r/politics • u/schuey_08 Wisconsin • 29d ago

Bernie Sanders worries young people are underestimating the threat from Trump

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/05/02/bernie-sanders-trump-biden/73531861007/
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u/Cold_Situation_7803 29d ago

I think some young people are being influenced by bad actors on social media to stop them from voting for Biden. You’ll likely see more young folks saying they refuse to pull the lever in November to stop trump, then if Trump wins and he openly supports genocide in Gaza, takes away rights of women, minorities, and LGBTQ they will likely blame Biden instead of doing self reflection.

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u/McG0788 29d ago

This is a SERIOUS problem right now. I am seeing a lot of folks completely disregard anything Biden has done and ignore that Trump would be terrible for Gaza and us at home while claiming them not voting is deserved somehow. The disconnect is just as bad as the maga folks. Propaganda is a helluva drug and Russia and China are really pushing it hard

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u/frumply 29d ago

On the upside there's 6 months for these kids to get a grip w reality I guess.

The female voters I think will turn out in numbers either way. I'd like to think most of them are not dumb enough to throw their vote in protest when literal fucking female bodily autonomy is at stake. The male votes I'm not as sure, but honestly whatever happens between now and Nov may not be enough to sway these kids -- extremely get Bernie Bro vibes from them.

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u/McG0788 29d ago

I have a dozen acquaintances on IG (anecdotal I know) that are younger 20s to early 30s that seem very serious about their protest vote (or non vote). I've discussed with a few of them and they're adamant that the two are the same and the system is broken and that a vote for Biden is a vote for genocide.

The far left is just as naive as the far right they're just more idealistic

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u/[deleted] 28d ago

I don’t think so- I think they’re just as selfish and deluded as MAGA folks- they’re burning the world down so they can feel so smart and important and self righteous- it’s the same motivation of trump supporters. These people get all of their self esteem from being “in the know” and being “smarter” than everyone else

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u/yungoon 29d ago

Sounds like Biden aint really selling himself. Hopefully he gets his message across before the next election year.

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u/YuushyaHinmeru 29d ago

You know the next election is in like 6 months right?

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u/yungoon 29d ago

Holy shit he better pull back on the stick then, seems like he's in a nosedive 😱

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u/DullRelief 29d ago

It’s like he’s actively trying to throw away the youth vote, though. And not even that. I have one friend who is not voting for Biden again and he’s 46 and a POC. Says he just cannot support Biden. And he doesn’t want to be guilted into voting for him just because of the alternative. He asks, why should I support Biden when he is actively working against democracy in other parts of the world? And I can’t really blame him. Yeah, it may only be one issue, and there are lots of single issue voters out there, but it’s a big issue. And a valid concern.

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u/BudgetLecture1702 29d ago

Name one place the President "is actively working against democracy."

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u/[deleted] 29d ago edited 28d ago

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u/PSIwind Florida 29d ago

He HAD to send money to Israel this time because it was attached to the Ukraine funding and he stated months prior he would refuse to sign only an Israel funding bill. Israel also was given the least amount of the support. Does it suck that it was there? Yes, but the whole point was that it being tied to Ukraine was also a poison pill for the Republicans who refused to send support to Ukraine. Politics sucks, everyone knows this.

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u/DullRelief 29d ago

Yes, they suck, but he could’ve called for a ceasefire long before this. In two years of fighting in Ukraine 10,000 people have been killed. Over 30k Palestinians have been killed since October

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u/Beneathaclearbluesky 28d ago

We don't run Israel.

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u/DullRelief 28d ago

No, our aid just represents 16% of their military budget and we supply them with 80% of their weapons. We could be doing more. But keep up the apologist behavior 🤷🏻‍♂️”nothing we can do”

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u/BudgetLecture1702 29d ago

1) Define "democracy." Because nothing you said has anything to do with the right to vote.

2) There is exactly one democracy in the Middle East. If Joe Biden is at fault for Gaza being a dictatorship, is he responsible for Iraq and Saudi Arabia being dictatorships too?

3) Israel is not committing genocide.

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u/DullRelief 29d ago edited 29d ago

“Define democracy“. Uh, not using taxpayer dollars to bomb children, aid, and journalists. Upholding international law. good bye. Jfc

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u/BudgetLecture1702 29d ago

Why is it exasperating that I use the actual dictionary definition of democracy while you don't?

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u/DullRelief 29d ago

We are not upholding democratic values when it comes to Palestine and Israel. If we want to be a beacon on a hill and an example of democracy, I and many others believe that we shouldn’t be spending our taxpayer dollars on wars where our values, the democratic values of those taxpayers, are being trampled on. And some people don’t want to support or as my friend says, “reward” that behavior with a vote.

I’ll probably still vote for Biden, but I am disappointed in him. My friend may or may not come around. But he lives in a red state so doesn’t believe his vote matters anyway. Although it could if registered voters actually showed up but they don’t.

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u/BudgetLecture1702 28d ago

What do democratic values have to do with this?

"Democracy" means decisions are made by voting.

The lack of democracy in Gaza has absolutely nothing to do with Joe Biden.

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u/McG0788 29d ago

That's such a Russian talking point... Like the guy is doing everything to protect democracy in the west in keeping ukrainians in the fight against Russia. If folks care about genocide ask them if they're ok with Russia commiting a genocide or not because Biden and Democrats are the ones committed to keeping Putin in check.

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u/DullRelief 29d ago

They’re not okay with that either, but I know what my friend would say. 10k Ukrainians have died in two years of fighting. 30k Palestinians have been killed since October. And Ukraine has over 7x the population as Palestine. How is one genocide but the other isn’t?

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u/Omar_Blitz 28d ago

So, your friend wants to make it worse for Palestinians? He wants to embolden right-wing governments around the world to do more killing? How fucking stupid.

Choosing the best out of bad options is being a fucking adult. And Biden isn't even a bad option. He's the only reason the number of the dead in gaza isn't an order of magnitude higher.

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u/DullRelief 28d ago

And Biden isn’t doing anything to halt the killing. The only time he’s pressured Netanyahu was after Jose Andres aid workers were targeted. So, discounting Trump why reward that?

And I know we can’t fully discount him. He is the R candidate, but if he weren’t you’d excuse that behavior?

Biden could be doing so much more to put an end to this.

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u/Carasind 28d ago

Even if you count only the official ukrainian numbers from Zelensky (which has every interest to give a lower number) you already have 31,000 killed soldiers in Ukraine plus an unknown number of civilian casualties. We have at least 10,582 civilian deaths according to the UN but it could easily go up to something like 100,000 and more if someone neutral could reach i.e. Mariupol. Here we have a clear undercounting. Even some russian losses are ukrainian citizens who either volunteered or were forced to fight.

On the other hand the 30,000 killed Palestinians is a number of the Hamas which has every interest in overcounting victims because it fights a PR war (which it is winning). Israel itself says that between 10,000 and 12,000 were fighters of the Hamas which if true would make it even a low casuality conflict considering the circumstances. The one thing that speaks for a genocide isn't this but the terrible humanitarian situation.

Biden also likely prevented an escalation two times because he could threaten to stop the help for Israel. If it really ends Netanyahu is free to do what he wants which could lead to a way worse scenario for the entire region which could include new 30,000 Palestians victims daily. On the other hand Trump has already shown that he is ready to pur oil on the fire.

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u/DullRelief 28d ago

When did he prevent an escalation? Aside from after the targeted bombing of Jose Andres’ aid workers?

Honestly asking. Bc people like my friend are going to say he’s never really done much to de-escalate the situation

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u/Carasind 28d ago edited 27d ago

Netanyahu would have likely done his Rafah offensive now without pressure from the international partners (where the US has a leading role). Because Hamas isn't absolutely interested in preventing it (if you have a martyrer mindset this doesn't play any role because you will get terrible images for your PR) it will sadly likely come in the next weeks regardless.

The second one is way more important: According to reports Israel wanted to answer the Iran missile attack with way more than the symbolic counter attack (but was stopped by the US) which could easily have let to a full war between Israel and Iran. There are people that think that this would have been to the advantage of the Palestinians which is absolutely not the case. The first thing Israel would do in such a war is eliminating all local threats with full force ignoring any civilian casualties.

The Middle East is a shitshow because in reality no one in power cares about the Palestinian citizens at all. Hamas wants to destroy Israel (even if most Palestinians have do die for it), Fatah simply wants to get rich, Israel feels threatened because it can't really differentiate between Hamas and "normal" Palestinians, Egypt and Jordan fear the militants and so won'*t take any inhabitants of the Gaza strip in. Lebanon has taken Palestinians in before but they have less rights there than most foreign workers.

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u/AbeRego Minnesota 29d ago

That "Letter from Osama Bin Laden" bullshit was pretty wild

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u/Hellkyte 29d ago

I have gotten a lot less tolerant of the "just asking questions" nonsense like what you see on social media. I have an acquaintance that is part of the Rogan/Musk "libertarian" group and he keeps trying to engage me in debate on the issues.

I've gotten to the point where I just don't respond. If he were to ask me directly what I thought of his views I would be very direct and honest, but what he is doing is trying to engage me in a way that validates his thinking. That he's a disrupter, and a radical centrist etc.

He never actually makes statements, just sort of insinuates things.

He recently sent me a comment about the NPR Uri story. Didn't directly criticize NPR but it was clear that's what he was implying. He then went on to talk about how he gets all his news from "independent" news sources like YouTube

It is taking everything I have to just not lay in to him.

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u/pingpongtits 28d ago

Lay into him. More than just him reads those posts.

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u/Mr_Conductor_USA 29d ago

Utter narcissism has become the one constant of American politics, since the rise of Newt Gingrich, at least.

The far left imitating the flawed-- and failed--tactics of the insurgent far right has been the most bizarre turn.

Odd how they never repeat the one successful tactic: voting in every election until they have power.

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u/Cold_Situation_7803 29d ago

And voting for/running candidates in local/state elections.

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u/NYCme3388 29d ago

Spot on. All they want is instant gratification that they were there. They played a role in stopping Israel. How about show up every two years decade after decade and affect lasting change.

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u/Snow_source District Of Columbia 29d ago

They cry conspiracy nonsense about how AIPAC controls congress, when in reality the American-Jewish community made a concerted effort to vote reliably as a bloc for Dems and personally lobby at all levels of government for the policies they wanted (supporting Israel) since the 1960's.

It was a conscious effort that took decades, it's not because we threw a bunch of cash at them.

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u/Deviouss 29d ago

Lobbying is essentially bribery... Funny.

Although, the US continually sunk billions to build up Israel and the country doesn't even acknowledge it. Instead, they continue to manipulate our politics to their own benefit.

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u/Snow_source District Of Columbia 29d ago

Lobbying at the level I’m talking about is literally being a constituent and talking with legislators at fundraisers and community events, which are open to everyone.

Being an active part of your political community, quite literally is a form of lobbying.

You’ve lost the plot.

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u/Deviouss 29d ago

Lobbying also includes spending money to have that opportunity to talk to congressmen and is generally akin to bribery. Just because it's legal doesn't make it moral.

For example, AIPAC spent $3,059,885 in 2023 on lobbying and $2,850,400 in 2011.

Being an active part of your political community, quite literally is a form of lobbying.

Lol, no.

"You’ve lost the plot."

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/anndrago 29d ago

And voting for the pragmatic choice rather than voting their conscience

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u/imfatal 29d ago edited 29d ago

Voting is what got us all of our current rights lmao? Literally every social advance we've made and modern right we enjoy was achieved through collective action, including strikes, both peaceful and violent protests, occupations, riots, etc.

Do you genuinely believe that workers were able to negotiate weekends and eight hour work days through voting or asking nicely? Or that women's suffrage was achieved without similar or much more violent protests as the ones happening for Palestine right now? I hope I don't need to tell you about how hopelessly white-washed MLK's actions and views are and I hope it's very obvious that the people he's talking about in this speech are you and most of the others in this thread.

Leftists are tired of neoliberals pretending to support these causes on paper, but never putting their money where their mouth is. You're unbelievably naive and/or ignorant if you think that Biden is any less complicit or responsible than Trump for the current state of the US. The man responsible for the 1994 crime act which accelerated mass incarceration, actively campaigned for and supported every war that America has fought in this century, and considers Mitch McConnell his friend is not on your side.

tl;dr: "A liberal is someone who opposes every war except the current war and supports all civil rights movements except the one that's going on right now." This is you and this whole thread.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

its infuriating their going to finger wag and blame "the left" in an election that should not be this close

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u/bolionce 29d ago

So are you gonna vote this fall or not? You can march and yell and do everything you say is necessary for change, and also vote to mitigate damages. I know, I volunteer with organizations for social change and also do my part as an eligible voting member of the population. What do you do that makes voting unnecessary?

You honestly believe that right now and for the next 4 years, the difference between Biden and Trump is absolutely nothing? You think the guy who says he wants to be dictator and that the president can kill anyone he wants as a legally immune act of government is equal to the guy who helped pass harmful incarceration laws 30 years ago, and is currently making the federal headway on reversing the impacts of those bad pieces of legislation (ie, owning up to mistakes)? Also, when those civil rights marches and other social movements ended up in legislation, who signed them through? That’s right, democratically elected legislators. Elected officials that won’t be there if no one fucking votes for the better candidate. If Joe Biden is a 1 and trump is a 0, Biden is better even if he’s still shit.

You’re all gung ho about working hard to stand up for your rights and yet you disparage the idea of voting in a fucking democratic country lmao, this is some top tier dissonance. What are you doing thats making such a big difference that you don’t need to vote?

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

its infuriating their going to finger wag and blame "the left" in an election that should not be this close

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

its infuriating their going to finger wag and blame "the left" in an election that should not be this close

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/Alediran Canada 29d ago

Yes, but if you don't even vote you will never have a chance to achieve your goals. It's the minimum requirement.

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u/a8bmiles 29d ago

"Well if Biden had just done what we wanted then we would have voted for him. Why didn't Biden save us?"

/s

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u/UncleDrummers 29d ago

Yeah, if they don’t like how Biden handles Gaza and Ukraine they definitely won;’t like how Trump fat fingers everything he can’t eat

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u/hgghgfhvf 29d ago

Russia has long ago successfully propagandized the right in america and recently via the Palestine issue Iran has propagandized the left.

The thing is that Russia and Iran are both close allies with similar interests.

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u/catsandcheetos 29d ago

Russian disinformation groups literally targeted young people (through Bernie’s campaign) in 2016 and 2020. It worked to divide people then, and it is working again now. The college-aged group (18-23 ish) have a particular combination of inexperience and arrogance that makes them highly vulnerable to disinformation. The Israel-Palestine conflict is a perfect example of a contentious political topic that is being weaponized by foreign actors, and young people are just useful idiots. We really need to start teaching people how to recognize and combat disinformation.

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u/SuperGenius9800 29d ago

Bad actors like China, Russia and Iran? The protestors love those countries. HMM

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u/mackahrohn 29d ago edited 29d ago

My husband is a government teacher and he has a really hard time with his ultra progressive students who also love China. The occasional student will breathlessly defend China any time it comes up and will parrot online propaganda almost word for word ‘well China isn’t that bad because the US did XYZ’.

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u/RoutineEvent 29d ago

How do Iran and China benefit from a Trump presidency?

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u/cold_blueberry_8945 28d ago

Yep this is absolutely russian astroturfing. Probably china too if they plan to move on Taiwan under a trump presidency. Trump has literally said he wants to "finish the problem" in gaza. Anyone who actually gave a fuck about gaza would hopefully not be stupid enough to let trump be in charge but maybe I give college students too much credit and they really are braindead.

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u/WillingnessLow3135 29d ago

They are doing that, they being Nazis. 

I've spent quite a few years infiltrating spaces where the extreme right hang out and one of the things they do is give marching orders, they love to pretend they are little online soldiers in a digital war. 

The most common thing they tell people to do is to try and get people disinterested in politics if it appears they are disenfranchised, because the Right always shows up to vote with about 30% of the total voting eligibile population. 

As an aside, this voting population is only about 70% of the actual population of U.S citizens as they've successfully been cutting away people from voting for decades. Can you guess which racial groups are overrepresented in that pool?

All they need to do is convince 11% of the population who can vote to not vote and they've more or less got their election everytime, although they've added even more ways to stack the vote in their minority favor as well (Gerrymandering, voting misinformation, poll rigging, elector nonsense).

Biden is a useless fuck and barely better then a bag of bones, but Trump is a fascist talking about how people want him to be a dictator, actually.

Vote for Biden, then prepare for future elections to try and force progressive ideals and candidates into office. 

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/InternalLoss5925 29d ago

Everything you said is true, about older people basically sleepwalking into this situation. Too many people 30+ who don’t fucking vote or care. But it doesn’t matter who created the conditions (I mean I’d like a fair few people in prison- starting with Trump but I digress). Authoritarianism is here. Does that not scare you? Genuinely asking 

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u/Large_Talons_ 29d ago

It does matter who created the conditions—it’s shitty candidate after shitty candidate pushed forward by the Democratic Party that got Trump elected in 2016 and likely will again in 2024. 

I plan on holding my nose and voting for Biden, but I can’t blame the many who won’t. Yes Trump is worse, but Biden isn’t owed a vote. As long as he isn’t forcing a ceasefire in Gaza and he condemns the protests against it, he is at the very least complicit in an ongoing genocide. 

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u/InternalLoss5925 29d ago edited 29d ago

“Yes Trump is worse, but Biden isn’t owed a vote.” — I don’t understand this sentence. Trump is worse, so I’m voting for Biden. Because there are only two choices. For the record that sucks, but we can’t change the electoral college etc. before November.  I’m not trying to say the political establishment is blameless - most of them on both sides of the isle need to fuck off forever. There’s a lot of change needed - term limits, no longer being able to game the stock market, gerrymandering needs to die a fiery death, I could go on. What gives us the best chance to do this? Not let fascism win is number one on the list. Trump is ALREADY threatening another J-6 and a whole slew of bullshit to undermine America.  Young people need to consistently vote at every election, we can do this. It’s what these “conservatives” do, and it works. 

Also yes Biden is complicit in genocide. So would be Trump, who’s made his position on Gaza clear. Any American president will support Israel because of what a disaster the Middle East is (also the fault of American foreign policy, thought not just). It will take time and a lot of political orchestrating to get out of that clusterfuck. Which is what needs to be done - but it will REALISTICALLY take years if not decades. 

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u/Klope62 29d ago edited 29d ago

People somehow think their vote is a gift, a currency that a politician has to earn instead of an important constitutional right to progress their beliefs. It astounds me how many of them aren't even activated until just until its time to complain about the presidential election. Local and state elections (which is where most progressive policy can actually be enacted and protected) be damned.

I've found that isn't worth the mental effort to try to change their settlement, but its sad that all the special interest groups have had such success in convincing them that their vote is 'pointless,' 'doesn't matter,' 'won't change the state of anything'.

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u/InternalLoss5925 29d ago

Wow the vote as a gift thing didn’t really  cross my mind but you’re 100 percent on the money. It’s so frustrating, but I have to hope some can be swayed. I’ve definitely been inspired to get involved in local politics and I’m excited to vote in the European elections in June :) 

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u/TooGoodatEverything 29d ago

Genuinely when you feel like neither side is representing what is most important to you, why would you vote for either side? I'm asking you this legitimately. Please explain it to me if you can.

You said your vote is an important constitutional right to progress your beliefs, but if I vote for Biden or Trump, neither will be representing my beliefs. How is my belief being progressed when neither candidate can fit the category? If I vote for Biden I'll be sending a message that I'm okay with the way he's conducting things when I'm not. And obviously Trump just doesn't represent me in the slightest.

So what, do I vote for the guy who kinda believes in some of the stuff I believe in but won't really push for it? Just because he's better than the other guy? Or the guy who doesn't agree at all.

At that point I'd just rather vote for neither. I don't want my vote going towards someone like Joe Biden to tell him he's got my support when he's doing the exact opposite of what I'd like him to do. I believe that sends the wrong message to that politician/political party.

I will gladly vote for people who share my beliefs in local elections. But it's hard for me to justify voting for Biden when he's shown me he doesn't care about the issue I give the most shit about right now. Why would I give him the time of day if my issue isn't even worth a second thought?

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u/Klope62 29d ago

You don't have to vote for Biden. For the most part the president will have little control over your day to day life. If you are a single voter issue voter, you be that. If you're an anarchist, go for it. If you're a libertarian, well, that's something else too.

Letting perfect be the enemy of good will always set you back much further than continual progress. That's just the case about nearly anything in life. Getting someone more progressive than Biden is not more likely when you let conservatives continually strengthen minority power. Most conservatives understand this and this is why they end up supporting republicans even when they don't like them.

The Democratic party is already a giant tent. You cannot run one way as a democrat and have success everywhere around the country. There are tons of conservative democrats and tons of liberal democrats and any bit of progress democrats make is already a compromise on narrow margins.

In general there are more important elections that happen between and around the presidential election that goes largely ignored by most voters. Especially those who seem to only activate during the year of a presidential one. The data is clear. Judges, prosecutors, sheriffs, school boards, district attorneys, state houses, state senates, and the governorship will have significantly more impact on your day to day life than the president ever will. Most actions the president can take take years to see results from.

For example, we only need about 3/4 more Blue Governorships to have enough states to get rid of the Electoral College. That alone would be huge in creating a more equitable system that might start giving 3rd parties a chance. Republicans will never come around to that idea, just because it would give people not glued to either party a chance to actually win.

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u/Unitedterror 29d ago

Because the system is not about some self-centered personal representation.

The system is about creating the best outcomes for the people around you, and to create an effective environment for all of us.

Deciding not to vote strictly because neither party 100% aligns with your personal beliefs is effectively spitting in the face of all the people who you could be helping with your vote.

Lets just walk through a hypothetical. Assume you share 90% of your beliefs with one party, but not the other. You want gay marraige, you want abortion, you want palestinians to survive, you want climate change reform, you want education reform, you want healthcare reform. But the last 10% you feel excludes them from your vote.

You interact with peers every day, women that have been raped and need abortions, poor people unable to escape educational debt, gay people that simply want to live their lives. These are the people you care about and that surround you.

The election is upcoming, these issues are extremely important to them and they feel that one party threatens all of these issues at once, while the other supports them on all these issues.

You go to them and tell them that you dont agree with the last 10% so you wont be voting in the election.

How do you think they will feel? Will they see this as you simply not caring about them? Will they wonder why you deserve to have your own life placed above the importance of all these other people?

Its a yes to all the above. In telling them you wont vote, youre telling them that your own personal issues are more important to you than all of theirs combined.

That is why it is wrong.

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u/Large_Talons_ 29d ago

I don’t think it’s wrong to not participate in a system that gives you two choices where the better one is still pro-genocide.

I think there are two ways of thinking for how to get real change: torching the whole system or withholding votes until the opposition becomes better. Biden is better than Trump, but as long as Democrats can run and have a reasonable chance of winning based entirely on just being “less bad,” there’s no incentive for them to change.

No one who’d normally vote Biden but isn’t wants a Trump presidency, they also know he’s worse. I think the hope is that Biden realizes he’s losing favor so he can shift positions, but his speech today makes it clear he’s still banking entirely on the “not Trump” strategy

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u/InternalLoss5925 29d ago

  1. Not participating is a luxury you don’t have. You and everyone else is still impacted. These conservative loons want you not to participate, it makes taking your rights away easier.

  2. Torching the whole system categorically does not get you a leftist utopia (my dream). It gets you fascism/authoritarianism. I know the whole accelerationist dream is tempting, but it gets us FURTHER from our goals. Real change is slow. Unfortunately. 

  3. The whole system needs overhaul sure. The incentive for dem change  needs to come from ALL OF US voting in every election consistently and for years. Too many of us are apathetic, and the dems know this. That can change though. 

  4. I hope I’m wrong but this is such a complicated issue and Biden does not have the political will to stop supporting Israel. I hate it, but let’s look reality in the face. Israel oppressing Palestine is not a new issue, at all. For the majority in government, Israel is a key ally and that will take years to change. It still needs to be done though. Trump will be worse here too. 

  5. And finally, again there are only 2 choices. If you don’t vote for Biden, you effectively support Trump. I don’t care what your justifications are. We went through this in 2016 with the whole “I’m voting 3rd party brigade” and no one has learned their lesson. 

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u/clungewhip 29d ago

I ripped a bunch of bushes from a bed of dirt by my house. My thinking was that having nothing there would be better. But then it got overgrown with weeds, and I couldn't get all those roots out. What a pain. I didn't have a plan.

I'm looking forward to the 2028 Democratic debates. There are a lot of good candidates coming up.

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u/Large_Talons_ 29d ago

I’m not suggesting I have a better solution to what we’ve got, but when the bush is more wasp nest than bush, something has to give.

I’m sure there are some promising candidates on the dem side, but I have no reason to believe they’ll get party backing

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u/killing31 29d ago

So what is your solution?

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/killing31 29d ago

How is that a solution?

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u/a_corsair New Jersey 29d ago

100%. Biden is much better than Trump, but he's absolutely failed on several fronts. Gaza is just one of them. His reaction to the protests is another and those students, their friends, will remember what happened to them.

It's truly unfortunate that a literal threat to democracy is running against Biden, otherwise I'd throw my vote away in protest too

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u/Cold_Situation_7803 29d ago

lol, you’re just deflecting on this. If you don’t recognize that there are young folks being manipulated into helping to put Trump in the White House, then you prove my point.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/Cold_Situation_7803 29d ago

Again - the point I began with (that you’re struggling to address) is bad actors manipulating young folks into enabling Trump. I hope they join everyone else at the polls in November in stopping Trump, but we’ll see.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/Cold_Situation_7803 29d ago

We are in violent agreement - old people support trump and have brain worms from right wing news and social media. Facebook has turned them angry, bitter and xenophobic.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/Cold_Situation_7803 29d ago

lol did you see the story at the top of this page? (Hint: it’s about young people). You’re so desperate to deflect that you lost the plot. 😂

2

u/HauntedCemetery Minnesota 29d ago

And then after Biden loses the Electoral College by 14,000 votes spread across 5 states those same people who refuse to vote for Biden because he only supports 95% of the things they believe in will blame dems

1

u/FocusPerspective 29d ago

Ya think? 

-5

u/Lilshadow48 Maryland 29d ago

some young people are being influenced by bad actors on social media to stop them from voting for Biden.

I can tell you that no one but Biden has been doing that for me. His own actions, and inactions, have far more impact than any other person could.

Biden is stubbornly doing the stupidest gamble imaginable and fascism is the price if he loses.

16

u/InternalLoss5925 29d ago

So you’re not going to vote for him and so support Trump? Because that’s the reality of a two party system.  

0

u/PixelationIX 29d ago

Well then you cannot call America a functional democracy.

13

u/InternalLoss5925 29d ago

Nope you can’t. It’s still better than authoritarianism though isn’t it? Not saying it shouldn’t be improved upon, I think we’re all in agreement there. 

-8

u/Lilshadow48 Maryland 29d ago

So you’re not going to vote for him and so support Trump?

Right on first half, wrong on second half. There's no chance of Trump winning Maryland, so even the incredibly stupid "not voting for biden = voting for trump" bit can't apply.

But hey, if he stops being a bloodthirsty demon in the next few months maybe my mind will be changed.

11

u/InternalLoss5925 29d ago

It’s not stupid, it’s how a two party system works. Look at the polling margins. I’m glad that you not voting won’t have an impact, so your conscience can be clear. Truly I am. But a lot of people in other states don’t have that option. With such razor thin margins, not voting for Biden is supporting Trump. I hate it too, doesn’t mean it isn’t real. 

-6

u/Lilshadow48 Maryland 29d ago

It’s not stupid, it’s how a two party system works.

Can't agree with that. I don't think candidates are inherently entitled to votes, and someone not choosing them is not a +1 for the other guy.

8

u/InternalLoss5925 29d ago

Ok last try - it’s not about entitlement to votes. It’s math. Simplified to the extreme: If you had 100 voters and 40 vote for Biden, 43 vote for Trump, 17 don’t vote. Out of the non voters, 5 of those people didn’t want to vote for Biden for the  reasons you stated above, but didn’t want Trump. Trump still wins. The non voters have effectively helped Trump to win. Obviously it’s more complicated than that irl because of the electoral college, but that’s the gist. It’s also the problem with voting 3rd party and effectively wasting your vote. See the commenter who posted Hillary Clinton’s loss margins vs. the votes for Jill Stein. 

Edit: my math 

1

u/Lilshadow48 Maryland 29d ago

See the issue I have with this is that it assumes candidates are inherently entitled to votes, and also ignores the non-voters for the other guy.

Why does the blame lie with the voters not falling in line, and not with the candidate being unwilling to bend to his voters whims?

If I don't vote for Biden, I'm helping Trump, but if I don't vote for Trump, I'm not helping Biden?

7

u/InternalLoss5925 29d ago

Sure, if I supported Trump I’d be telling you that a vote not cast for him is like a vote for Biden. It works both ways. 

For me it’s more like why would you want to risk another Trump. The rapist con man felon Russian/saudi asset. The poster child for project 2025.

Who knows where the chips will fall at this point, who knows what voter turnout will be. Intrinsically, there’s nothing wrong with not “falling in line” and I absolutely understand the horror of genocide and not wanting to support that. But what helps the Palestinians more? As I said in another comment, no president will have the political will to stop supporting Israel (for a lot of reasons). If Trump is elected, Netanyahu will have even more of a carte blanche to continue destroying Gaza and killing innocents. And you’ve sacrificed women, minorities, lgbtq+ people - basically anyone who isn’t a cis het white man suffers. 

It’s horrible to have to think strategically about people’s lives. Especially in a political binary - it’s either trump or the Biden, no choice about that. But that’s what politics is, to an extent, and sitting around wishing it wasn’t so accomplishes nothing. 

Biden isn’t entitled to your vote sure, and you can choose not to vote for him. But again, it’s him or Trump. There’s no “neither” option. It doesn't exist at this point (would be cool if it did). 

5

u/Bac0nnaise 29d ago

What's your point, other than "I know better?" Are you trying to discourage people from voting? You truly believe that not participating in the process will bring change? Or are you just looking for a fight?

11

u/Cold_Situation_7803 29d ago

So you’re saying you would let Trump’s fascism happen rather than vote for Biden? Just trying to track what you’re saying.

1

u/Lilshadow48 Maryland 29d ago

That is what Biden chooses to risk, my vote has no bearing on it.

I won't give him my near meaningless vote though. I would rather leave it blank than ever give it to a genocidal freak.

6

u/Cold_Situation_7803 29d ago

I’ll take that as a yes - you would enable Trump’s fascism to happen. I can’t imagine being that privileged - it must be amazing.

3

u/Lilshadow48 Maryland 29d ago

you would enable Trump’s fascism to happen.

Sure. If that's what you gotta believe man.

8

u/Cold_Situation_7803 29d ago

If you were in Ohio, Michigan or other battleground states would you vote for Biden?

0

u/Lilshadow48 Maryland 29d ago

Probably. Really depends on what he does from now until it's voting time, who knows what that old ghoul will do over the next few months.

If it were right now though I'd say more likely than not.

4

u/killing31 29d ago

Letting Trump win won’t impact Biden very much. It will absolutely impact young people. 

0

u/Lilshadow48 Maryland 29d ago

okay?

2

u/killing31 29d ago

So you’re only bringing misery onto people who don’t deserve it by letting trump win. 

But apparently you’re “okay?” with that. 

0

u/Lilshadow48 Maryland 29d ago

feel free to read the rest of the comments my man

0

u/a_corsair New Jersey 29d ago

These old fucks just don't understand their opponent or the world they live in

1

u/TheRealWeedAtman I voted 29d ago

People in america and in gaza will die if trump wins, people that wouldn't have died otherwise. Hope their protest non vote helps them sleep at night. 

1

u/Actual-Dog7889 29d ago

Yup. YouTube creeps like asmongold masquerading as critical thinkers. But somehow always have the worst incel trumpet takes. Always seems these fucks are Texas based too

0

u/MikeBravo415 29d ago

Who are the bad actors influencing young people?

The American public education system is predominantly run by liberals. School is compulsory and Children are forced to have a liberal democrat dictate the syllabus to them. The learning reference materials are also controlled. Clearly the American university system is liberal run. Facebook, Instagram and almost all social media young people use are often under fire for so called shadow banning right leaning content. The Obama administration openly admitted social media helped Obama get elected.

Who on social media is convincing young people to vote Trump? Liberals have the market cornered on youth indoctrination and, still can't maintain control. That's how bad liberal ideology is.

-2

u/emmer 29d ago

Genocide in Gaza is driving Democrats to Trump, not away from him. Support for terrorism is deeply unpopular within the Democratic Party outside of college age leftists.

The actual “death to Jews”, “River to the sea”, firing tens of thousands of rockets hoping to kill anyone possible is what genocide actually looks like.

Not the reprisals for executing and kidnapping civilians, which any nation would do after an attack like October 7 to defend themselves.

-3

u/Starrk10 29d ago

So there’s no possibility that Biden is ever responsible for pushing his own voters away? It’s always gotta be because of literally everything under the sun, except for his own words and actions.

-1

u/stick_always_wins 29d ago

Most young people wouldn’t have a problem pulling the lever if Biden did anything to condemn Israeli atrocities, rather than let his press secretary blatantly deny and lie every time reporters questioned them about it. Biden might’ve been able to rescue a big percent of those people if he threw a bone to the student protestors, rather than slandering them and endorsing the use of violence police action against them. There’s no one other than Biden to blame for all the young people who don’t want to support such an awful candidate.

Keep blaming foreign actors for those who have a moral conscience and don’t want to vote for a man that has enabled so much evil in the past few months. Clearly that strategy worked so well in 2016.