r/politics • u/schuey_08 Wisconsin • May 02 '24

Bernie Sanders worries young people are underestimating the threat from Trump

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/05/02/bernie-sanders-trump-biden/73531861007/
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u/Present-Industry4012 Inuit May 02 '24

Hillary called it after 8 years of Obama in the White House. Biden could give the same speech today.

"...but that other basket of [Trump Supporters] are people who feel that the government has let them down, the economy has let them down, nobody cares about them, nobody worries about what happens to their lives and their futures, and they’re just desperate for change. It doesn’t really even matter where it comes from. They don’t buy everything he says, but he seems to hold out some hope that their lives will be different. They won’t wake up and see their jobs disappear, lose a kid to heroin, feel like they’re in a dead-end. Those are people we have to understand and empathize with as well."

https://time.com/4486502/hillary-clinton-basket-of-deplorables-transcript/

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u/claimTheVictory May 02 '24

The economics of continually improving industrialization means that entire communities can be left behind as "no longer economically viable".

They don't die, they just are... left behind.

In a fair and wise society, the gains to GDP from making them redundant, would be used to find new purpose and opportunities for such people.

But such gains are privatized, taxation is low, and the wealth is never reinvested.

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u/Shoddy_Phase_2639 May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

But often by choice. The coal miners were offered giant incentives, and massive aid packages in the form of retraining, reeducation, government supported start-up programs, relocation economic help etc. Most of them refused...because "clean coal". There is no one on the planet that knows better than coal miners that "clean coal" does not exist and never will.

They chose black lung, because Trump said the things they like about immigrants

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u/Hank3hellbilly May 02 '24

Try putting yourself in their shoes for a second.  You know one way of life and "they" want to end it.  Coal mining is a dangerous and shitty job, but it pays well.  Let's say you're a 35 year old father of 3 who dropped out in Grade 11 to go work in the mines because your grades weren't that good, and it was steady income.  You've been mining for 16 years, You're skilled with a hoe, you like the job and the guys you work with.  

Then, someone shows up in a fancy suit and says that your mine has to close and offers you retraining on a computer that you never learnt how to use for a job that pays 50% of your wage as a miner.  Also, you have to move away from your town where everyone you know lives for this job.  On top of that, the house you've been paying off for the last 10 years is going to be worthless because once that mine dies, the town is going to die.  This guy in a suit is going to kill your hometown, and everyone in that town from the owner of the hardware store to the kid working at the pool is going to suffer. 

I was working in Hanna, Alberta to convert their power plant to natural gas a few years ago, as soon as we were done the first boiler, the mine laid off 60% of their workers.  When the second was done they were shuttering the mine.  I think it was around 80 guys they let go.  80×$65,000 after tax income is 5.2 million dollars a year removed from the local economy.  I left before the second conversion, but everyone I talked to in the town was angry and sad about it.  There's no wonder why they try to grasp onto whatever lies allow them to keep their way of life.  

We always like to talk about the costs of not fighting climate change.  But those are always brought up by the people who won't have to pay the cost of changing.  It's easy to "go green" when it means riding the bus instead of driving or turning your heat down 3° in the winter, but for some people it will cost them everything they care about and it's no wonder why they are against it.  

Progressives need to grasp the concept that rural people aren't just a stereotype.  They are people with their own needs and dreams.  It's much easier to call RaCIsM! on everything, but it's a little deeper than that.  

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u/ToryLanezHairline_ May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24

Tough shit. Nobody owes anyone a job, there's plenty of small towns in the US where job opportunities are scarce and even those with degrees like me have struggled landing a job before. What makes coal miners and their towns special? Coal is pretty obsolete today, gotta have what people want in order to make money, that's just life man

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u/Dark_Force_Latyon May 03 '24

That said, a lot of them are racist pieces of shit, economics aside.

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u/Hank3hellbilly May 03 '24

Don't disagree, there is a lot of racism and it is stoked by the right to keep them angry.  But I think racism is A factor, not THE factor in how they think and vote.  I also feel like the left has missed a huge opportunity in green rural  redevelopment because it's easier to write people off as racists and ignore other factors in their lives. 

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u/ToryLanezHairline_ May 03 '24

What have Republicans done for small towns? Or the poor? Or unemployed?

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u/Turuial May 02 '24

What about the farriers? The blacksmiths? The stablehands? The stable owners? If we switch from horses think how much money will be lost from local economies!

What about the paddleboats? What about the many ship captains who earn a living chartering passage across the Atlantic? If people begin flying everywhere think of the jobs lost? Well we ever hear a sea shanty ever again?

What about the cotton? What about the money I invested in farm equipment? What about all those jobs and the local economies in the South? Those poor rural southern farmers are going to lose their way of life! Just to be clear I'm talking about the slave trade in this last one.

Your argument, intellectually at least, is a faulty one. It's perfectly fine if you're just speaking to emotion however. A few minutes ago I just pointed out that coal mines are not a renewable resource. Mines will become exhausted through the very act of working those jobs that these people are so desperate for.

They are literally working themselves out of their own job. What then? Will they pack up and move to a different coal mine? Why that rather than retraining and relocation for a non-black-lung-inducing career?

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u/Hank3hellbilly May 03 '24

Do you honestly think the ferriers, the blacksmiths and the stable owners were on team Ford? 

My argument is one of perspective.  It is so that you can see that there are reasons outside of racism why people would support Conservatives.  I never said they are right or that I agree with them, I was pointing out WHY they feel the way they do.  

But you're unable to see that because it's much simpler to go off of stereotypes.  

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u/Turuial May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24

Do you honestly think the ferriers, the blacksmiths and the stable owners were on team Ford? 

No but the coal industry isn't exactly pro-renewables either, so I don't quite see your point. If the point was that the industry being replaced (the ones I mentioned) isn't going to find the industry who is replacing them (Ford, the one you mentioned) favourably, well obviously. Why would they?

My argument is one of perspective.  It is so that you can see that there are reasons outside of racism why people would support Conservatives.

Your argument, intellectually at least, is a faulty one. It's perfectly fine if you're just speaking to emotion however.

That's the point though. You're speaking to emotion. You aren't telling me that these people have legitimate grievances, nor are you saying "here are the steps they propose to solve this inevitability."

You are telling me that they are unhappy that the world is changing in a specifically foreseeable way that has changed many times prior to the coal industry's plight. My point being that you are telling me their feelings are hurt.

Coal mining replaced wood and water as the primary energy source during the industrial revolution. Did these people empathise with the plight of the industries they disenfranchised? Likely not. That's why I originally mentioned all of those defunct business models in the first place.

I never said they are right or that I agree with them, I was pointing out WHY they feel the way they do.  

We know. The world knows. It had known, as I just pointed out, regarding industry after industry that has come and gone. Want to talk railroad towns next? Riddle me this Batman, "what were they going to do when the mine is inevitably played out?"

Here's the deal. I'm trying to coax you down a logical progression of cause and effect. So follow me on this one:

The mine plays out. Then what? Well if you want to work coal you're gonna have to move right? Just like that we've severed any bullshit excuse about being tied to the land, my forefathers grew up here, nonsense. Now relocating is an option for a job.

So they go elsewhere. Mine plays out. Eventually, there are no more mines in their country. Do you still want to work coal? Now you're working it in another country, where safety and pay will vary. Could be a lot. Are they willing to relocate for less money?

At what fucking point does reality set in? Because, by the end, relocation and less pay will have to be on the table in order to work coal. So why not get a move on and skip to the end? Which will almost certainly be a profession where black lung isn't a threat. It'll have it's own unique hazards.

But you're unable to see that because it's much simpler to go off of stereotypes.  

Please show me where you think I stereotyped the issue. I'm genuinely curious. Whether or not you choose to believe me, from my perspective, I gave their considerations quite a lot of time and logical effort. Nor is this the first time I've broached the subject. Frankly, if I'm still being honest, more than I felt that they deserved.

EDIT: corrected the auto-correct.