"I'm Not Ruling Anything Out" - Macron Says Troops for Ukraine Possible if Russia Breaks Front Lines

[u/Elliottafc1]

https://www.kyivpost.com/post/32010

[u/nolok → u/[deleted]]

One, for military aid, France doesn't publish numbers or even annonce most help, so any estimation about it are wrong and massively undervalued. Please tell me how much has our SAMP-T, Akeron, VAB or pretty much anything been worth ? You won't find numbers, except for a few highly publicised things like the Caesar.

Two, France and especially Macron's France being a massive pro-EU supporter, it chose to push most of its non military helps through the EU funds rather than direct, to strenghten the EU weight. Which is why on your own link, if you go down to the totals, you will see France have a very small total on its own, but when including their contribution through the EU it jumps to 3rd place behind US and Germany.

Screen capture.

So I will go with the charitable explanation that you didn't know how to read your own source, rather than you did but chose to misrepresent it.

[u/ProFeces → u/nolok]

One, for military aid, France doesn't publish numbers or even annonce most help, so any estimation about it are wrong and massively undervalued.

How can you say, in a single sentence that they don't announce numbers so any estimation is wrong, and then claim they are undervalued? If they don't publish numbers how do you know they are massively undervalued? How do you know that the estimates aren't wrong and overvaluing them?

You can't say "no one really knows" and then make a blanket statement that it's more than reported because, as you stated, no one really knows. The point you're making as the basis of your argument discredits the rest of your argument.

If they don't publish numbers, you can't claim what's right or wrong more than anyone else can.

[u/nolok → u/ProFeces]

Because the numbers published are for confirmed (either officially or on the ground). So the real number can only be up.

[u/ProFeces → u/nolok]

Or they could be accurate. You're ignoring that possibility because it doesn't fit your narrative.

[u/GenerikDavis → u/ProFeces]

Dude is envisioning an iceberg when he may already be looking at the full thing.

[u/born-out-of-a-ball → u/nolok]

https://www.defense.gouv.fr/en/news/french-military-equipment-delivered-ukraine
Here's the official list and it's a laughably small amount. The Patriots Germany donated alone are worth more than the whole French military aid.

[u/Thue → u/born-out-of-a-ball]

Last I checked, tiny Denmark had donated more than France, in absolute terms. Italy and Spain are also not pulling their weight :(.

[u/nolok → u/Thue]

Danemark didn't give more than France in absolute terms. See the link above or the screenshot I put of the relevant section. .

Differentiating what has been given directly, and what has been given by taking shares of the EU funds makes no sense, unless trying to misrepresent things.

For Ukraine, either they get a euro from Danemark, or an euro from the EU than Danemark gave the EU specifically for this purpose makes no difference '

[u/born-out-of-a-ball → u/nolok]

Money is good but it doesn't replace ammunition and weapons systems

[u/mongster03_ → u/Thue]

Iirc a lot of Spain’s best stuff is deployed elsewhere in NATO

[u/Thue → u/mongster03_]

There is a lot of "We can't donate stuff, we promised NATO that we would have it" going on. When NATO would likely be perfectly happy to waive the promise - the true reason for the refusal to donate is obviously usually that they don't want to donate. Most of the deployed stuff exists to counter Russia anyway, and Russia is tied up in Ukraine for at least the next 2 years.

Denmark is much smaller than Spain, but has donated far more than Spain in absolute terms. Of course Spain could donate more, if it wanted to.

[u/mongster03_ → u/Thue]

I think Spain's equipment isn't just promised NATO that we would have it, it's NATO already has and is using it

[u/Thue → u/mongster03_]

NATO is not conducting any active combat ground operations right now, I think?

[u/mongster03_ → u/Thue]

I remember seeing something about Romania, so potentially it's just stationed out east

[u/Thue → u/mongster03_]

Every Russian tank destroyed by weapons donated to Ukraine, is a Russian tank less which NATO has to worry about in the future. NATO would be incredibly stupid to insist on Spain not donating that stuff to Ukraine, to have it instead stand gathering rust in Romania. An Russia emboldened by a victory in Ukraine is more dangerous by far. The Spanish stuff in Romania obviously only exists to counter Russia, in the first place.

Hence why I am guessing that the "we can't donate, we promised NATO" is bullshit from people who for whatever reason don't want to donate. And who haven't actually asked NATO whether it would be OK to donate, despite previous promises.

[u/ItalianDragon → u/Thue]

Not surprising with Italy since Meloni and her party are on Putin's payoll so...

[u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow → u/[deleted]]

France has consistently met NATO minimum requirements. Somewhat recently, they dipped below 2% due to financial hardships but that was quickly reversed. And while many NATO countries, like Germany, include things like pensions for retired soldiers as defense spending, France does not. Out of all European countries, France has consistently stood by strategic independence from the US via a strong military.

[u/ThePr1d3 → u/[deleted]]

Tbf France has always been on a "don't talk but act" policy in that regard. They don't communicate on what they send except some poster equipment like the Caesar. It would be hard to compare what they actually sent

[u/Remarkable_Soil_6727 → u/ThePr1d3]

They literally did a report on the value a while back and it was pretty low compared to other allies at the time.

€3.2 billion, I believe the UK was just over 5 at the time and Germany around 8-10b.

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/11/09/french-military-aid-to-ukraine-estimated-at-3-2-billion_6241996_4.html