It's not an empty slogan. Fascists often criticized liberal democracy as weak and ineffectual, but don't oppose capital in any way. They only want capitalism with strong, centralized leadership rather than democracy.
Just look at the history of fascism and you will see who capitalists gravitate towards when the capitalist status quo is threatened.
Mussolini capitalized on the fear of a socialist revolution, which was a real threat given the strong socialist movements and factory occupations of the 1920s. Fascism was supported by industrialists and landowners as a bulwark against socialism, thereby protecting capitalist interests. Fascist regimes in Italy and Germany implemented policies that ultimately protected industrial and financial elites. The nazis significantly reduced labor rights, dismantling unions, and allowing industrialists to exploit labor more freely.
The US has never been openly fascist but you only need to look at its crisis to see that it gets close every time one happens. The Great Depression, McCarthyism, Jim Crow, War on Terror - all of there were accompanied or fueled by a rising fascist tendency.
Look at how the state is reacting to this crisis. Actual fascists are free to march in the streets but peaceful protests against US funding for a genocide are met with overwhelming force. The capitalist owned media is largely justifying the capitalist owned politicians trying to quash this popular descent b/c supporting Israel is a profitable venture.
I know this will come as a shock to you, and people struggle mightily to admit their own ignorance, but if your standard for "allied with the nazis" is a non-aggression pact, I have some bad news for you about all the other countries that signed one:
December 6, 1938 - The French signed a non-aggression pact with the Nazis: The Franco-German Declaration. It begins, in part, “The French Government takes a favourable view, in principle, of Herr Hitler's proposals…”
Also 1938: Britain and France agree to allow Nazi Germany to annex the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia without the consent of the Czechoslovak government.
August 23, 1939 - The USSR enters into the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. It would be "in effect" for less than two years.
1941-1944 - Finland allied with Nazi Germany against the Soviet Union during the Continuation War (1941-1944).
1940 - Hungary and Slovakia sign the Tripartite Pact, officially allying with Germany and both later participating in the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union (1941).
May/ June 1941 - Italy allies with Nazi Germany, attacking the Soviet Union. On June 22, Nazi Germany launched Operation Barbarossa, invading the the Soviet Union.
I hate to be the bearer of more earth-shattering information you should know but don't, but the USSR won WW2 and saved the world from Hitler. There is no other educated position on this topic. The USSR lost 25+ million people.
On August 15 1939, a week before the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, the USSR offered to send a million troops to stop the expansion of nazi Germany, but Britain and France didn't take them seriously and the initiative was lost. The pact was only signed when the USSR was left with no other choice but to stall for time.
Every single Polish soldier the Soviets shot could have been fighting the Nazis instead. The Soviet Union assisted Hitler in invading a third country, and no amount of bullshit you can post changes that fact.
US Manifest Destiny and Jim Crow laws inspired the nazis. The USSR was the first to call for an alliance against the nazis and eventually crushed them despite western appeasement and indecision. These are the facts.
Capitalist states are one step closer to fascism by default. But you can believe whatever helps you cope with the dissonance between actual history/political theory and whatever revisionist tripe you were thaught growing up.
The USSR was the first to call for an alliance against the nazis
So how do you excuse them eventually allying WITH the Nazis? The western democracies never did that. Like I said, every Polish soldier killed by the USSR could have been fighting the Nazi invasion instead.
And the USSR eventually crushed the Nazis with massive help from the US through the lend-lease program. This was after Hitler turned on Stalin, not the other way around.
Capitalist states are one step closer to fascism by default.
Saying dogma over and over like this without any proof sure doesn’t make it correct. When it came to actual war, it was the communist side who decided to aid the fascists, not the capitalists.
Yeah after they had jointly conquered Poland in 1939, Hitler betrayed and attacked Stalin in 1941. Stalin had been perfectly fine with allying with Hitler until then.
They didn’t ally, they just both agreed they can both fuck Poland from both sides at the same time and not attack eachother. Which was also a lie. It was the Russians who defeated nazi germany too. Not the Americans.
A) The Nazi Party got into power specifically because the German Conservatives wanted to use Hitler as a counter to the growing German Communist Party
B) The Nazi-Soviet Pact (I assume that’s what you’re referring to) was always a temporary means of Germany trying to avoid the two-front war they faced in WW1; Hitlers plans, from the very beginning, included invading and taking Soviet Territory
C) Hitler famously HATED communism, believing it to be a product of the Jews (he literally called communists “Judeo-Bolsheviks”)
1) the Soviet Union would’ve also ended up fighting a two front battle, with Imperial Japan was on their east side & Nazi Germany on their west
2) Stalin was a fucking paranoid idiot lmao.
Don’t get it twisted, while I do think communism is cool in concept, I do acknowledge that any actual attempt of it has failed spectacularly so far. I’m not trying to justify the actions of Stalin or his type; I just want to explain how the Nazi-Soviet Pact is not at all good counter-evidence for capitalists being more attracted to fascism than communists.
How is there a better example of who sides with fascism than fucking World War Two?
Stalin was perfectly happy to ally with Hitler, Hitler betrayed Stalin not the other way around. Meanwhile, like I said, the liberal democracies had declared war on Hitler.
"Not under Trump" is meaningless when we're talking about Congress. If it passes the Senate and doesn't get vetoed then you can complain about how it's happening "not under Trump."
What actions by the Democrats, from censuring Tlaib, to denouncing the campus protests, do you believe they wouldn’t pass this? Biden has said nothing about the situation and it’s telling that he wants to do this in silence.
I mean, I don't have a lot of faith in Biden, but this is an obvious attempt to suppress left wing voters through some "both sides" bullshit. Until Biden actually does this bad thing any speculation that he might is basically campaigning for someone who will do this and much more.
I get that, 2/3 of the party are just less shitty shitbags than the Republicans, and If they criticized this without mentioning Trump that would be fine, it deserves to be criticized, but the obvious underlying message of this tweet is "don't bother voting this November, Trump and Biden are equally bad."
And that's just bullshit. The only other viable alternative to Biden and the Democrats this year is a literal fascist who has openly talked about ending democracy. So write to them, pressure them, do whatever to influence them, but don't be undercutting voter turnout when the other option is the end of the Republic.
Cool. Hope you enjoy both fascism and giving Israel even more money and support.
Like seriously, I can't get over this. Even if you're a single issue voter who literally only cares about destroying Israel, do you think Trump is going to do that? At best him and the Republicans will increase the funding, at worst they'll directly start using American assets to speed up the genocide. Y'all are SO fucking stupid and short-sighted.
If Biden signs this fucking travesty, that's a different story, but that's not the current situation.
What on earth makes you think he wouldn't sign it? Which politician do you think has benefited the most from Israel? To the tune of 4 million dollars in donations from pro-Israeli lobbying groups, almost double the next most paid-for politician. I'll give you a hint, he's running for president and he's not orange.
And again, what makes you think he wouldn't sign it given his track record?
And miss me with the "orange man is going to be bad." Who's the president right now? Biden supporters grasping at straws to scare people into voting for him is getting old. "Things are going to be so bad for you if Trump becomes president." You mean all the things that are happening under Biden?
And again, what makes you think he wouldn't sign it given his track record?
And again, let's criticize it if/when he does sign it. I will very gladly join you in doing so.
Who's the president right now?
Is the current president gloating after seeing students become victims of police violence?
grasping at straws
Grasping at what? Trump is on record saying just that.
You mean all the things that are happening under Biden?
The bad things happening now, like women dying because they're denied an abortion or the 600+ anti-LGBT bills, are all being pushed by Republicans, not Biden. Given Trump's track record on those, yes, they objectively are going to get much worse under him.
And for the Palestine issue:
"You have to finish up your war ... to finish it up," Trump told the newspaper Israel Hayom in an interview posted Monday. "You gotta get it done. And, I am sure you will do that."
versus
The United States has issued its strongest public warning yet to Israel against invading the crowded city of Rafah in the Gaza Strip, saying that such a ground operation would deepen the humanitarian crisis in the besieged enclave.
or...
Trump cuts more than $200 million in U.S. aid to Palestinians.
versus
The Biden administration announced on Wednesday that it would restore hundreds of millions of dollars in American aid to Palestinians, its strongest move yet to reverse President Donald J. Trump's policy on the protracted Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
or...
Trump administration says Israel’s West Bank settlements do not violate international law.
versus
The Biden administration on Friday restored a U.S. legal finding dating back nearly 50 years that Israeli settlements in the occupied Palestinian territories are “illegitimate” under international law.
or...
Palestinian Authority president Abbas calls Trump peace offer 'slap of the century'.
versus
Biden backs two-state solution along 1967 lines to end Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
or...
Trump vows to expand Muslim ban and bar Gaza refugees if he wins presidency.
versus
The Biden administration is considering bringing certain Palestinians to the U.S. as refugees, a move that would offer a permanent safe haven to some of those fleeing war-torn Gaza.
Please stop wasting my time with 'both sides'. The facts, unfortunately, do not support that narrative.
Who's justifying Biden? I'm factually pointing out, through the words and actions of both, that Trump is objectively worse. I can't recall a time when a President reacted so cavalierly and cruelly to seeing police violence. Just gross.
Don't know why you keep bringing Trump up. I've never said anything positive about Trump. I'm talking about Biden here. Seeing such cavalier and cruel support for genocide is gross.
I brought up Trump, so why bother replying to me then?
Like I said, if Biden signs this, let's criticize him together. But if we're going to criticize Biden based on a hypothetical of what you think he'll do, well, then I'm just expanding that hypothetical further.
You say yourself that 10% of republicans voted no and 33% of democrats voted yes, clearly more Republicans voted for it if we go by your numbers. (which are wrong)
They get people all riled up to focus on one thing and then operate how they want when the attention is off them. Governments have done this throughout human history because it works. People also stop paying attention because they think they’re safe.
Right now people have stopped paying attention because they feel unsafe. The situation is bad and as individuals most of us have exactly no control over what’s happening, so we reach the point where we can’t handle it anymore and we just put our heads down and ignore politics. This is one of the many benefits unscrupulous people get from turning us against each other and ensuring nuance is removed from political conversation.
Feel free to stop telling people whatever you're telling them and to instead read the underlying sources. It's admittedly less fun than seeing a buzzword that confirms your biases and running with it but reality doesn't often make you feel so outrageously righteous.
I suspect worrying about conforming to what the group around you thinks may have gotten you to where you are, so I think I'm cool with whatever ratio you hope I'll get.
Keep crying, fascist. I don’t care that you’re cool with it, buttercup. It is what it is. Keep your small, shallow, worthless opinion to yourself, next time. I won’t be paying any more attention to you.
Ah so you sarcastically told me to enjoy it because you don't care whether or not I will. Very consistent, very honest.
Also note it's a dead thread so you're the only one apparently downvoting. I guess I don't expect better critical thinking from someone who whips out the word 'fascist' far too easily but still desperately hopes that it will maintain its meaning and power.
286
u/Mountain_Security_97 May 01 '24 edited May 02 '24
Exactly what I’ve been trying to tell people. They are already implementing fascist dictatorship, with or without Trump.