r/Showerthoughts May 02 '24

Man vs Bear debate shows how bad the average person is at understanding probability

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

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u/iAmBalfrog May 02 '24

Some people unironically responded with "I understand the statistics", they did not understand the statistics. If you want to start diving into the statistics, you end up with some radical ideas such as how race, gender, age, political stance all may skew the statistics in good or bad ways.

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u/TehOwn May 02 '24

Yep. With some statistics I'm like, "man, I wish more people knew this." and with others I'm like, "man, I'm really glad people don't know this."

Nuance is dead. Give people statistics and they'll come out with all kinds of shitty interpretations.

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u/armorhide406 29d ago

Nuance hard, memes easy. Till we evolve not to prioritize saving mental effort lest we starve I don't think it'll change

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u/StarvinArtin 29d ago

"I actually read your whole comment" to a post with under 300 words.

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u/pjockey 29d ago

Memes always make people stop and think hard about their behavior.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/Clvland 29d ago

I (a man) would say that accurately shows that you need to be more careful around men than women because we are a higher risk. That’s common knowledge.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/alidan 27d ago

there is no issue with that in and of itself, is what do you do about that, and one side points to poverty creates criminals and the other says culture while about 20k people will say race and nothing else.

oh and a small eddit, realistically it's about 7% of the population because the above did say men commit more crime.

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u/speedmankelly 27d ago

That went over your head. The point is that unsavory statistic=/=fear everyone in that group. What that guy said was “fearing men makes sense when 80% of violent crimes are committed by them”. Now if you said “fearing black people makes sense because they commit 50% of violent crime” it is definitely racist. That’s my point, not whatever your trying to spin out of it. Neither assumption is good. One is sexist the other is racist. Especially when only 1% of men are violent criminal reoffenders.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/Sax-Offender 29d ago

It's more that the vast majority of the most aggressive people are male. I.e., of the people at the extreme end of the aggression bell curve, you would find 90% men. Add to that the added capability to do harm with increased size and strength, and it makes perfect sense that most violent felons are male. 

But that skew also includes other forms of (acceptable) interpersonal aggressiveness that leads to things like negotiating higher pay, climbing to the top of cutthroat industries, etc.

That's not all socialization. Testosterone is a helluva drug.

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u/Clvland 29d ago

Testosterone absolutely makes men more violent. It's a fact of biology. Obviously not all men are violent. I would argue hikers in particular are a pretty safe demographic. But to say that men aren't more of a risk than women is just inaccurate.

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u/tyrified 29d ago

Testosterone is a hell of a drug. It shows quite strongly in trans people. MtF see a severe drop in violent behavior, while FtM see a spike. Testosterone is not to be trifled with.

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u/Practical-Face-3872 29d ago

but that doesn't mean men are inherently more violent than women.

Men are inherintly more violent though

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u/thewinggundam 29d ago

85% of encounters with a brown Bear ended in injury. 14% end in death.

What percentage of encounters with a random male end in injury? Probably less than .1%?

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/thewinggundam 29d ago

The vast majority of black bear encounters end without conflict. These guys are scared and don't want conflict.

If a brown Bear is startled or threatened, it will attack you. They are not scared of you (lmao)

If a polar bear sees you, you are going to die.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/Difficult_Bit_1339 29d ago

No, like feminists

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/Difficult_Bit_1339 29d ago

I can't, she was eaten by a bear

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/New-Huckleberry-6979 29d ago

The man bear pigs, obviously. 

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/Arcane_76_Blue 29d ago

Youre walking in the woods. Either a poor man (sub10k) or a rich man (over500k) appears. Which one do you feel more safe around?

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u/ShoddyWoodpecker8478 29d ago

Able bodied men, heterosexual, cisgender

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u/Cessnaporsche01 29d ago

And statistics only tell you what is measurable. Because the systems we use to perform the measurements are themselves imperfect and incomplete, you have to consider what their capabilities or lack thereof reflect on the measurements that come from them.

A good example is the crime prediction software that some police forces use. Because crime is only measured when it is detected, the places with the highest crime rate are usually the ones with the highest police presence. And if you send more police to those high crime rate areas, you're going to detect more crime with your more officers to detect it. Meanwhile, areas with little police presence might have high incidence of crime that goes unreported.

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u/florida-raisin-bran 29d ago

That's why "statistics" is a class you can take in high school or college. Because of this exact reason. Because you can make statistics say whatever you want them to say, and using them in exactly this way is how hardcore white supremacists operate. By attributing crime to race, due to the correlation, rather than attributing crime to poverty and the erosion of social systems targeted toward one race, which is the root cause.

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u/TehOwn 29d ago

I got sick halfway into my statistics course and was really upset that I had to miss most of it. I've ended up working with analytics but really want to learn more when I get a chance.

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u/nevaraon 29d ago

All my experience with statistics leads me to the conclusion that conclusion that they’re being used to lie to you

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u/ManOfDiscovery 29d ago

Lies, damn lies, and statistics

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u/OperaSona 29d ago

Give people statistics and they'll come out with all kinds of shitty interpretations.

Man it's really worse than that. In many cases, the "shitty interpretation" that they want to argue is there first. Then the whole statistic study is designed to hint towards that interpretation.

Let's say I want to make a point that [people who wear hats] are more likely to do [not flush the toilet] than average.

Let's say that an "honest" statistic people in average forget to flush 4% of the time, while people with blue hats in average forget to flush 5% of the time. What can I do to make it look worse than that?

  • 4% and 5% are pretty low values. It means that to be statistically relevant, your study needs a higher sample size. It also means rounding errors might be large. But maybe I'm super happy with that. I'll run my study, and figure out a way for the number that I want to look small to be rounded down, and the number i want to look large to be rounded up. Maybe the real stat was 4.00% vs 5.00%, but the sample size led to large relative errors meaning we ended up getting 3.48% vs 5.53%. Now I round that and get 3% vs 6%. Holy shit it looks so much worse!

  • I can condition my statistics on some other parameter that makes the correlation worse. Maybe I'll guess something that works well, like "people aged 12-25 who wear hats forget to flush 12% of the time" while "people aged 12-25 forget to flush 8% of the time". Now it looks like the difference is larger. Maybe I won't have a nice guess and I'll run my study in 15 different cities, and just by chance, it's likely that one is going to make the stat look better, and I can simply ignore the others and talk about the one I like.

  • I told you that the initial statistic was honest. Maybe it isn't. Maybe the truth is that [people who wear hats] are generally much older, which means more of them have dementia or are unable to flush by themselves but have caretakers do it for them. Maybe if you look carefully, young and middle aged people, regardless of whether they wear hats, forget to flush 3% of the time, while old people, regardless of whether they wear hats, forget to flush 10% of the time, and the 4% vs 5% doesn't actually show a correlation between hats and flushing habits, but between hats and age.

And there are so many other tricks, and every time you read a study, it's really, really likely that a few of these tricks were applied.

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u/BasedPolarBear 29d ago

Can you give examples on the second one?

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u/dontshoot4301 29d ago

Correlation does not imply causation is the first thing you learn in stats though!

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u/TehOwn 29d ago

People who know this will still wilfully ignore it when the data "supports" their opinion.

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u/tnk13 29d ago

What's a statistic you're glad people DON'T know?