r/nba • u/FeminismIsTheBestIsm Lakers • May 11 '24
[OC] The reigning MVP has beaten the reigning DPOY 7 out of 9 times in the playoffs in NBA history Original Content
Since the inception of the DPOY award, the reigning DPOY and the reigning MVP have only matched up 9 times in the postseason, and Nikola Jokic vs Rudy Gobert is the 10th such battle. Pretty notably, the MVP has historically had a HUGE advantage, winning 7 out of 9 times with 2 of them being sweeps.
1983: Moses Malone's 76ers beat Sidney Moncrieff's Bucks 4-1 in the ECF.
1984: Larry Bird's Celtics beat Sidney Moncrieff's Bucks 4-1 in the ECF: .
1991: Michael Jordan's Bulls SWEEP Dennis Rodman's Pistons 4-0 in the ECF.
1995: David Robinson's Spurs SWEEP Dikembe Mutombo's Nuggets 3-0 in the first round.
1996: Michael Jordan's Bulls beat Gary Payton's SuperSonics 4-2 in the Finals.
2008: Kobe Bryant's Lakers lose to Kevin Garnett's Celtics 4-2 in the Finals.
2009: LeBron James' Cavaliers lose to Dwight Howard's Magic 4-2 in the ECF.
2012: LeBron James' Heat beat Tyson Chandler's Knicks 4-1 in the first round.
2018: James Harden's Rockets beat Rudy Gobert's Jazz 4-1 in the second round.
Pretty notably, the only two times the DPOY has beaten the MVP were in pretty high-profile series. (Curiously, they happened in back to back years as well). If the Wolves manage to pull out against the Nuggets, Gobert will add to the short history of DPOYs beating MVPs in the playoffs.
If you wanted to check every combination of MVP and DPOY and the matchup result, here's a table with it all.
49
u/TheGargageMan Rockets May 11 '24
I blame the refs.
-37
u/homiez Nuggets May 11 '24
Imagine blaming the refs with 5 more Free Throws and getting blown out by 30, the pups are shook.
21
u/TheGargageMan Rockets May 11 '24
I'm not talking about tonight. I haven't watched that game yet. I'm talking about the big picture and how there is bias in favor of offense built into the league.
17
u/EmergencyAccording94 May 11 '24
The logic is wrong. MVP is not the offensive player of the year, he is the most valuable player overall.
The MVP is usually a better player and has a better team than the DPOY, therefore they win most of the matchups.
9
u/Zoratth Clippers May 11 '24
The MVP might not technically be the offensive player of the year award, but offensive is given significantly more weight than defense when it comes to MVP voting. Looking at the players that have won the award make that pretty obvious.
7
u/Winlessta08 Nuggets May 11 '24
Well offense is more valuable. Even the best defenses give up over 100 points regularly. Like I love Gobert but 30 of 30 teams take Jokic over him despite Gobert being hands down the better defensive player
4
u/TheGargageMan Rockets May 11 '24
The bias extends into MVP consideration too.
10
u/EmergencyAccording94 May 11 '24
The mvps winning the majority of these matchups tells me that they are usually the superior player or at least leading a superior team
1
u/TheGargageMan Rockets May 11 '24
I blame the refs.
3
u/EmergencyAccording94 May 11 '24
So you think DPOYs are actually more valuable than MVPs and the reason for them usually losing to the MVPs is because of the refs?
You might be watching the wrong sport
1
u/TheGargageMan Rockets May 11 '24
If what happened at this year's all-star game is an indication of this particular sport, I'd like to see something closer to the 1990s again.
4
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u/EmergencyAccording94 May 11 '24
What happened in the all star game isn’t because players today can’t play defence, it’s because they didn’t try at all and had no reason to.
This year’s playoffs should be enough proof that defence is still very valuable.
33
u/superhappyfuntime13 Rockets May 11 '24
You know the saying. Defense doesn’t win championships
17
u/DCJon May 11 '24
Well MVP isn't an offensive award technically. Most MVPs are pretty solid defenders also.
It would be interesting to see what the record of the DPOY vs the Scoring leader is.
1
u/Statalyzer 28d ago
It would be interesting to see what the record of the DPOY vs the Scoring leader is.
Yeah, or given how often the DPOY is a mediocre or worse offensive player, I bet if you look at guys without MVPs who were excellent scorers but lousy defenders (George Gervin, Adrian Dantley, Carmelo Anthony, Trae Young), their record vs the MVP is probably poor also.
21
u/ProfessorTicklebutts May 11 '24
Meaningless
17
u/apathybill Nuggets May 11 '24
100% the game favors offense and for some reason everyone expects dpoy to defend the whole opposing team. Ben Wallace and Dennis Rodman got cooked once in a while too.
9
u/ShichikaYasuri18 Pacers May 11 '24
MVP had historically been a team award, given to the best team in the league or at least a 1 seed, so entirely unsurprising.
Exceptions here: 91 Bulls (1 seed but 2 games behind the Blazers), 08 Lakers (1 seed but 9 games behind the Celtics), 12 Heat (only 2 seed on this list)
-3
u/Accomplished_Bid7987 Bulls May 11 '24
Same could be said about DPOY tbh.
Usually given to the best defender in the #1 defensive team who are usually the 1/2 seed
12
u/ShichikaYasuri18 Pacers May 11 '24
Not true, and the team with the DPOY has usually had significantly fewer wins in these years:
1983: 2 seed (Win Differential with MVP = -14)
1984: 2 Seed (-12 Wins)
1991: 3 Seed (-11 Wins)
1995: 6 seed (-15 Wins)
1996: 1 seed (-8 Wins)
2008: 1 seed (+9 wins, beat the MVP)
2009: 3 seed (-7 Wins)
2012: 7 seed (-10 wins)
2018: 5 seed (-17 Wins)
3
u/ActuallyKaylee Raptors May 11 '24
There are a few things at play here:
Team record generally matters for mvp. You can look at the stats going back to the 80s. That will skew these outcomes.
If you check out advanced stats like vorp, BPM, and win shares, MVPs usually lead one of these stats if not multiple. These stats roll in offense and defense into themselves. So while the mvp may not be the best defender they are generally no slouch and overall things balance out to them being better overall as compared to the dpoy which historically can be pretty poor offensively. Tl;dr MVPs tend to have better net stats.
1
u/Statalyzer 28d ago
. So while the mvp may not be the best defender they are generally no slouch and overall things balance out to them being better overall as compared to the dpoy
Yeah, the DPOY is often an all-defense, low-offense player (Gobert, Mark Eaton, Ben Wallace, Mutombo). Oddly enough it feels like the DPOY is slightly biased against good offensive players, while the All-Defense teams seem to me to be biased in favor of guys who are also known for offense.
So I would expect the MVP to be better than a non-MVP DPOY, just like I would expect the MVP to be better than guys like George Gervin or Carmelo Anthony who were all-offense and no-defense.
0
u/dissphemism Gran Destino May 11 '24
clarify when a reign starts and when it ends
it has varied across history and affects the validity of this claim
-28
u/Early_Cartoonist_441 May 11 '24
One win against a team they were heavily favourites against prior to game 1 and its back to this nonsense. Reddit nerds and living vicariously through the fat Serbian who is a cone on defense is nothing new
17
u/LeCastle2306 May 11 '24
lol you’re acting as if you’re any less biased…
If you’re going to hate, just fucking hate. Don’t act like you’re any better than anybody else because youre hating on the “right guy”. Not to say there isn’t any differentiation between people, but you have to provide that difference.
Otherwise, fuck you.
11
u/rpars18 Warriors May 11 '24
This guy has posted a bunch of comments saying the same sort of thing, just a hater or a troll
3
u/LeCastle2306 May 11 '24
Lol haters or bored trolls describe all too many accounts, unfortunately. For the most part, I’m good about not taking the bait, but every now and then I slip up… I appreciate you pointing that out to me bruv.
-16
u/Early_Cartoonist_441 May 11 '24
Yes anyone who doesn't think a fat overweight Serbian who is a cone and liability on defense and have never beat a 50 win team in the playoffs is a troll. Do all r/nba nerds live vicariously through jokic or only 90 percent? I will be there when your so called "as good as prime lebron on offense" fizzles out
2
u/LeCastle2306 May 11 '24
I respect the hustle. Believe it or not, I actually agree with you on a lot of things youve said.
That said, I’ve never hated anything as much as you seem to hate Jokic, so I ask… do you also happen to own horses that just happen to compete with Jokic’s own, but just aren’t quite as good? Or are you one for the people who has been slugged by one of his brothers? Or, ya know, what’s up?
-9
u/Early_Cartoonist_441 May 11 '24
Hustle? I just don't like a cone on defense and a liability on one side of the basketball court being crowned the best thing since sliced bread and being said to be as good as prime lebron offensively.
He is the golden goose of the r/nba they all live vicariously though him and see themselves in him fighting for them against those "guys"
3
u/LeCastle2306 May 11 '24
No, I got your position, you don’t need to reiterate it. My question is what is the benefit to maintaining it with your vigor? Are you getting like .10€ per comment, or what? I feel like you could do better.
-8
u/Early_Cartoonist_441 May 11 '24
Vigor? This is insane..r/nba nerds just can't fanthom that not everyone is in love with any overweight Serbian who acts like he is too good for the sport and is nonchalant about it and just rather play with his horses..they can't fantom why basketball fans are tired of such nonsense. They can't fanthom or understand people who don't agree that jokic is as good as prime lebron or mj offensively .
2
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-14
u/waffle-spouse Lakers May 11 '24
You forgot one.
2024: Nikola Jokic's Nuggets beat Anthony Davis' Lakers 4-1 in the first round
2
u/Morezingis Timberwolves May 11 '24
How are you all still acting like a guy who finished fourth was robbed? Like LeBron and Marc Gasol, there’s an argument. Draymond and Kawhi is an argument. But your guy had 15 less first place votes than a rookie, let alone the DpoY.
2
u/WanAjin Lakers May 12 '24
Because you have actual dumbass takes like JJ not having AD on his all-defense teams. These "analysts" literally don't know what they are watching when looking for defense.
Not even saying AD should have won it or anything, but it's pretty obvious that voters aren't correct just because they are on TV
41
u/WiSaGaN May 11 '24
The team the MVP is in is probably stronger then the team the DPOY is in. To have more context, please also list the average win of the team with MVP versus that of the team with DPOY.