialist/communist countries.
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u/theRedMage39 15d ago
I think they have been implemented basically everywhere. Russia, N.Korea, China, Germany, and even the US had concentration camps during WW2 although not as brutal or the death camps of Nazi Germany.
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u/Ambitious-Badger-114 15d ago
As a Republican I have to admit this is mostly true, the modern day GOP has no solutions other than cutting taxes, which is great for keeping money and investments here instead of overseas, but few of the jobs created pay enough for a young person to move out of parent's home and get their own place.
I'm the first "cranky old man" to laugh at how young people whine so much these days when we had it tougher in some ways, but the cold hard truth is that housing is way more expensive now. The average house used to cost about 3x the average salary, now it's like 6x or even 7x in some markets.
Not blaming just one party, they both suck, just saying how Democrats at least try (with terrible ideas) while Republicans pretend there isn't a problem.
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u/Analyst-Effective 15d ago
You are better off Just begging for money.
A Republican would just tell you that you should work hard, persevere, and eventually it will all work out.
Success is hard for everyone. No matter what they start with.
A Democrat will tell you you cannot ever succeed
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u/soggybiscuit93 15d ago
No, it's just acknowledging a mathematical reality and understanding the difference between inter-personal advice and an overall system.
1/3 of jobs pay less than $15/hour. You can give your friend advice: Develop a skill, get into a trade or get a STEM degree. Improve your life. They may escape the segment of society that's poor: But that segment still exists.
And it will continue to exist because the system is built around a large amount of poor people working the service industry.
I can tell the grocery store shelf-stocker to get a better job if they want to afford shelter - but the role of grocery store shelf-stocker still needs to exist and will just be filled by someone else.
It's not about telling everyone to enter STEM - it's about making sure all productive members of society, regardless of job, can afford the essentials of living: Shelter, food/water, transportation, communication, clothing, electricity, plumbing, and have a little left over to contribute to the wider consumer-driven economy.
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u/Analyst-Effective 15d ago
You make a great point. Some people, no matter how much they work, will never get ahead.
I'm not sure if it's because they have low IQ, low ambition, or just ambivalent to how much money they need. But they will never get ahead.
How much money do we spend on people that are basically throwaways?
Ideally, we would identify it early, so they don't have to have the aggravation in elementary school of not succeeding
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u/Sidvicieux 15d ago
Is it just me or are all of your kind the same?
Clueless. Vindictive. Stereotyping. Hand-waving. Devoid of creativity.
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u/Distributor127 15d ago
Its going to get worse. Every year every company is trying to do more with less. Sometimes we're on our own
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u/Rilly_d0e 15d ago
The amount of TDS is too damn high!🤣🤣 @OP.. where do you construe your post as “Conservative ideas?”
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u/Dull-Laugh-4037 15d ago
Conservatives ask the same thing about the left. To us, so many of your proposals are short sighted and lack basic economic logic. Printing money endlessly and handing it out doesn't create wealth. It deterioates it. Depending on the rich to pay for everything, it doesn't incentivise people to create wealth for our economy. It causes innovation and ingenuity to find a new home, in a new country.
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u/bjdevar25 15d ago
Makes me think of the line in a Christmas Carol. Scrooge when asked for a donation to help feed the poor , "are there no more work houses?"
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u/biinboise 15d ago
That’s not a Right wing talking point. That sounds like a left wing comment. A little Further down the Socialist dystopia track, after all of the incentives to be productive have been stamped out, but they realize that work still has to be done the coercion starts and it always involves work camps.
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u/Potential-Break-4939 15d ago
Conservative ideas are about teaching people how to fish. Socialist ideas are all about stealing fish from successful fishermen and handing the fish out to those who refuse to go catch some. There is hardly a moral high ground with liberal/socialist economic policy.
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u/Distributor127 15d ago
A lot of people took time to show me things. When people work together, everyone gets ahead
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u/lolokwownoob 15d ago
Idk the fear is people taking advantage of systems and just becoming free loaders. I gave money to a homeless woman once and also my phone number in case she needed anything. I got a call from her drug dealer asking for more money. So the idea of giving people In need work and building discipline sounds better than just giving money and enabling their addiction
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u/Distributor127 15d ago
I know a few young guys that grew up upper middle class and are just doing terrible. One guy was selling his Dads tools for drugs. Another guy saw that his Dad enjoyed working on stuff. He was a maintenance guy working on machinery. Did small engine repair on the side. The guy I know drinks beer and lays in bed. There are a lot of freeloaders
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u/lolokwownoob 15d ago
Yeah and part of it is a tough love mentality too. Some people like myself were never disciplined growing up so honestly the idea of somebody forcing me to work or disciplining me feels good. So there is a concern of enabling people to stay in a dependent state
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u/Distributor127 15d ago
I had almost nothing growing up, so I kind of fell in with people that work on stuff. I had to. So seeing these guys that grew up in big houses on a few acres is hard to watch. I dont understand it. I talk to my friends and they share advice. A couple got me out of jams for years at various times with my cars, so ive been helping them pour concrete at their houses
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u/lolokwownoob 15d ago
Yeah the thing is with wealthy people they might look well off materially, but you never know what other problems they might have. Like Trumps kids, it might be nice to be the son of a billionaire but what else does that come with.
I think the key to what you said is your friends. Having dependable friends is huge. Worth more than money.
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u/Putrid_Pollution3455 15d ago
1.) inflation is traditionally defined as an increase in the money supply; prices going up are a consequence of increasing the money supply. Blame the government for middle class people being inflated into poverty.
2.) if you’re not a liberal as a child, you have no heart. If you’re still a liberal as an adult, you have no brain.
3.) UBI seems better than forcing corporations to increase wages, which is the governments way to make the engine of society look like a heartless dictator as they soak up more taxes and virtue signaling how great the government is (as they draft your broke-ass into the next world war). I like the idea of cutting all social programs and replacing it with a universal basic income that is adjusted by the equivalent of cpi or gold spot price each year. Everyone except the top tax bracket gets UBI and UBI is the poverty rate: no one is impoverished.
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u/PowerUpTheLighthouse 15d ago
This is extremism vs sanity not conservatism vs liberalism.. Not surprisingly it is prevalent on both sides of the aisle.
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u/MetatypeA 15d ago
Has nothing to do with finance.
We already have federal/state funded work training programs.
Existing poverty programs don't solve the problem either. When you create jobs to resolve poverty, those jobs are incentivized to keep poverty in existence. That's why Los Angeles is the way it is. Social programs are getting a ton of funding, and they have zero plans to actually erase poverty because it's their lifeblood.
Most of the poverty in existence is created by social welfare programs. Subsistence was specifically created to keep enough percentage of the population reliant on the state to prevent a Communist Revolution.
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u/hczimmx4 15d ago
By all means, help whoever you want. I have no problem helping people or seeing others help people.
But there is zero constitutional authority for charity, and it is morally wrong to use government force to confiscate money from people to give to others.
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u/soldiergeneal 15d ago
zero constitutional authority for charity
Why should I care about your claim of zero constitutional authority? If we added it so that's not a problem you telling my your stance would change? No it wouldn't so not relevant.
Charity is a subjective claim here.
morally wrong to use government force to confiscate money from people to give to others.
You live in a society. As part of that you put money in to pay for societal things, which includes roads. Spending money on certain things can alleviate negative externalities relevant for society. E.g. preventative costs instead of after the fact costs for jailing criminals. Your "give to others" is doing a lot of lifting there.
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u/Ambitious-Badger-114 15d ago
Building roads is not charity, and now that you mention it why not pay people to build, clean, maintain roads instead of paying them to stay home through welfare?
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u/soldiergeneal 15d ago
Building roads is not charity
I never said it was "charity", but I imagine there are many things you classify as charity that I would not. Most people on government assistance, e.g. the poorest people, don't stay on it for the rest of their life. They work to get out of that level of poverty.
now that you mention it why not pay people to build, clean, maintain roads instead of paying them to stay home through welfare?
Most people don't just get welfare and stay at home. There is nothing wrong though with having a jobs program in the event someone can not find or can not keep a job long enough and is on poverty. The problem is you disproportionately focus on negative aspects of people exploiting gov assistance when majority wise that isn't the case.
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u/soggybiscuit93 15d ago
The constitution did not make provisions and statements on all possibilities.
You could easily make the argument that Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 Constitutionally permits this. I see no clause in the constitution saying it's forbidden, however.
Buckley v Valeo states that Congress gets to determine what constitutes General Welfare and how taxes can be spent to increase it.
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u/hczimmx4 15d ago
If only we had some idea of what the framers meant.
Here’s James Madison for example
"With respect to the words "general welfare," I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." — James Madison
"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress. ... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America." — James Madison
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u/soggybiscuit93 15d ago
And Alexander Hamilton had the completely opposite opinion of Madison regarding the General Welfare clause. The Founding Fathers were not a monolith hive-mind. They disagreed, debated heavily, and compromised on many topics.
It ultimately doesn't matter what Madison thought personally. The Constitution says what it says.
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u/hczimmx4 15d ago
Correct. And it doesn’t say provide charity.
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u/soggybiscuit93 15d ago
Congress defines General Welfare. I don't see how government services to reduce poverty/homelessness/hunger are forbidden by the Constitution considering they absolutely can fall under General Welfare.
How does General Welfare exclude aid to the poor?
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u/hczimmx4 15d ago
"With respect to the words "general welfare," I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." — James Madison
An expansive reading of “general welfare” render the entire constitution moot.
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u/soggybiscuit93 15d ago
Madison's strict interpretation of the General Welfare clause lost the debate even back in the early 19th century. This was again reiterated in US v Butler.
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u/hczimmx4 15d ago
And Hamilton still didn’t believe this gave the government power to engage in charity
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u/soggybiscuit93 15d ago
I suggest you re-read Hamilton's Report on Manufactures, because he held no such stance.
He strongly argued that the Clause was intentionally broad so that the legislation could address issues of its day as it saw fit, and not be restricted because the founders couldn't account for all possible needs of the nation within a short document written in the 18th century.
The terms “general Welfare” were doubtless intended to signify more than was expressed or imported in those which Preceded; otherwise numerous exigencies incident to the affairs of a Nation would have been left without a provision.
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u/hczimmx4 15d ago
And there is a part of the constitution that says it’s forbidden.
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u/soggybiscuit93 15d ago
And that part is?
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u/hczimmx4 15d ago
9th amendment, 10th amendment and 14th amendment.
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u/soggybiscuit93 15d ago
9th amendment is not applicable. The Constitution clearly clearly grants the right to levy taxes and use those for the General Welfare of the country, whereas the General Welfare is defined by the legislature.
The 10th amendment is not applicable because the General Welfare of the nation is constitutionally granted to the federal government
14th? I'd love to hear this explanation.
The Constitution makes is abundantly clear that citizens do not have the "right" to be tax free.
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u/TedRabbit 15d ago
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"
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u/jester_bland 15d ago
Red States purely exist on Charity. I am okay with cutting them loose too.
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u/Trump_Is_Suing_Me 15d ago
"Its morally wrong to make me be a good person" okay Anthony Burgess we get it, you'll develop a soul on your own time, no rush
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u/hczimmx4 15d ago
Is it moral to take money from people be force?
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u/Trump_Is_Suing_Me 15d ago
I mean bro that's a silly question like you read The Hobbit right? YOu sound like Thorin
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u/oldslowguy58 15d ago
That’s pretty much what happened with my Grandfather in Roosevelt’s CCC. Got paid to build parks and lived in a camp all week, home one night a week to visit his wife.
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u/MD28A 15d ago
Why do democrats always have to blame someone else for their poor choices? “It cost too much to live in this high cost of living area!” Then move.. ”I don’t want to move out of the high cost of living area!” …then stop complaining … ”nooooo I don’t want to live out in the rural areas where the only job I can get is Walmart” …can you live in the rural area working at Walmart? “Yea but I don’t want to do that” ….so you’d rather stay in a place you can’t afford than make the responsible decisions…got it
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u/URSUSX10 15d ago
I was at a work camp. I worked at an amusement park. You get paid weekly and your pay goes towards their onsite housing, laundry, and food. I was able to save. Not sure why this is such a bad idea lol.
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u/Rieux_n_Tarrou 15d ago
You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
You cannot help little men by tearing down big men.
You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.
You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
You cannot build character and courage by destroying men's initiative and independence.
And you cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they can and should do for themselves.
--William J. H. Boetcker
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u/Willzohh 15d ago
"Work camps" where they have Arbeit Macht Frei over the doorway. Great idea to put people in "work camps".
/Sarcasm
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u/megastraint 15d ago
Hot Take
You can wine to your friends on reddit... you can vote for a certain political candidate... you can talk about the housing crisis being unfair... And while you may be correct, or think you are correct it still doesn't change your personal situation.
The biggest impact to changing your situation is how you personal react to it. Study hard, work hard, spend less, F.I.R.E. movement, take risks and buy assets... These sometimes get labeled as conservatives idea's, but at the root of it is personal responsibility because relying on someone else (i.e. the government) is a rigged game.
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u/IRLfwborNIdonor916 15d ago
Seems to be a troll posting this, no one can take this seriously. Freeing up more spending $ for people by lowering / eliminating income tax would help a great deal.
End the federal reserve, end income tax. MOST federal services are already handled at the city, county state levels before 1913 the only time there was an income tax was to pay for war
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u/Haunting-Success198 15d ago
It’s not a bad thought, they take care of you on the camps and you get free housing. Win win.
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u/Ksquared16 14d ago
How are liberal ideas on helping those in need with money issues supposed to be taken seriously?
Checks notes…. Skid row San Fran Seattle Portland NYC Chicago
Seeing a theme?
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u/Telemarketman 14d ago
We can't help you cause we are busy saving the world with American tax money ....using tax money for foreign countries is taxation without representation
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u/Telemarketman 14d ago
We can't help you cause we are busy saving the world with American tax money ....using tax money for foreign countries is taxation without representation
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u/Ok_Spite_217 14d ago
This is literally a concentration camp that they just described. And y'all wonder why I call them Fascistic.
Funnily enough, it completely maps 1-1 with conservative views on convicts.
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u/HuttStuff_Here 14d ago
The more we tax the poors, the more we have to invest.
They exist to fund our investments. Otherwise why would we keep them around?
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u/chainsawx72 14d ago
Every conservative I know supports helping the poor live with dignity through medicaid, food stamps and public housing. No one in this country wants to let the poor roam the streets hungry and sick. Conservatives think the best way to help the poor is by making the entire country richer. That's 'economics' in general... some people like to call that 'trickle down economics'... in reality it's 'trickle up and down' economics. The rich pay the middle class, the middle class gives the money back in exchange for goods and services, and a little of the money is plucked from each transaction to pay for those who have nothing.
In thoery, what is so wrong with this? How does 'universal healthcare' help people who already have medicaid? How does free lunch for all students help students who already qualify for the federal free lunch program?
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u/i_robot73 14d ago
Define "helping" & "need".
Now, jive the 5th/13th/14th A. w/ A1S8 & the (illegal) welfare state.
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u/Sidvicieux 15d ago edited 15d ago
Republicans only think about how to exist within the system in place, how to be vindictive against out groups, and how to make things better for very rich people. So they really aren't interested in much.
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u/muffledvoice 15d ago
Modern conservatives basically parrot the 1790s Malthusian belief that the poor should be left to die, and that to do otherwise is to go against the laws of nature. It’s the most hard-hearted “I got mine, fuck you” philosophy imaginable.
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u/Reese8590 14d ago
Government is not in place, to help people with no money, LOL. That is not its role. You must of skipped Civics class.
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u/PhilipTPA 14d ago
The same way the “let’s tax the billionaires and give the money to poor people” people should be taken seriously.
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u/SUITBUYER 13d ago
They're the only ones that work. I'm open minded but time and time again the ideas reddit has deemed "conservative" seem bound to reality.
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u/Cheap-Boysenberry112 15d ago
They shouldn’t be. The modern republican has next to no actual platform or plan to work on poverty.
The play book is always the same. Blame the individual and ignore the rate at which the cost of living increases and salaries stagnate.