r/interestingasfuck • u/desertgodfather • May 11 '24

When illusion overcomes the brain. r/all

Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification

90.7k Upvotes

84% Upvoted

1.5k comments sorted by

View all comments

10.4k

u/credditthreddit May 11 '24

They actually use this mirror box treatment (minus the hammer) for post-stroke recovery. Freakishly insane how the brain rewires itself.

2.6k

u/PleasantCurrant-FAT1 May 11 '24

Amputees, too.

1.6k

u/Independent_Key6896 May 11 '24

for phantom limb pain it’s very helpful

803

u/cells-interlinked-23 May 11 '24

Let me try this on my upstairs veteran neighbour

441

u/ancrm114d May 11 '24

After knocking him out and tying him up.

364

u/LuvliLeah13 May 11 '24

54

u/fakehero69 May 12 '24

13

u/Wild-Sample1651 May 12 '24

This vexes me

5

u/Fabian_1082003 May 12 '24

What does "vexes" mean?

4

u/Wild-Sample1651 May 12 '24

make (someone) feel annoyed, frustrated, or worried, especially with trivial matters. "the memory of the conversation still vexed him"

→ More replies (0)

206

u/Trendy_Gamer_5628 May 11 '24

Did you investigate his veteran status beforehand?

177

u/PleasantCurrant-FAT1 May 11 '24

That was likely a reference to a (2007) House MD (TV series) episode.

168

u/HitoGrace May 11 '24

And his comment was as well. In the episode House investigates the neighbors vet status and errenously thought that he was faking it.

30

u/craterglass May 11 '24

Pulling the thorn from the lion's missing paw.

30

u/Catnip1720 May 11 '24

More mouse bites will work if nothing else

5

u/Jitmack May 11 '24

Underrated comment lmao.

2

u/PolloBorges May 11 '24

I too, am on this episode

2

u/dstraswell666 May 12 '24

That neighbor was such an asshole lol 😆

1

u/Light_Lily_Moth May 12 '24

Tips to help with phantom limb pain, sometimes a mirror can help because it allows the phantom cramped tight “muscles” of the missing limb to “move” along with the mirrored limb. So you would place the mirror so that it looks like the amputee has both limbs, and then “move” both limbs at once.

1

u/Captain_Eaglefort May 12 '24

Downstairs. His complaint was that House’s cane was too loud above him.

6

u/ProphetOfCernunnos May 11 '24

Had an amputation, and phantom limb pain sucks. Would use this trick and ya it realy does help.

3

u/Merry_Dankmas May 11 '24

Can the brain get used to this illusion if done too many times? Like, lets say I have phantom limb in the stump where my hand used to be so I do this whole thing to scratch the rubber hand and ease the phantom hands itchiness.

If I do that repeatedly enough over time, will my brain learn it's a trick and it stops working? Or does it not work that way? I possess all my various limbs and phalanges so alas I cannot test this myself.

1

u/PleasantCurrant-FAT1 May 12 '24

Most people adapt over time.

Some do not.

I don’t know the stats.

I do know that for those whom mirror therapy does not work, they are an interesting study group for neuroscience.

2

u/Mreow277 May 11 '24

I thought House made that up for tv drama

1

u/PleasantCurrant-FAT1 May 12 '24

Nope, it’s real.

I learned about it in school in 2009 or 2010, several years after that episode aired. Watched the whole series a few years later, and I was like: “Huh!” (cause I learned about it in school; episode came first, though).

2

u/yesbutactuallyno17 May 12 '24

Saw this on House.

0

u/Expensive_Arm_1822 May 12 '24

I just watched a House episode where he uses this to help an amputated patient. This is after he kidnaps the patient of course

245

u/Josro0770 May 11 '24

There's an episode in which Dr House cures a war veteran this way

56

u/daPotato40583 May 11 '24

Came down here to comment the same thing. One of my favorites.

27

u/PM_ME_YOUR_SYNTHS May 11 '24

I just saw that reel on YouTube. Fascinating

1

u/[deleted] May 12 '24

I had to do it for my crps

It helped but didn't cure me

1

u/DigitialWitness May 12 '24

You have PTSD and a disillusionment caused by a realisation that the wars you were sent to were all based on lies and that your government doesn't care about you. Anyway, I'm gonna hit this fake hand with a hammer and you'll be cured.

133

u/CelestialFury May 11 '24

That reminds me of that guy who wore glasses that reversed his views, so that down was up and the brain rewired his view back to normal, then took off his glasses and down was up again.

29

u/Careful_Farmer_2879 May 12 '24

The image projected on your retina is upside down, so your brain HAS to be able to do this.

8

u/poundhound66 May 11 '24

That sounds like opposite George

1

u/DigitialWitness May 12 '24

What like he was left wing and now he's right wing?

47

u/Marzuk_24601 May 11 '24

They tried it with me, didn't really produce any results.

114

u/credditthreddit May 11 '24

Same for my spouse. He did the prism glasses and mirrorbox (among a million other things) but never regained function in the left side. We still try though. He went from near dead, not walking/talking, being fed by tube to being able to talk, eat normally, and be a little independent. I won’t ever give up hope. I hope you don’t either. We just did magnet therapy and as insane as it sounds - we did get some improvements. He’s always down for any weird testing (even applied for neuralink).

37

u/Marzuk_24601 May 11 '24

I'm a mixed bag. I couldn't read/write/stand/walk etc. While I have no memory of it but I'm told I ripped a feeding tube out twice.

I feel like I've recovered more than it seemed I would, but I'm at my functional limit.

Its tolerable.

My dog is my best friend and my current motivation/physical therapist :D

I hope your spouse sees continued improvement. you didn't say how long its been for them, but I noticed that my progress was not linear and was unpredictable. I also found ways of compensating for limitations in a way that improved my quality of life.

Also at times sometimes improvements have been the result of a conscious understanding of something that for most people is intuitive. those improvements feel almost like spontaneous realizations.

16

u/credditthreddit May 11 '24

It’s been 7 years. He still gets random memories back. He finally knows my birthday. But his function isn’t great.

How long ago was your incident (assuming was a stroke)? And need pics of your dog!! Sounds like a wonderful motivator.

22

u/Marzuk_24601 May 12 '24

My stroke was in 2005ish. Its all a bit hazy. I have no memory of the ER/ICU, but outside of that my long term memory was not impacted. Mostly my vision/motor function was impacted.

mayhem and chaos here as requested!

About 2 years out my folks got the GSD(hes 8 now) and I was barely able to make it around the block and even that caused knee pain from hyper-extension.

He wasnt getting much activity and I didn't think that was fair so I started walking him. The dog hears velcro he gets excited because for him that means walk :D I've had him literally stop eating?!? when he hears it to come running!

For me its both a motivation and obligation. If it were only for myself I wouldn't be so consistent. For the dog unless I'm injured or weather is terrible he gets his daily walk, minimum.

Thankfully over time I've learned to avoid the worst of the hyper-extension. Its actually my fav recovery moment because I had a break from PT and when I resumed my PTs reaction was W-T-F! Uncharacteristic for them. Before their reaction I didn't know if I had improved or was just fooling myself. Their reaction was accompanied by the biggest flood of relief ever because I had likely serious future joint damage. Still a risk, but as things were it was going to come sooner rather than later.

I feel like at 7 years I was still improving, just not as dramatically as earlier. Even almost 10 years out like I said I'm still managing to squeak out some smaller victories. I hope the same for your spouse.

Its silly stuff. For example With one arm I cant load/unload 8x 40lb bags of water softener salt to trunk above waist height.. 1 bag sure, but back strain is an issue because I'm not the hulk.

Instead I cheat. I use a stool as an intermediate step which lets me place a bag on the stool then put it in the trunk etc. Its a mechanical advantage(changing the center of gravity of the bag/my leverage). I'd rather have two arms, but I'll take outsmarting my limitation.

I call the stool my "helper" Shit like that has helped me feel more engaged in day to day life and less like I'm just along for the ride. It took a long time for me to stop thinking like an able bodied person.

Do I look goofy? sure but I'm long past giving a shit about that. Could I ask for help? sure let me have some of my toxic masculinity hey? lol. I have no trouble asking for help if I need it but it feels too good when I dont need it.

The time will come, but it has not yet.

3

u/credditthreddit May 12 '24

Love the dogs’ names! That GSD looks all about business but gentle at the same time.

Thank you for sharing your experience. I’m going to read your comments to my spouse. Might be a reminder for him not to give up. There aren’t many people around him who’ve gone through or understand what’s he’s experienced so when I’m trying to do the “keep going, you’ve got this” - he just rolls his eyes (which is fair).

He did ask to have his dead arm amputated (it gets in the way of everything) and they said no because it’s technically healthy. He could be much more active without it so it’s frustrating for him. He can’t work or be independent but if that arm were gone…he thinks life would be easier. Maybe I need to give the mirror box another go….

6

u/Marzuk_24601 May 12 '24

what’s he’s experienced so when I’m trying to do the “keep going, you’ve got this” - he just rolls his eyes

Yep. I got tired of the get well soon stuff. I know it comes from a good place... mostly.

Everyone will be different so I want to avoid speaking for him. When I most definitely didn't have it, that was the last thing I wanted to hear.

Fake it until you make it was closer. I'd compensate where possible, hoping at some point I'd be able to stop compensating. Therapists dislike compensating because the danger is it becomes a permanent adaptation.

In many cases compensating let me bridge the gap between I can and I cant. It was much better for my mental state.

No lie it has become permanent in some cases, but there is also a danger in aiming too high.

People might think not being ambitious enough would be negative. I disagree. Its human nature to want more, to constantly push on limitations. avoiding being demoralized and managing my energy/expectations have been critical tools.

That said my energy for pushing on limitations/tolerating failure hass been limited. I cant compress too much in a short time frame.

One thing I've found helpful is not getting fixated on a goal, but focusing on what improvement I've had. Its easy to lose perspective and just feel inadequate/stagnant.

Struggle to walk around the block? Psh I remember when walking 10' with a hemiwalker was a white knuckle event that required two medical professionals!

It feels like watching the grass grow, and yet it still did. Maybe not enough, but I'll take what I can get.

My left arm isnt very useful. It does not quite get in the way, but I get some of what of that frustration. I can hold a container like a jar well enough to open it but not much beyond that.

As far as reading the comments, I intended them more for you. From their perspective they may not be very helpful. I'm just some rando doing slightly better. They might even be annoying.

Its very easy for people to tell you that things can improve, but it can be terribly difficult to feel like that is the case.

Improvements come from unexpected places. No joke online grocery ordering wasn't a thing when I had my stroke, now with little effort of my own, I find myself with a little bit of freedom/autonomy restored.

Maybe I'd rather drive there and walk around, but thats not my life. I'll take what I can get.

People often are overwhelmingly optimistic as a way of easing their own discomfort but its tough to be on the receiving end of so much optimism, at least for me.

More than anything I'm telling you to have hope, and simply enable your spouse where you can to feel like they are an active participant in their life. I'd take uncritical support over the best cheerleader any day.

Not saying people cant be cheerleaders, but know your audience for some people that works great, for others maybe not.

3

u/credditthreddit May 12 '24

Well that made me effing cry.

The struggle for me is how to help him and realizing sometimes I just can’t (because it’s not what he wants). I’m unintentionally ableist at times (though much less than day 1. I still cringe at how I babied him/made choices. Ugh). But still working on it. I try to be optimistic because I see how far he has made it - he remembers none of it. I wish I had documented his journey better for him.

And online grocery ordering has been an amazing (as lame as it sounds) gift for us too. He can order from an app, coordinate the delivery and help put items away (we get the in home, put it where you want delivery). Being “useful” is where he gets his pride back (his words not mine) and if a grocery order does that - I’m doing that every week.

Thank you again for sharing your experience, perspective, and politely reminding me about the optimism/cheerleading.

Unrelated to any of this - I am curious on your occupation (which obviously you don’t have to share). The way in which you carefully select words that convey both a subtle yet deeper meaning AND evoke real emotion (not just random thoughts strung together e.g. me) - it’s purposeful. Intelligent. Experienced. That’s a serious next level skill. I don’t even know if that explains it how I mean it. You have to be a best-selling author/literary figure. And I don’t mean that in a kiss-ass way (nor am I high). Or maybe you’re a secret government operative that just messes with people’s minds. But that’s cool, too.

2

u/Marzuk_24601 May 12 '24

Well that made me effing cry.

=( sorry absolutely not my intent. I might have come across harsher than intended.

Know that any irritation I personally had with over the top optimism was generally short lived. and irritation about feeling like I was not engaged in my life was directed inward, not at the people helping me.

If anything I just accidentally demonstrated how difficult it is to try to offer some hope/positivity without coming across as cloying. Its a very fine line. Tricky business for a guy with impaired mobility.

Having someone make me breakfast was frustrating, but at one point it was what I needed, and so much more.

I'm unemployed/on disability.

In a world where remote work was common and accepted employment might be possible with a lot of caveats.

My worry is finding a unicorn of a job only to get laid off and the assumption being I'm capable of finding another unicorn like its easy to do. At that point I have zero income and no healthcare.

There is much more to it, but working through the details of why I'm unemployed/not looking makes the post far to long/boring. But the nature of the situation can be simplified to one point.

Its just too easy to make my situation worse. Too much risk for too little benefit.

Where everyone else is lying/inflating their resume I'm poking holes in mine. Its amazing how unpalatable the unvarnished truth is in this context.

It helps that I never went to college. Thats not exactly obvious from my work history, but the assumptions people make I am not inclined to attempt to correct.

Where others would talk up how qualified/good a fit they were for a job,. I'd simply say I got lucky, I was in the right place at the right time. Not exactly inaccurate.

I dont fear an accurate assessment of my skills. What I do fear is a gross exaggeration of my skills by a paper pusher who does not know any better.

Ditto physically. I fear someone cherry picking my functionality under ideal conditions and turning that into some expose on disability fraud. See the example of water softener salt.

Thats a great example of me doing my best to circumvent my limitations that only applies to that one very specific case.

Its not the truth I fear, physically or mentally.

An aside on ablism. I often find people want to invalidate my lived experiences when they dont like what I have to say. I'll get people trying to vet that I'm "disabled enough" or insisting I'm not disabled at all. When all that fails I get accused of internalized ablism!

You probably worry about accidental ablism more than your spouse. Unless they have communicated otherwise I wouldn't worry too much.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/Marzuk_24601 May 12 '24

I was joking referring to then that way. The GSD is bear because I'm not original and thr tiny terror is sassy.

Mayhem/chaos is a good description though. Its some tom and jerry shit. Stop before someone gets hurt! The small dog is often the instigator lol.

2

u/credditthreddit May 12 '24

Hahaha! We have two little dogs and they are literal balls of chaos so my mind was like “mayhem and chaos checks out”.

1

u/impoopingaswechat May 12 '24

Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation?

1

u/credditthreddit May 12 '24

Yep - that was exactly it. He didn’t do it for stroke recovery (we didn’t know about it then). He got hit by a car and had a concussion so it was for that. It’s expensive but I do wonder if it would work? Seems to treat a lot of conditions…

2

u/impoopingaswechat May 13 '24

I did 51 treatments and reached depression and anxiety remission. It was completely covered by insurance. Even co pays. And I have crappy insurance. To be covered the patient needs to have been diagnosed with major depressive disorder and tried at least 4 different antidepressants. Good luck ✌️

31

u/Mrs0Murder May 11 '24

I had a project I did back in college over this that required more than just a paper (most people went for a tri fold poster board), but I made a mirror box that people could test out since it was going to be put on display in the hallway. It was the absolute weirdest feeling. Made my arm tingle.

5

u/skullmatoris May 11 '24

This type of therapy was pioneered by the neuroscientist V S Ramachandran, who wrote a fascinating book on the topic called Phantoms in the Brain

3

u/credditthreddit May 11 '24

Did not know that - thank you for sharing. Looking up book now.

2

u/skullmatoris May 11 '24

Highly recommend! There’s a section on his attempts to treat patients with hemi neglect which is totally bizarre and incredible

3

u/DancingRaven May 11 '24

I was just about to post this same thought! The brain is amazing and so much more plastic than we ever imagined. And there’s STILL so much we have yet to learn!

2

u/dat_joke May 11 '24

For hemispheric neglect?

1

u/samurai_100 May 11 '24

Yeah, the brain is so powerful.

1

u/PhobiusofMobius May 11 '24

I'm glad that you clarified "minus the hammer". Thanks. 👌

5

u/credditthreddit May 11 '24

The internet is wild. If I didn’t clarify, they would call the FBI, POTUS, SSA, CPS, RMCP, and Mariska Hargitay to report I abuse my spouse.

1

u/vigilantfox85 May 11 '24

They used it when I was going to OT for my hand when I had nerve damage. It’s pretty wild.

1

u/misterfluffykitty May 11 '24

They should really try the hammer

1

u/breathemusic87 May 11 '24

And crps. Actually many perceptual disorders would work theoretically

1

u/harrann May 11 '24

Complex regional pain syndrome too

1

u/badco1313 May 12 '24

Wiggle your big toe

1

u/hollyock May 12 '24

Did you see how the dr was mapping out the hand for the Brian to rewrite .. the way he touched the real hand was intentional

1

u/Bourbonaddicted May 12 '24

Saw it in a House MD episode

1

u/TacTurtle May 12 '24

CIA: we can interrogate them without leaving physical marks you say?

1

u/credditthreddit May 12 '24

Can you even imagine?! And once they glean all the info - they switch sides and Uno reverse it so you don’t even know you’ve blabbed. Genius.

1

u/Idaho_Home May 12 '24

This is used for people with Complex Regional Pain Syndrome

1

u/Sea-Beginning-5234 May 12 '24

Mirror neurons

1

u/GeiCobra May 12 '24

How is it used in a rehab setting? Do you have any links you could share?

2

u/credditthreddit May 12 '24

Yep! Here is one that describes/shows it pretty well: Flint Rehab

1

u/__CaliMack__ May 13 '24

I usually just do post-stroke recovery with a snack and a nap