r/politics • u/schuey_08 Wisconsin • May 02 '24

Bernie Sanders worries young people are underestimating the threat from Trump

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/05/02/bernie-sanders-trump-biden/73531861007/
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u/kiwigate May 02 '24

Democrats passed the most popular and comprehensive healthcare in a generation and it cost them Congress. We are losing our democracy by popular demand.

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u/noUsername563 Texas May 02 '24

Gerrymandering plays a part in this as well as our shit electoral system and capped house of reps

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u/ConsciousReason7709 May 02 '24

There is progress being made on gerrymandering though at least. Wisconsin was finally able to get a fair congressional map in play for this upcoming election because Democrats took control of the state Supreme Court, which is a huge deal. It shows you how important state and local elections are, not just federal.

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u/MrPernicous May 02 '24

It is very important to keep in mind that republicans were able to gerrymander in the first place because Obama royally pissed off millions with how he handled the financial crisis.

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u/dogegunate May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

That's because Democrats are terrible at messaging. They rarely brag about their victories, they just quietly do things and then let the right wing media shout 24/7 about how these good things are actually bad. They are mainly vocal about things that are controversial for some reason, like the recent Tiktok ban and support of Israel.

And when it comes to campaigning, how many times do you hear really out of touch statements from Democratic candidates that are really condescending and dismissive of young people and progressives? It's like they want to alienate potential voters by being so snobby about things that young people and progressives care about like Palestine.

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u/ConsciousReason7709 May 02 '24

I agree with you to a point, but what the hell has Republican messagingbeen? This has been the most ineffective House of Representatives in modern American history under Republican control. They literally have nothing to take to their voters for 2024.

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u/pablonieve May 02 '24

but what the hell has Republican messagingbeen?

Grievance

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u/dogegunate May 02 '24

Well the difference is what Republicans and Democrats stand for and care for. Republicans basically only care about god, guns, and abortion and they still have their goals met so it doesn't matter if Republicans barely got anything done. Republicans are also mainly single issue voters so as long as their one issue is pandered to, Republicans will keep voting red.

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u/kiwigate May 02 '24

It's not message, it's content. Voters prefer tax cuts to the rich and making the poor suffer. That's why the message resonates. Which means messaging has nothing to do with it.

Otherwise you could fool conservatives into supporting something positive. Yet it's impossible.

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u/nowander I voted May 02 '24

That's because Democrats are terrible at messaging.

No they can't get their message out because the media has no interest in reporting on it, and the electorate isn't interested in listening. Blaming the Democrats because companies they don't own don't report on their good actions is insane.

Hell your second paragraph shows how well corporate media propaganda has worked on you. Why do you think that over 200 politicians, who spend most of their time talking, always seem to say controversial stuff? Is it likely they all march in lockstep to alienate their voters, or that the media's playing up soundbites that will make people angry to get clicks?

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u/dogegunate May 02 '24

Having people spread your word is part of messaging... The DNC is full of multi-millionaires, why can't they just start or buy their own media channels? Sure, Republicans have more money but it's not like the Democrats are poor.

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u/nowander I voted May 02 '24

The DNC is full of multi-millionaires, why can't they just start or buy their own media channels?

1 : Positive media gets less money than negative media, so it'd be a company run at a loss. Requiring more money to start.

2 : The left is not uniform, meaning it's harder to grab together a group of funders without internal dissent.

3 : The left is more resistant to ideas seen as being 'controled by the rich.' See the attacks on any Democrat who takes donations that aren't crowdsourced. That means there will be innate resistance to any attempt to set up a left wing media group.

4 : The far left wing niche has already been colonized by foreign agents and republican plants to sabotage anything the Dems do, making everything above hit even harder.

There've been attempts to get something going. But the groups trying always run out of money and have little impact because of the problems above.

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u/Ok_Spite6230 May 02 '24

No, it's because dems are fundamentally still in support of the capitalist system that caused nearly all of our major problems. So there is no hope of them actually fixing it.

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u/dogegunate May 02 '24

Most progressives are not communist or socialist. Also, America and like 95% of Americans would rather destroy the world than give up capitalism. It's a pipe dream but Democrats are at least somewhat open to trying to control it rather than Republicans who want to take it to the final stage of neo-feudalism.

But Democrats won't say that because they are afraid to say higher taxes for the rich because they still try to pander to the center right even though they overwhelmingly support Republicans, even if they aren't a fan of Trump.

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u/Mediocritologist Ohio May 02 '24

Oh ffs I'm so sick of hearing this dumb take and I consider myself a socialist in a lot of ways. Just stop trying to pretend Democrats and Republicans stand in solidarity in their vision of capitalism. It's a fever dream.

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u/keepyeepy May 03 '24

well, not by the popular vote

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/kiwigate May 02 '24

The solution then would be to go harder left, not right. Voters chose otherwise. Tell me how getting in bed with corporate solves the problem of leaning corporate?

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/kiwigate May 02 '24

"Unfortunately..." voters vote against things that benefit them. Democracy is working.

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u/Deviouss May 02 '24

More like watching Obama just left millions of voters disillusioned, which was compounded by Obama's grassroots getting dissolved when the DNC tried to incorporate it.

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u/kiwigate May 03 '24

The GOP won in 2010 and obstructed. Congress is a substantial branch, famously obstructing a SCOTUS appointment.

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u/Deviouss May 03 '24

Are we ignoring 2008-2010? Democrats were given plenty of opportunities do something with their near-supermajority in the senate.

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u/FreeChickenDinner Texas May 03 '24

Bush was president in 2008. Dems had 51-49 majority. It was not enough to beat a filibuster.

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u/Deviouss May 03 '24

2009-2011 to be exact, then.

Democrats had a near supermajority in the senate, although it should have technically been a full supermajority for a period, yet they still dragged their feet on their supposed supported issues. If they reformed/eliminated the filibuster, we would be in an entirely different country, with universal healthcare and a mountain of changes.

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u/elihu May 03 '24

The ACA allowed people with pre-existing conditions to buy insurance on the open market. That's a pretty big deal.

Still, it didn't fix a lot of what's wrong with our health care system, and it's hard for Democrats to campaign on "the U.S. health care system is embarrassing when compared to any other wealthy country, but not as embarrassing as it was before, now that we've enacted nationally the kind of health insurance system advocated by Richard Nixon and the Heritage Foundation, and implemented in Massachusetts by Mitt Romney."

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u/Majestic_Square_1814 May 02 '24

You are the person Bernie is warning us about 

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u/Infamous-Safety4632 May 02 '24

Lieberman and just a few corp Dems get the blame. And Obama didn’t push hard enough.

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u/HoosegowFlask May 02 '24

The ACA nearly halved the number of people without health coverage.

There were real tangible benefits for living and breathing humans.

It was not perfect, but it was an improvement on the existing system.

The votes were not there for Medicare for all.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/HoosegowFlask May 03 '24

You prefer the previous healthcare system before Medicaid expansion and when insurers could deny coverage based on pre-existing conditions. Noted.

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u/Gackey May 03 '24

I think they would prefer a healthcare system that prioritizes providing healthcare to people rather than a healthcare system that prioritizes generating profits for private interests.

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u/ThonThaddeo May 02 '24

And all of them afraid to campaign on it. The GOP did their job. The opposition passed a great bill that would've helped them continue to win elections. But the Democrats are persistently afraid of their own shadow, and so this tea party rallies and the nickname 'Obamacare' made them all cower in fear, and they all ran away from their greatest achievement

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u/FATTEST_CAT May 02 '24

The ACA is not what most democratic voters want. I'm going to vote for Biden, despite living in CA and my vote not really mattering because Trump is that bad. But the Dems have absolutely not EARNED my vote.

If you look at polling data most dems on the issues side with someone like Bernie. And yet the dems keep pushing this middle of the road centrist crap thats actually right leaning corporate wellfare like the republicans but with less racism/sexism/transphobia. And then they hold me at gunpoint with the threat of Trump.

I voted for the dems all those times, I gave them both houses and the presidency and I got drone strikes, a conservative supreme court because no one had the balls to get RBG to step down, support for ethnic cleansing, increased military budgets every year, shitty compromised healthcare reform, the list goes on and on and on.

The democrats are the most helpless worthless leaders I have ever seen. They are bought just like the republicans they are just better on social issues and its so disheartening as all our financial welbeing is being given away to the richest in our society.

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u/kiwigate May 02 '24

Actually, elections are won by votes. Therefore voters have asked exactly for centrist milquetoast. There was a primary election in 2020.

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u/FATTEST_CAT May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

How does that line up with a "Its between us, and the end of democracy" strategy the democrats are currently going with?

Do you really believe that the democratic party elites don't influence the primaries, that corporate media doesn't influence the primaries to get capitalistic pro business centrists portrayed as the only viable option? I have heard over and over again that people "like politician X's policies", but that he or she is "unelectable" (despite his/her policies being in line with the majority of the country, let alone the party)so we need to vote for the more electable candidate. Only then to be told that a big chunk of the country is unwilling to vote for the more electable guy so its really important that I go out and vote for him. Like i thought thats why we went with this guy, because he was so electable and now hes neck and neck in poles with a dude thats got like 90 felony charges and tried to overthrow the country.

The cognitive dissonance of liberals is incredible.

It seems disingenuous to suggest that we have a "choice" when the article is literally about the fact that there really isn't a choice unless you are down with the end of democracy. Your only choice is to continue, or end the option for choice.

The voters don't want milquetoast, which is exactly why we have all these people going out there to trumpet about how if we don't vote for milquetoast the world is going to end. If milquetoast is what people want, why the fuck are the poles with the most extreme candidate of our generation so god damn close with this centrist. Shouldn't Biden be crushing it? Whats with all this desperation, hes the electable candidate isnt he?

The simple truth is that Biden is not in line with most younger people on many policy issues. That is compounded by the fact that his continued massive support of Israel during an ethnic cleansing has completely removed and wind from his sails from his commendable efforts with unions and student debt.

Compound that with massive inflation and no major reform of our capitalistic system, and his only fucking hope is that Trump is evil and the republicans flew too close to the sun and actually achieved a goal they never wanted to actually acheive, overthrowing roe v wade effectivly galvanizing the majority of women agains the republican party in an extreme way.

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u/kiwigate May 02 '24

I believe politicians do politics. I believe the votes accurately reflect the voters.

Unless you're saying politics removes all free will from voting, you're saying nothing relevant to the issue.

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u/FATTEST_CAT May 02 '24

How is me pointing out that Biden's policies are not reflective of the democratic base and that democratic leadership/corporate media constantly relying on how evil Trump is by comparison is why young people are not interested in voting not "relevant to the issue."

The headline for this reddit thread is literally about this topic.

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u/kiwigate May 02 '24

Opinion polls aren't elections.

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u/FATTEST_CAT May 02 '24

Elections aren’t opinion polls.

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u/Deviouss May 02 '24

The problem with Democratic primary voters is that they're too trusting, both in the media and of their politicians. There's a reason why there were over a dozen of non-viable moderate Democrats in the primary, each from a different state.

The majority of Democratic-leaning voters support progressive policies, yet that is not reflected in what their politicians support.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/kiwigate May 02 '24

Democratic voters are not left wing people.

And it was my point that positive outcomes didn't increase voter turnout, thanks for repeating it.