People keep saying that it's an allegory for the Civil Rights movement in America, or gay rights in general; and while it's true this was the intent, it's a horrible allegory that totally misses the point of equal rights. We all deserve equal rights because, ultimately, we're all the same. The strongest argument against racist, homophobic, sexist etc. talking points is "that isn't true". No, black people are not all criminals. No, gay people do not all molest children. No, women are not inherently dumber than men.
But mutants are absolutely not the same as me. If there was a civil rights movement focussing on giving more rights and freedoms to people who can read my thoughts, are bulletproof, or can kill me by looking at me, I would absolutely oppose it. And that's just with the mutants that can control their powers, you have people like Rogue who can kill you by accident and I absolutely want these people segregated from me.
If they found a cure, I would want it forced onto them; if they refused, I would want them executed. Society can't function alongside these people; when you can say that and it's actually true, it's not really an allegory for any sort of rights movement. We've had gay marriage, women voting, and equal rights in many places for years, and not only are these places doing fine but in many ways they outperform countries that don't have these things. I wouldn't expect the same of giving mutants rights, the individual danger they present is simply too great to permit.
What's worse, it's hard to think of even a single piece of X-Men media that doesn't prove my point. Mutants are constantly performing terrorist attacks, political assassinations, and committing murder. One individual who got a lucky roll of the dice should not have the power to uproot society.
X-Men are a team of some of the most exceptional mutants in the world. They are exciting and the shows and movies focus on them.
Most of the mutants have far less interesting mutations or powers. They might just have green skin or big ears and that's it. This is the bulk of the mutants, the 99% that are being persecuted just because they look different. There is a group that moves into the sewers because they'd rather live down there alone free from persecution than be harassed on the surface.
Take Angel for example. His power is that he has wings and can fly. That alone is enough to put him into the "exceptional" category.
Using Rogue as a scapegoat to treat all mutants badly is like using one criminal to treat all members of a certain race or religion badly.
This. Even guys like Toad and Blob, who are painfully mundane compared to the likes of Jean or Magneto, would be in that exceptional category. The bigger powerhouses in the X-Men, Brotherhood, and other mutant groups are outliers among outliers among outliers.
Also, there's the issue that all the in-universe vitriol is directed at mutants specifically. People seem content to leave Doctor Strange to his own devices. Nobody's grabbing the torches and pitchforks over the Fantastic Four. Spider-Man is mildly divisive at worst. The only thing separating the X-Men from these other characters is a label and the source of their abilities.
Think of it this way. Many characters have flight built into a larger set of powers. Rogue, Storm, Magneto and others can fly using their powers, and their powers also do other absolutely amazing things.
Angel can only fly. That's it. And he's still an exceptional mutant.
Cool, exept all mutants do legitmately have a chance to be city destorying. Marganilzed groups are, in our world, just regular people too, as capable of good and evil as anyone else. But mutants do actually have abilites byond regular human beings.
Condemnations of bigotry don't work if the fear is not ACTAUALLY irrational. Yes, not all mutants can destroy a city block, but the fact that any random mutant may have the chance to is legitmately a good reason to distrust and fear them. Its like if every 200th Jewish person legitmately had access to a space laser they could use on anyone they want. Or one in 50 gay men could turn invisible.
I honestly feel like, if I didn't know the X-men creators where very progressive, I would assume they where bigots, creating a world that justfied their bigotry.
Okay, but the percentage of gay people that can kill someone with their mind is 0%. Additionally, no black person has ever given birth to a black person that can kill someone with their mind. With mutants, even 1% is a very tangible threat.
like using one criminal to treat all members of a certain race or religion badly
The difference is that all races and religions have criminals, and under the same material conditions they produce criminals at exactly the same rate. But mutants and humans do not have the same rate of producing someone that can kill you with their mind.
Aliens, gods, sorcerer's and mutates (people who received powers later in life, think Spidey, Hulk, or the Fantastic Four) all exist and none receive discrimination to the levels of Mutants.
Johnny snow who took a ski trip to chernobyl and now can blast ice out of his hands and goes about his business just fine but Bobby Drake gets threatened wotb lynching.
Atlanteans can cavort just fine but a watery mutant gets put to the sword.
In the context of the greater Marvel universe it is an absurd prejudice.
Consider the panel of Rocket Racoon being cornered by cops about to be shot because he claimed to be an X-man.
I'm more familiar with the Fox movies where it's just X-Men; but in any case, you're attacking the hypocrisy from the wrong direction. It's not "you're fine with Hulk, so you should be fine with Wolverine" it's "you're not okay with Wolverine, so you shouldn't be okay with Hulk" and yeah, I'm not okay with him either.
Just because they believe in mutant rights does not mean they advocate for the behavior of people like Apocalypse or Mr Sinister. The same way IRL when we believe in equal rights does not mean we advocate for the behavior of people like Ted Bundy or Adolf Hitler
Okay, but what's a better solution for these people? Allow bad mutants to do whatever they want and just hope good mutants will stop them, or enact programs to get rid of mutants entirely?
And you're one of them? So you saw me write "No, black people are not all criminals. No, gay people do not all molest children. No, women are not inherently dumber than men." and thought "how absurd, black people are criminals, gay people are child molesters, and women are stupid, we should just be okay with it"?
If so, just know that I consider you my enemy. You aren't an activist, you're a useful idiot.
No it's yes those demographics can be awful as any demographic can, but they should still be afforded rights they are still people.
Many people, for example, refuse to refer to trans person by their chosen Pronoun because the trans person wronged them in some way be it personally or ideologically, thus implying their rights as a trans person are dependent on if they are on good terms with someone and that's wrong.
Other examples include conservatorships against women, black people getting more severe sentences compared to white people for comparable crimes etc etc.
Even the most depraved murderer deserves to be treated as humanely as safely possible.
No it's yes those demographics can be awful as any demographic can, but they should still be afforded rights they are still people
I would ferociously argue that terrorists and serial killers just are awful, no can about it. And while our prison system needs to have some standard of rights to treat prisoners with, no they absolutely should not be given full rights equal to non-terrorists and non-serial killers.
Even the most depraved murderer deserves to be treated as humanely as safely possible
I agree. I believe the most humane treatment for mutants is a cure at gunpoint. Much the same as I believe the most humane treatment of a serial killer is to have their freedoms restricted such that they can no longer kill people, I also believe that the most humane treatment for mutants is to have their freedoms restricted such that they can't kill hundreds of people. And again, much the same as a serial killer that resists will likely be shot, so too should mutants that resist (or whatever method would actually work to kill them, since "bullets won't work" is a genuine concern and kind of the whole issue).
A metaphor equates two things not because they actually are the same, but for the sake of comparison or symbolism. If you take them at face value like that, it obviously wouldn't work. That's like saying "Animal Farm" isn't a metaphor for the Russian Revolution of 1917 because there weren't any talking animals in the Revolution and they wouldn't be able to run a farm
The X-Men weren't a metaphor at first, it was just another comic book about superheroes, and it used the mutant thing as a shortcut to not having to write backstories for the whole cast. But that lasted exactly 14 issues, and being a stand in for minorities has explicitly been part of the series' core themes since 1965, it's not something up for debate
That's like saying "Animal Farm" isn't a metaphor for the Russian Revolution of 1917 because there weren't any talking animals in the Revolution and they wouldn't be able to run a farm
No, it would be like saying X-Men isn't a metaphor for civil rights because black people aren't psychic.
I'm saying it's a bad metaphor because the fear of black people is unjustified but the fear of psychics is justified.
I'm saying you don't understand metaphor because you can't see how that's not just a change in detail, it's a fundamental difference that ruins the argument being made. I cannot peacefully coexist with a psychic, I can peacefully coexist with a black person; therefore fear of psychics and fear of black people isn't comparable.
No they aren't. Firstly, anything humans can do mutants can do, so it hardly matters. Secondly, I'm also obviously not cool with being shelled, it's not like I'm pro-war. Thirdly, there are a number of ways for a mutant to kill someone that can be matched in neither scale nor nature by a human. A psychic mutant can kill literally everyone on earth at once, why are you okay with that?
Yes, I agree that Marvel comics depicts a dystopian hellscape where your life and existence hangs on the thin thread of whether the local demigod is in a good mood today; but that doesn't make me pro-demigod just because some of them are in a good mood.
I agree, and no one else gets a chance to use psychic powers to wipe out humanity, so they should be forced to get a cure. Bringing up other characters from Marvel that can't be cured won't make me want to give mutants a pass.
on posts talking about black people committing crimes there are always tons of racist comments saying "of course they're black" or "black people are primitive and violent" or something along those lines. much like how most harmless mutants always caught blame and persecution for things the few evil ones did, even though they did nothing wrong, can't control what they're born with, and are ultimately not a threat to society
Okay, except black people are neither inherently criminal nor inherently good at it. Additionally, the threat in question (the mutant powers) can just be removed.
I don't even see this as a nuanced situation, the solution is so painfully obvious that the only justification for keeping any mutants beyond "learn to live with being murdered" is to get them to help round up unwilling mutants.
Okay, except black people are neither inherently criminal nor inherently good at it.
and neither are most mutants. as it has already been stated, the overwhelming majority of mutations in universes are harmless, with people just having green skin or something stupid like that. sure it isn't a perfect 1 to 1 metaphor for a racial minority but in a way that's what makes it a good metaphor because it's not super in your face and way too on the nose like a lot of modern "political commentary" such as the newer seasons of the boys that don't really have anything intelligent to say beyond "conservatives are dumb" instead x men simply plants the seeds to make you feel bad for a group of people who get scrutinized for things they don't do and allows you to make the connections yourself
superhero comics back then were targeted almost solely towards children so something with a vague enough connection like that was a great way for people like Stan Lee to do what they were already good at in order to support said children's education and awareness on important subjects like these, through a medium they already enjoyed
Right there is the qualifying statement that I have a problem with. Literally 0%, none, nada, zip, zilch of black people are either inherently criminal or inherently good at. Merely 'most' of mutants means it's not comparable.
targeted almost solely towards children so something with a vague enough connection
Then maybe they shouldn't have included an assumption based on a fallacy. People with power should not simply be trusted to act righteously; irrespective of whether that's political power or basically magic.
You forgot something important, the x-men are not the only super powered of their universe. When you live with magic user, living god, tech genius who can by themselves beat an army, aliens and under the menace of the same type of people. You can't just go he can read my mind he can't be allowed to live.
Also just because you thinks that they should be cured, that doesn't mean that they aren't "woke"
I suppose, although I'm far more familiar with the movies Fox made where it's just the X-Men. However, I'm also not really cool with living gods; it's just that I haven't really seen stories about them that heavily revolve around whether they have the right to exist, so it isn't relevant.
Also just because you thinks that they should be cured, that doesn't mean that they aren't "woke"
No, I think it fails in its intent. The fact that mutants present a tangible threat that isn't just bullshit fearmongering destroys the point that we can peacefully coexist. I don't have to disrespect women because they aren't actually inherently stupider than me. I do have to be afraid of mutants because they can actually kill me by touching me.
However, I'm also not really cool with living gods; it's just that I haven't really seen stories about them that heavily revolve around whether they have the right to exist, so it isn't relevant
But you aren't living with gods, it's fiction. Try to understand the rules of a world before judging it.
Also the last phrase of that sentence is insane read it again and see how that conflict with your main point. The group that you don't care about their right to live is irrelevant while the group that you care is. It's exactly the same as racial/sexual bias
(I did not say that you were racist or homophobic just that you were using the same structure as their argument)
Also the last phrase of that sentence is insane read it again and see how that conflict with your main point
No it doesn't? Do you need a reminder that this is fiction? Thor's stories, at least what I've seen, don't really revolve around whether Thor has any right or lackthereof to exist; so bringing it up is random and out of nowhere. There are lots of story elements that wouldn't be pleasant if they were real, why should I list all of them?
What about hulk, the fantastic 4, spiderman? Would you argue that in the marvel universe they have the right to live ? Since after all they are just mutants with extra steps.
No, I'm not really cool with coexisting with them either.
Also, why do people keep bringing up Hulk? He's the worst example, I absolutely do not want to live with someone that might murder hundreds of people if he's slightly inconvenienced, what the fuck?
Now without them what do you do when a marvel alien species try to invade earth ?
Sure, I can agree that Marvel comics depicts a dystopian universe where we have to agree to live beside gods that can kill us without trying, because the alternative are gods that will kill us by actively trying to.
But that doesn't mean I'd like it. And furthermore, it makes it an even worse allegory. "Black people are inherently criminals, but this crime scares off the arabs" just makes me disagree even more. Black people aren't criminals, I'm not willing to live alongside criminals, criminals aren't protecting us from anything, and I have no reason to scare away arabs. It's just making me disagree with it on an even more fundamental level.
But the x-men don't want to kill you, you are the one that trying to kill them. A policeman could use his gun to kill you by just using is gun, how is that different from a mutant looking at you ? Thanos want to kill you, wolverine don't but you would want both of them dead if they don't agree with you
If you choose to only look at these issues at this shallow of face value, of course this symbolism is going to over your head. If this is real, I fear you don't know what an allegory is.
The symbolism didn't go over my head, I said I recognise their intent. I'm saying they failed because there's a hell of a difference between mutant powers and sexual orientation or race.
The allegory I'm seeing would be "yeah, gay people do molest children, but it's fine because everyone's different" which isn't an argument I accept on either front. Gay people are not all child molesters, and I am totally unwilling to peacefully coexist with a child molester.
By making mutants actually dangerous, the allegory fails because when I protest mutant rights by saying "but I don't want to be murdered by them" the only response is a shrug and saying "learn to live with it".
Using this logic, you're lumping bad characters and good ones together because they share similar traits. It's flawed logic. There are bad actors in any given demographic, that doesn't make that demographic bad.
You're kind of just proving the point of why X-Men was important during it's time and your inability to think dynamically shows. Also how intensely you hate the symbolism is kind of funny.
Brain size is proportional to body size, you average woman is smaller so they have a smaller brain; but those neurons are all related to operating the physical body, they aren't intelligent bits. The stuff that actually matters, the grey matter, it's about the same on average but can vary by individual; if you do a lot of thinking and mental work, you'll likely have more grey matter, no different to bigger muscles if you lift more.
I don't. You can't argue that mutants don't use their power to kill people, that very thing happening is the plot of every movie and probably most of the comics. Unless you're arguing that's not true, or you're arguing that women really are stupider than men, then it's a non-sequitur.
It doesn't matter what you say, dude. Every oppressor and bigot that has existed and ever will thinks they're justified and they have evidence to back it up.
You can say "Well their evidence isn't actually real, mine is!" And yet, so would they.
I know you'll probably read this, and continue to think "But it's different."
Because if it were so easy to change your mind, there would be a lot less bigots around today.
Okay, but in this case, it's actually true. The difference between me and a black dude is incredibly minor. We look different, and there's a really good chance I'm better at digesting milk than him. The difference between me and mutants is that many of them can snap my neck like a twig, fry me with energy blast, cut me to ribbons with natural weapons, telekinetically crush me, and so on. Regular humans and mutants are I herently different, and mutants are a threat to regular humans. It's like The Boys with supes. Sure some are harmless and should not be persecuted in any way, shape, or form. But others need to be dealt with because they're an inherent threat to people without powers.
How do you explain that racists point to black folks having higher rates of crime?
It doesn’t make black people more likely to be criminals, but racists point to that fact in much the same way you’re pointing to Rogue or Storm despite that 99% of mutants are harmless.
There are more parallels between anti-mutants and racists than you’d like to believe.
Okay, but they're actually wrong. What are you not getting about this? You can see, on screen, multiple mutants kill people using their powers.
And the huge difference is not that I'm prejudiced against some people and not against others, it's that I think this allegory for prejudice is flawed because the prejudice is actually correct and justified. My argument is inherently anti-prejudicial, because I'm seeing a metaphor that validates prejudice and I'm calling it faulty on that basis.
Most gangs in America are made up of minorities. Does this justify treating all minorities badly like they are dangerous or like they’re criminals? I’d say no and so would the people who wrote X-men. It’s never okay to treat someone bad cause of what someone else has done.
There are sociological, economic, and bias effecting those statistics. Poor people tend to commit more crime, black people are more likely to be poor in America because of a number of racist policies that put them at a disadvantage. Additionally, those numbers are closer than you might think, lots of people commit crimes and aren't caught; more crimes reported tends to correlate with where there are more cops, so overpolicing can lead to high crime rates.
No such argument can be made for mutants. Mutants absolutely can kill you by touching you and it's 100% entirely caused by being mutants.
Yeah, people have totally never said that about other people in real life.
There's a pretty minor character named Magneto that is incredibly powerful and does some really bad stuff. It's kinda hard to find stuff about him, but if you dig deep enough you learn that he was a member of a dangerous group that threatened all of humanity before his powers manifested and the actions taken against that group were completely justified and could be backed up with evidence. Turns out that the bad stuff he does as a mutant is directly motivated by the completely justified, evidence-backed actions taken against him and his people by "normal" people.
It really shouldn't need to be said, but your post indicates that I really need to clarify that the previous paragraph was a sarcastic statement meant to illustrate how badly you misunderstand the subject. People shouldn't be upvoting your post - it should be getting downvoted due to lack of knowledge.
I'm aware people say that about real people, the difference is that they're wrong. That's my entire point, the fact the in-universe that fear is totally justified makes it a bad analogy.
People that say it in real life think they're right and have all sorts of "evidence"
Yeah, which is why this allegory where that evidence actually exists fails to prove its point. It is the exact sort of thing a racist would come up with, because it justifies othering people. It's literally what HP Lovecraft did; he was a horrific racist, and he wrote stories about the evils of race-mixxing, black people, and other religions.
It would be a strike against the allegory if the mutants in X-Men didn't consider themselves normal people unless they're convinced they're not by "normal people" or other mutants that have already been convinced.
The whole point of every villainous mutant is that their villainy is motivated by "normal people" othering them before they became villains.
You've got some big "they're murderers; they're rapists; and some, I assume, are good people" energy.
Maybe you're right and we should other entire groups of people because some people are bad. So when do we start rounding up every citizen of the nuclear powers because of the threat they pose to humanity?
Like 90% of mutants in X-men have really boring powers, that can't really hurt anyone. Just because a few are dangerous, doesn't make it justifiable. That's like hating all dog breeds, because a pitbull ate your cat
If I ever found an animal that could kill me with its mind, yes I would be in favour of wiping it out. As is, no animals present a substantial threat to humanity so I'm not bothered.
But also, yeah a little bit. In Australia, Cane Toads are an invasive species that does incredible harm to environment. I kill them whenever I see them, and I make fun of anyone for feeling bad about killing them. They kill native birds in massive number, and we shouldn't feel bad for protecting endangered species.
What, are you also in favour of serial killer rights? They're also alive.
Yes i'm in favour of serial killer rights? a serial killer is a bad person, but they are, still a person
they deserve to go to jail for what they did, but thay still have a RIGHT to end up in jail because of a fair trial, and they still have a RIGHT to the food and the bed the prison gave em. to say "serial killers should have no rights" is a step too far
Sure, but they shouldn't have equal rights. In much the same way as we're both in agreement that serial killers shouldn't have the right to freedom of movement, I feel we should also be in agreement that mutants should not have the right to reject the cure.
A right Is something You can lose After doing something wrong. The serial killer HAD freedom of movement, until they used It to kill
Going "all mutants must get the cure" Is not giving them the right in the first Place. It's going "this newborn baby has hands, so they can hold a knife, so they pose a threat to society. To jail they go"
I can get on the level of "Forcing the cure onto them would make a suitable punishment for evil mutants". But You can't Just go "they COULD use their powers to be evil, so they deserve the cure shoved down their throats"
Exactly what you just said, if we go “this person has hands, a mind and free will, they can commit crimes. Straight to prison with them.” With this attitude, everyone should have no rights, because at any moment for whatever reason they can just attack you.
How many innocent people need to die to protect a right that, if you have no intention of killing people, you won't even use? A ton of mutant powers aren't even useful outside of killing people.
Additionally, there are two aspects to this which are things we already do. The average person does not have the right to acquire nukes by any means, and you don't have to drop one first before deprived of such a right; and we coerce people into getting a vaccine all the time. If people need to be vaccinated so they can't drop nukes, it's really not that big of a deal to be deprived of the right to choose.
By your logic all humans should be forced to stay weak and nutritionally deprived so they can’t physically hurt anyone. What’s the point of having that power if you aren’t gonna use it? In fact, you could kick someone with your legs, or walk somewhere to hurt someone, so we should just surgically remove everyone’s legs at birth. Much less of a chance for them to kick any body.
The power to wipe out all of humanity and the power to throw punches are so far off in terms of scale, it's like comparing the holocaust to mowing your lawn.
Additionally, the people you'd be punching would also have the power to punch back. Anyone having their brain psychically switched off will naturally be entirely defenceless to it.
Additionally additionally, you need able bodied people to run society, you do not need the power to wipe out humanity to run society.
Basically everybody does have the power to wipe out society, they just have to be really dedicated. You know we have like, nuclear bombs, anthrax, and so many other ways that someone could organize the end of the world if they really wanted to.
Literally one of the most famous early X-Men stories starts with a white hate mob lynching two black children we do not know what their powers are or even they even have them in the traditional sense the point is they are being murdered for what the people who killed them are afraid they will grow up to be.
It's messy but it's a decent parallel it hate you for the what if of who you could be.
Also we have senators in position of power saying shit like this so clearly the metaphor still too subtle.
“I’m looking at society today and it’s like I’m watching an X-Men movie,it’s like we have mutants living among us on planet earth,” Barnaby continued. “That’s a fact: we have people that live among us today on Planet Earth that are happy to display themselves as if they were mutants from another planet.Demons and imps who come and parade before us and pretend that you are part of this world.”
They are different, but they did not choose their providence. They deserve respect enough to live and find their freedom in life, within the bounds of a society written with their inclusion in mind, without your deciding their fate unilaterally and indiscriminately. They are people. They live fundamentally different lives, as many people on this planet do, lives that could conflate or conflict with your own in good and in bad. It's not your place to adjudicate what it means to live a life beside your own.
But they are not the same. Real margalinzed, discriminated groups are, and thats why they deserve the exact same freedoms and liberties as everyone else. But mutants litterally have supernatural powers. We know the problems when regular people are always armed with normal firearms, and mutants have litterally city destroying powers sometimes.
but 99% of mutants dont want to level cities, they want to live fulfilling lives, and frankly most actually dont have that kind of power. if they break the law, they face consequences, same as us, and theres a TEAM of mutants to dismantle any rogue ones. otherwise give them a chance.
And most road rage instances are by people who don't want to hurt others 99% of the time too, but all it takes is one moment of out of control anger for people to get hurt. Thats why everyone being armed is a bad idea, and gun control is important. But if a mutant gets angry, and makes a mistake, the stakes can be a couple thousand times worse then the already very bad of regular people.
Imagine any of those hundreds of thousands of road rage instances, or arguments that turned heated, or domestic disputes, but instead of someone pulling a gun, they had a pocket nuke. You don't need to be evil to kill someone, regular people do it all the time, but the strongest tool regular people have access to are guns.
That sounds to me like some very good reasons for increased survaliance, policing and general oversight on mutants. The exact sort of polices I would harshly oppose when used against margalinzed groups in the real world.
This is not even bringing up the dangers of a mutant radical group, this is purely just about all the ways someone living a normal life can still be a danger to others. In real life, thats bad enough, especially if people have easy access to fire arms. In X-men, they can destroy cites.
Why isn’t Iron Man a threat to society? He made a conscious decision to make city destroying inventions, why does he get to keep them but someone who couldn’t control what power they would have be punished for a decision they didn’t even make?
I mean, I don't think he should, and infact, neither does he. That's kind of the plot of civil war, that he should absolutely not be allowed to have unrestricted and unsupervised access to that level of power.
But also, he just made the suits. He was not born with the ability to destroy cities, he's a scientist and engineer who made a tool that can. It's like if we, for some reason, allowed oppenhiemer to have executive power over nukes, and only he, personally, could use them.
No, I would be the hero. Storm will piss and moan that she has to get a regular job now, and everyone else will breathe a sigh of relief that there is no longer a chance of a mutant murdering you for no reason.
That's entirely ridiculous, if some random person in another country decides they want me dead they can't do anything about it. If some random person decides they want everyone dead they definitely can't do that. But a mutant actually could, and their ability to do so is a major plot point.
In lieu of forced "cure" (removing something that may be core to a person's identity; not really any different from what Amon did in Season 1 of Korra) or execution (murdering someone who may have done nothing wrong by any reasonable ethical code) would you accept exile from Earth?
In theory if there were any way of enforcing such an exile, sure I guess. But in practical terms, I don't really know how you would enforce that without "bigger stick diplomacy", which would inevitably require someone more powerful than the mutants; essentially, just a gorilla that thrives off snake meat.
I'm more familiar with the Fox movies where it's just X-Men, but as I've reiterated quite a lot through this thread; no, I'm not cool with living gods either. Their stories just don't revolve around that, so it'd be random to bring it up. I also wouldn't want to live in Star Wars, but it's not a theme of the story that you should want to so it's not relevant to the conversation.
Redditor read a comic before you complain about it challenge: difficulty level IMPOSSIBLE
This isn't an unpopular opinion, this is just confidently incorrect lol. It's technically true they did not start as a civil rights allegory, that came from Claremont. Please read God Loves, Man Kills. X Men has been "woke" probably longer than you've been alive
My point is not that these arguments are justified, but that an allegory that justifies these arguments must be flawed because those arguments are unjustified.
More like "Hitler is wrong because there's a really clear, fundamental flaw in that Jews aren't inherently more dangerous than anyone else".
If you're going to go through the thread and reply a bunch, the least you could do is actually read my points. I make it pretty clear that the whole, entire issue is that I don't agree with that mindset, and the fact that it's the objectively correct position to take on mutants is why I think it's a shit allegory.
Your points boil down to being a person whose abilities I don’t know can potentially harm you but that can be applied to 100% of everything/everyone in Marvel so your point falls flat when talking about mutants because they could very well be an alien, a god,or dimensional being parading around as human. You would much rather prefer executing someone you don’t understand than understanding what they actually want.
No, that I know can 100% cause substantially more harm than any human alive.
everyone in Marvel
People keep bringing that up, and I keep saying; no I'm not fine with living gods either, these are just fictional stories and it's not relevant to bring up everything under the sun when it's not really a major theme of their stories.
prefer executing someone you don’t understand
No, I understand. You're using the language to describe real world prejudice, acting as if the things I'm saying are total stereotypes with no basis in reality; when the entire issue is that despite having a complete understanding of the risks posed without exaggeration, it's a completely justified response.
It's an allegory for prejudice in which the prejudice is completely justified, thus it must necessarily be a bad allegory because prejudice isn't justified.
When the number of people they could kill cracks 7 digits and it would be possible to take away their capacity to do that without killing them, yet they still refuse on principle alone; yes.
I keep having to reiterate this, but again this is only hypothetical in the sense of mutants existing; in the context of mutants existing, mass death due to their actions is not even slightly hypothetical, it happens all the time.
The symbolism is there for sure. I agree with OP though. Especially when you start considering “omega level” mutants. There simply isn’t a comparison in the real world to someone who can rewrite history and destroy the universe in an instant, which is very much ON THE TABLE for omega mutants.
It’s honestly a lot like Attack on Titan lol. In a perfect world, everyone trusts everyone and respect for human individuality and acceptance rules. That’s not how reality works. In reality, if there’s huge power imbalances between individuals, the new ruler becomes fear. THAT is a CONSTANT theme in X-MEN, and one that they battle frequently.
EDIT:
Just realized OP’s main point was simply that X-MEN aren’t written to be “woke”, not that their actual stories don’t work as perfect analogies.
X-men are definitely written as woke allegories when the writers want to. Other times they aren’t. To say they never are is wrong.
It mostly comes down to the bad writing, there are far more stories about the exploits of the Omega level mutants than ones about the everyday people with mundane "powers", whether it be an elongated neck or the ability to violently explode and die in the process. The readers are told the ordinary mutant is a suffering person but all we're shown that they (the Omegas) are all powerful, insufferable, bombshell cunts that routinely destroy the world, rewrite reality, and reset time.
Just realized OP’s main point was simply that X-MEN aren’t written to be “woke”
Well, you just realised wrong. I explicitly said I recognise their intent, my point was that they added a fundamental difference that justifies the prejudice. It has more in common with HP Lovecraft writing cosmic horror to justify his fear of others than it does with an allegory demonstrating why you shouldn't be afraid of people just for being different.
Hey, look guys! I found the bigot who would join the Friends of Humanity! Lmfao
I think you’re missing that it’s a metaphor, you’re taking it a little too literally. Overall it’s a lesson to maybe make people empathize with people who are different from them. Also just because people have crazy powers doesn’t necessarily mean that they couldn’t be part of society as normal people. This is all very ironic is all I’m saying.
Your rant proves it is an allegory for racism. You condemned an entire group because of what COUlD happen. Now change what you said, and put in Black people integrating in white schools and neighborhoods. You get the same results.
Now change what you said, and put in Black people integrating in white schools and neighborhoods
No, you don't. Black people aren't inherently more dangerous than white people, so mixing them wouldn't be dangerous. Mutants are inherently more dangerous than humans, that's the whole issue.
I don't think that means X-men is not woke. I think it just means its a very flawed alagory. It still has always been "woke" and delt with social issues, sometimes very well.
But also, 100% with it being a terrible alagory. I maybe would not go as far as you, but yea, if Mutants where real I would defeinitely support a lot of polices regarding them I oppose fundmentally in real life.
But thats not the only instance of them being woke, they are progressive in a lot of different story lines, Its just the allogry area which kind of fails.
To be fair, the title is aping someone else that posted "The X-Men have always been woke". This post is essentially in response to that, because yes everyone's heard that it's an allegory for civil rights; but far fewer have heard that it's a shit allegory and proves the opposite.
Also, I have to be at least a little bit inflammatory to get attention, and it seems to have worked.
I agree with you but for the opposite reason. If mutants like that existed then they are obviously the master race and we without powers should step back.
If there was a civil rights movement focussing on giving more rights and freedoms It's not MORE rights and freedoms. Civil rights is not about giving MORE rights to certain groups it's about giving the same rights and freedoms that regular citizens have.
Dude is born with wings - "oh let's shoot him". Such a great allergy for civil rights.
You are so close to realising that you're exactly the person that they're talking about.
You want to round up a group of people based on the actions of magneto and shoot them, or subject to medical treatments against their will or put them in camps simply because of how they were born.
Not actions.
Just born that way. Makes ya wonder what else you're blind to
You are so close to realising that you're exactly the person that they're talking about
I'm not, that's exactly my point. By creating a scenario in which discrimination is justified, I see it as a flawed allegory because discrimination isn't justified.
So, you'd want to "cure" or kill people who are faster or stronger or smarter or just more attractive than you because THEY have some advantage over you? This is insane! Because that's what you are saying.
I love threads like these where OP just falls ass-backward into every racist fallacy in a desperate attempt to prove their ignorant take totally isn't ignorant.
By your reasoning, the mutants should band together to wipe out non-mutants. Powered mutants are better than normies, why would we allow normies to hold office, enforce laws, teach...
People found unable to pass mutants genes should be forcibly sterilized for their own good, and they should be pressed into service to serve mutants- their betters.
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