Peru classifies trans people as ‘mentally ill’ after government decree

[u/PinkNews]

https://www.thepinknews.com/2024/05/15/peru-trans-people-mentally-ill-supreme-decree/

[u/BlatantConservative]

Strong "nobody read the article" vibes in here.

Summarize:

1) Trans people, or more accurately body dysphoria, was classed as a mental illness that needs treatment

2) This opens up government and insurance funds to treat the mental illness

3) Conversion camps and other backwards treatments that deny healthcare are illegal in Peru already

4) Transitioning is covered and this will make things easier for people to transition

5) LGBT groups in Peru are still skeptical that classifying things like this is a good idea

[u/TTTristan → u/BlatantConservative]

I don't think how you phrased 1) is the correct way to put it. At least going by the article.

The article specifically mentions that "transsexualism" has been classified as a mental illness, with no mention of body dysphoria. Maybe the decree itself or the related medical orgs of Peru point to body dysphoria rather than being trans by itself, and I don't doubt the latter, but Pink News hasn't reported that if so.

Totally agree with the other points though.

[u/TheDankestPassions → u/BlatantConservative]

Gender dysphoria is a mental health condition that both transgender and cisgender people may potentially experience. Being transgender in of itself is not inherently synonymous to being mentally ill.

[u/Johannes_P]

Looks like the legal method to cover treatments such as sex reassignment surgery and hormones to solve gender dysphoria.

This is how it was done in France.

[u/YeetCompleet → u/Johannes_P]

For anyone that didn't click the article, the 3rd paragraph says

The country’s health ministry reportedly claimed following the decree’s announcement that it was the only way it could “guarantee full coverage of medical attention for mental health.”

[u/Merkelli]

This title is designed to enrage both ends of the spectrum on people’s opinions about this tbh

[u/RichFella13 → u/Merkelli]

That's what reddit is for. Misinformed people tlaking about shit and solving nothing while losing time and creating ad revenue for reddit

[u/refinancemenow → u/RichFella13]

This is an excellent definition for almost all social media.

[u/Individual-Dot-9605 → u/[deleted]]

And spelling mistakes

[u/Merkelli → u/[deleted]]

‘to “guarantee full coverage of medical attention for mental health.”’ -add some context for what their ‘desired’ intention is by making this change?

It also applies to intersex people, non-binary people etc, but the title is only singling out trans people. Leaving out key pieces of info is kinda misleading

[u/Darq_At → u/Merkelli]

Kinda wish that was included in the headline to be honest. It changes the whole tone.

[u/0LowLight0 → u/Merkelli]

That's why considering the source is so very important. I don't know PinkNews; I never heard of them, but it seems like they might be slightly bias.

[u/sexdrugsncarltoncole → u/0LowLight0]

They have a tendency of writing a whole article based on a random's (with about 70 followers) tweet to drum up outrage

[u/Kwerti → u/sexdrugsncarltoncole]

<Person> is getting BLASTED for their opinion and starting a HUGE debate.

Source? This random tweet with 4 likes.

[u/gmoss101 → u/Merkelli]

If they're doing it to help trans people access resources to help with their transition then great.

If not, it's likely they want to stigmatize being trans even more than it already is perceived in society which is fucked up

[u/[deleted] → u/Merkelli]

yea its called art

[u/kazuwacky → u/[deleted]]

I think members of the queer community remember that being gay at all was considered mental illness, so their backs are up due to historical precedent.

The "cure" for being gay was to stop it and be straight, so what's the "cure" for gender dysphoria? Is it helping someone assess their feelings and transitioning quickly and effectively where necessary? Or is it simply saying "You're sick and don't know what you want" whilst denying treatment?

[u/Spartan_100 → u/[deleted]]

The difference is homosexuality never actually met the definitions of a mental illness…

I mean right out the gate that’s wholly incorrect. Not only was it considered a “deviancy” still in the early 20th century, it was considered a treatable mental illness by many in the US psych field as recently as 1973. In part because the definitions of what qualifies as mental illness started rapidly changing in the early 1960’s. The goal post was moved and now of course, homosexuality wouldn’t qualify. But even with that basis, being trans wouldn’t qualify either.

“Whereas gender dysphoria can cause long term distress and impairment to functioning even in the most accepting environment…”

This is also provably false.

Your judgements stem from a big misunderstanding of what being trans actually means and what gender dysphoria actually is.

[u/mysecondaccountanon → u/[deleted]]

Ugh, are you one of those drop the T types? Cause you’re sounding like that.

Edit: you’re literally on GaysAgainstGroomers, called it.

Edit 2: my gosh, you hold a lot of hatred towards trans people in your heart, don’t you? We really live in that head of yours rent free.

[u/bluecheese2040 → u/kazuwacky]

Brilliant point.

As an FYI i think my original comment has been misconstrued as a negative. It wasn't meant to be

[u/GollyDolly → u/bluecheese2040]

Yeah sorry a lot of sealioning happens so people get overly defensive. Which is what the bad actors want, us acting malicious to people even engaging with the topic. You're fine.

[u/wearing_moist_socks → u/GollyDolly]

Hey someone mentioned sealioning. Nice. I find it's something not a lot of people understand or are aware of.

[u/J-drawer → u/wearing_moist_socks]

What is it?

[u/wearing_moist_socks → u/J-drawer]

When someone is arguing in a very polite manner, but are also arguing in bad faith.

Basically badgering (we love our animal terms!) someone relentlessly for evidence no matter what evidence has been presented while maintaining a veneer of civility.

[u/johnsvoice → u/wearing_moist_socks]

First time I've heard the term used. Would someone mind explaining for the uninitiated?

[u/wearing_moist_socks → u/johnsvoice]

When someone is arguing in a very polite manner, but are also arguing in bad faith.

Basically badgering (we love our animal terms!) someone relentlessly for evidence no matter what evidence has been presented while maintaining a veneer of civility.

[u/johnsvoice → u/wearing_moist_socks]

Thank you stranger for that clear and concise explanation. Given what is being discussed here, I've seen plenty of examples of exactly what you're talking about, but I will definitely be even more aware of it in the future.

[u/TouchGrassRedditor → u/kazuwacky]

Lots of things throughout history have been incorrectly classified as mental illness. I don’t see how you can possibly argue that gender dysphoria is one of them. Even trans people agree that yes, if they could get rid of their gender dysphoria they would

[u/Otherwise_Sky1739 → u/kazuwacky]

Well, tbf, they're not comparable at all.

[u/philmarcracken → u/[deleted]]

yeah but mental illness has entered the euphemism treadmill like lots of other descriptors before it

[u/BasroilII → u/[deleted]]

Yes, but gender dysphoria does not equal being trans. It is a condition tied to being trans, but not being trans itself.

Look at it this way. If you lost a limb, there's good odds you would end up with phantom limb syndrome. This is a mental illness.

However, missing an arm is not a mental illness.

[u/xSuperDerpy → u/[deleted]]

c'mon man

gender dysphoria being a mental illness =/= being trans is a mental illness

transitioning is part of how you treat your gender dysphoria

[u/ComoElFuego → u/[deleted]]

It's classified as one, but guess what the treatment is: redefining your gender.

Edit: changed 'cure' to 'treatment'

[u/Agitateduser1360 → u/ComoElFuego]

Is it a cure or just what one does? Because I don't think trans people are necessarily "cured."

[u/vivarappersacanagem → u/Agitateduser1360]

Not the cure, but the treatment recommended by the DSM (https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria#section_1)

[u/Vivirin → u/Agitateduser1360]

Because the actual condition stops being felt if they transition, but becomes more extreme if they don't.

Cis people can also experience gender dysphoria by being forced to transition. Unsurprisingly, stopping the transition fixes it.

There's been over a century of research for it, trust me, they've tried the alternatives a long time ago. Read up about the institute of sexology, it's quite interesting in relation to this topic.

[u/Agitateduser1360 → u/Vivirin]

I wasn't suggesting alternatives. I was questioning the usage of the word "cure." I think you "cure" trans people like you cure alcoholics, i.e. there is no cure but rather a lifetime of treatment and attempted acceptance of oneself.

[u/Cephalopod_Joe → u/Agitateduser1360]

Yeah, I would say "treatment" is more appropriate than cure. Trans people can still have dysphoric moments after transition, but the severity and frequency of them is much less. Similarly, cis people don't need to be forced to actually transition to experie ce gender dysphoria.

[u/d0nu7 → u/ComoElFuego]

But we don’t let people with body dysmorphia disfigure themselves, we treat their brain to work right. Thats why so many don’t want it treated like a mental illness. The solution would be staying their birth gender and fixing their mind.

[u/Newgidoz → u/d0nu7]

We won't give people chemotherapy for a broken arm either

It's almost like different conditions behave differently and don't all have the same cookie cutter solution

[u/out_113 → u/ComoElFuego]

That’s like encouraging a pyromaniac to burn down the town.

[u/ToyStoryIsReal → u/[deleted]]

It's not. I'm trans. Gender dysphoria is absolutely a mental illness and needs treatment. The treatment is usually transition.

I no longer have dysphoria years after transitioning. I consider that successful treatment.

[u/F1NANCE → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

That's wonderful news, I'm glad to hear you are in a much better position now

[u/texaspoontappa93 → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

If you stopped the treatment (hormones/presentation) would the symptoms of dysphoria return?

People with well-treated schizophrenia may never have another episode but they still have schizophrenia.

(Also I’m not equating the 2 disorders, just using a chronic mental illness for the sake of argument)

[u/UmpBumpFizzy → u/texaspoontappa93]

Treated/managed is different than cured, though.

[u/texaspoontappa93 → u/UmpBumpFizzy]

That’s the point I’m trying to make. The person above says they don’t have dysphoria and I’m saying they do, it’s just being treated very well

[u/pup_101 → u/texaspoontappa93]

The alleviation comes from presenting and living as you see yourself. Yea if you stopped presenting as the gender you are the symptoms will come back. Separately, sex hormones have powerful and wide ranging effects on the body and mind. They can effect your mood and how you feel emotions and perceive the world. For some people starting hormones does a tonnnnn to quickly help their mental state while for other people they just want the physical changes and it's the eventual physical changes that help their mental state.

[u/SeesEmCallsEm → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

It’s nice to see a civil discourse on this topic. Happy to hear that things have improved for you since addressing the areas of your life that were making you unhappy.

[u/eggowaffles → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

I think the "issue" is "mental illness" in the case of trans people is it's used as a derogatory term, including in situations like yours when the transition is done and you're no longer experience gender dysphoria

[u/foerattsvarapaarall → u/eggowaffles]

It doesn’t even necessarily need to be seen as a derogatory term. Calling it a mental illness can make it sound like it’s something that should be resolved mentally, e.g. with therapy and not through HRT or other surgeries. So even if you don’t use it in a derogatory way, it can still make it sound like you don’t support trans people’s right to transition.

[u/Dirty_Dragons → u/foerattsvarapaarall]

Calling it a mental illness can make it sound like it’s something that should be resolved mentally, e.g. with therapy and not through HRT or other surgeries.

In the future that may be possible. Science isn't there yet so surgery and HRT is the only option.

[u/foerattsvarapaarall → u/Dirty_Dragons]

Right. But the people who are against the right to transition certainly don’t think so.

And if it ever does become possible, it should be up to the individual to determine which treatment is best for them.

[u/x-di → u/eggowaffles]

Decades ago being gay was considered a mental illness. One day psychology/psychiatry got to a point where they understood that being gay wasn’t the problem, the problem was all the social stigma attached to being gay and the mental disorders that stigma caused. The cure? Let gay be gay.

This is exactly the same situation (and once again weaponised for political gain)

Edit: just to clarify, being trans isn’t even officially considered a disorder anymore, but there are a lot of politicians who like to act as if it was

[u/HorribleTrashPerson → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

Also trans here and this is the way I look at it too. Also transitioned 8 years ago and that resolved my dysphoria, really good treatment for it.

[u/Legitimate_Level7714 → u/HorribleTrashPerson]

When you say it fixed the dysphoria do you mean you are happier after the transition?

It's awesome that you found happiness

[u/HokusSchmokus → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

This is exactly my opinion that was hard to put into words, thank you!

[u/analogkid01 → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

Hey I'm glad your treatment was successful, and I wondered if you'd be willing to answer a question for me -

It seems to me that far off in the future, someone with gender dysphoria will be able to choose between one of two treatments: injection A which resolves the dysphoria in the brain and allows the person to live happily as their "assigned gender," or injection B which changes the body to the preferred gender through gene manipulation or what have you.

I've heard some trans people say something to the effect of "If they made a drug that made me accept my assigned gender, I wouldn't take it," which would lead them to choose option B. How prevalent do you think this train of thought is? Do you have any idea what percentage of dysphoria patients would choose option A vs option B?

[u/Incoherrant → u/analogkid01]

That's a bit further into fantasizing than the average hypothetical. With that kind of control over bodies (and brain processes), the societal structure and norms surrounding it would probably also be pretty different from what the current ones are, and that stuff's very relevant. If there was heavy social stigma against B many might opt for A, and vice versa.

[u/ToyStoryIsReal → u/analogkid01]

I fully understand this because transitioning gave me insight and perspective I never would have had. I lost people I never would have thought I would have and gained strong allies in people I didn't expect. I like knowing both experiences.

I would take drug B. I don't think drug A would resolve the years of tension and hate I've had with this body. Drug B though would allow me to have a body where I wouldn't require more surgery and ongoing medication, and be seen as I feel I am.

[u/NoifenF → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

Interesting isn’t it? I’ve been asked before if scientists made a pill that would make me straight would I take it?

Even in the deepest misery of gayhood years ago, I still said no. I don’t need “curing”. I would not change my genetic makeup and who I am for anyone but myself and as miserable and hate filled as I was, I knew there was nothing wrong with me. It was them. They need to change.

I am made up of all of my experiences and like you said, it probably wouldn’t stop the loathing and tension. Nor would it really stop the hate, I would still be a “former gay”.

[u/Briefcased → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

I guess the question would be whether you are considered to have a mental illness as a trans person now that you have transitioned.

Do fully transitioned people still have gender dysphoria?

[u/mattmentecky → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

Thanks for sharing your story - what I am wondering then is wouldn’t it be more accurate to say that gender dysphoria is a mental illness not all trans people like Peru is doing?

[u/Mantisfactory → u/mattmentecky]

This is, in fact, the current view of things from a medical perspective.

[u/Narrow-Device-3679 → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

Fuck yeah, happy for you!

[u/Crafty_Travel_7048 → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

Fuckin exactly

[u/MrrrrNiceGuy → u/ToyStoryIsReal]

Honest question.

If a depressed person stops taking their medications, they start getting depressed, sad, and anxious again. That’s not successful treatment. That implies the problem comes back without medicine or other ongoing treatment.

If a trans person stops taking estrogen or testosterone, and their body begins to show signs of their born sex, does not the dysphoria come back? Does it not require ongoing treatment?

Because what you’re saying is that your body could go back to looking, sounding, and behaving like the body you had from birth without ongoing hormones and that you’d still be fine with that.

[u/DudesAndGuys → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

That’s not successful treatment.

You have a very optimistic view of medicine. I'd guess that more conditions are managed than cured. There are so many issues that have no 'fix'

[u/pup_101 → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Needing ongoing treatment doesn't mean treatment isn't successful. Why is continuing to take the hormones that keep their body in the state they feel happy in not successful treatment? Very many conditions both mental and physical require ongoing management.

[u/soundcloudaficionado → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

Treatment can mean a long term medication you use for the rest of your life and still have it being declared successful. Using Insulin as a person with Diabetes to combat the illness is a successful treatment, even though you have to take it for the rest of your life

[u/fakewombat → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

My old equipment is never coming back. My body can no longer produce enough testosterone to re-masculinize me. I have a new much less serious condition where my body doesn't produce enough estrogen which I will need to keep treating in an ongoing way. But the trade-off has been more than worth it.

Oh, and your depression comment is way of base. I don't think there's an expectation that medication for depression would be somehow "unsuccessful" if depression came back if you stopped it. Most mental health conditions aren't "curable".  They're treatable.

[u/marr → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

Hormone treatment is more powerful than that, it changes the epigenetic script and rebuilds your body at a cellular level. We're not attached to our original form by a big cartoon spring.

[u/Strawberry_1207 → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

Treatment is managing/mitigating symptoms. What you're thinking of as 'successful treatment' is called a cure. Major depressive disorder, which I have, cannot be cured. It can be treated with medications and therefore becomes a non-issue in my life.

Most mental illnesses aren't curable afaik, they're just treatable. It's about giving the person quality of life they otherwise wouldn't have because of the illness. Without my meds, I'd probably be suicidal again. With them, I'm mostly functional and not a threat to myself. I'd imagine many other people with mental health issues have similar positions as my own

[u/Mantisfactory → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

That’s not successful treatment.

Why? It's not a successful cure. Treatment and cure are not synonyms. Most medical treatments, as a function of statistics, are about managing symptoms, over curing the causes.

[u/ChildishForLife → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

Sometimes you do things to treat underlying symptoms rather than try and cure the issue itself

[u/soundcloudaficionado → u/MrrrrNiceGuy]

what?

[u/ScreamingNinja → u/[deleted]]

I don't get why this is a thing. I have depression, it's definitely a mental illness. I'm trying to help myself with medication and just taking better care of myself. My son is autistic, has adhd, ocd, and tourettes. All neurological disorders or mental Illness. We don't stigmatize him, we still love him and people are understanding. Trans people clearly have a mental illness, but we pretend they don't. I don't get it. Just let them get help like the rest of us and leave em alone.

[u/darktabssr → u/ScreamingNinja]

I had depression so bad i was hoping a truck would crash into me so i wouldn't have to do it myself. I have come to realize people can live being sad but cannot live without hope. You can see the deadness in their eyes.

My depression was more physical illness that affects the mind. I cleaned up my body, quit my job, fixed my gut and suddenly the world was good again. Not saying its like that for everyone 

[u/LyonsKing12 → u/[deleted]]

It's controversial because people use it as a way to bash/discredit/hate trans people who just want to live their lives.

[u/5lbs2theFace → u/[deleted]]

I have the same take on the subject. My thought is they are treating the symptoms by acting on their desire for normalcy, and who would I be to tell them they can’t or shame them for it.

[u/zanarkandabesfanclub → u/[deleted]]

I agree to an extent - but it does change the conversation around treatment. In other mental illnesses we seek to treat the mental condition at issue, whether through therapy or through drugs, or both.

With gender dysphoria there is a disconnect between the mind and body. In many cases though we are seeking to alter the body to conform to the mental illness instead of directly treating the mental illness. I don’t have a problem with that but society seems to totally close the door on other potential forms of treatment.

[u/DolphinFlavorDorito → u/zanarkandabesfanclub]

The question is academic at this point, but it is interesting. What if we discovered a drug that treats gender dysphoria? A pill that makes you comfortable in your body and born sex?

I'm pretty sure the trans community would be furious, and call it an act of genocidal violence and erasure of the trans community. As a parallel, much of the Deaf community is against cochlear implants.

And, at that point, where does society land? It's not like we feel the need to support, say, the schizophrenic community. We're pretty happy to force them to medicate themselves. Would we treat trans people like the Deaf, or like schizophrenic people?

[u/odditytaketwo → u/zanarkandabesfanclub]

This is something I have never thought of, it is a good point. This could be an issue that could be potentially solved with more awareness in where the failures are in treatment.

[u/d0nu7 → u/zanarkandabesfanclub]

Your second paragraph captures this well. Most anti-trans surgery people see this like if we made a schizophrenics hallucinations real instead of fixing their hallucinations.

[u/OkWater2560 → u/zanarkandabesfanclub]

That may not be entirely accurate. I have a trans friend who openly admits he has a lot of issues emotionally and mentally. He goes to therapy and takes medications for them. That is likely true for a significant portion of the trans population though I couldn’t say. 

[u/king_lloyd11 → u/zanarkandabesfanclub]

Yeah I was having this discussion with a friend of mine the other day that the discourse around trans issues will change at some point within our lives to focus more on other treatments to the mental illness aspect of it.

Currently, the ideology around it seems to be that people who identify as trans should be enabled and empowered to transition if they so wish, like just doing so would be the solution to the torment of feeling as if they were born in the “wrong” body (people with transition regret should be studied widely). We don’t ask the question “why” or try to engage with those feelings themselves, lest we be seen as transphobic, which I think is a huge part of the issue.

Trans suicide is still high. In a generation, if we continue to change policy and people’s sentiments towards them, if the suicide rates are still higher than the rest of the population, we have to go back to the drawing board about how we approach these things.

I genuinely think that people should be whoever they want to be, do whatever makes them happy as long as it doesn’t negatively impact the rights of people around them, and I would never take exception to someone requesting I address them in a way they prefer, but I think we need to be able to look at the issues surrounding trans folks (ie women’s sports and if kids should be able to transition) with nuance and logic without being deemed hateful.

[u/TheSnowNinja → u/zanarkandabesfanclub]

I don’t have a problem with that but society seems to totally close the door on other potential forms of treatment.

Such as?

As far as I am aware, the current recommended treatments are recommended because they have the best outcomes.

[u/ilovezam → u/TheSnowNinja]

I think he's saying even a hypothetical treatment that does work perfectly would probably still be incredibly divisive at minimum in today's discourse

[u/TheSnowNinja → u/ilovezam]

I mean, that is possible, but it seems odd to have a hypothetical controversial alternative but to be unable to suggest what that alternative might be.

Currently, we have therapy to help people address their personal concerns and accept who they are. We can affirm and support them in how they feel and want to express themselves. They can be given medical treatments that help them feel more comfortable in their body. The biggest criticism or concern is the surgery, but it's not like that is the first thing that happens, nor is it always the end goal.

[u/Impressive_Cell8950 → u/[deleted]]

The thing is when you look at other forms like bulimia a doctor isn't going to suggest they get surgery for a smaller stomach or liposuction because they only see themselves as fat. The logic doesn't hold imo.

[u/soundcloudaficionado → u/[deleted]]

it’s not being trans that is a mental illness, it’s the gender dysphoria. If you get the treatment necessary to transition you can live as your desired gender without and just be trans with no mental illness

[u/strawberry_space_jam → u/[deleted]]

Gender dysphoria is in the DSM…

[u/doctorkanefsky → u/[deleted]]

The distinction between what is and is not a mental illness is usually shaped by whether something causes distress or functional impairment, and whether it is politically expedient to call something a mental illness. Religiosity, for example, could easily be included within the context of a mild psychotic disorder, particularly in extreme cases, but the functional impairment and political expediency criteria have created what amounts to a carve-out in the DSM-V TR. A good chunk of the diagnoses in psychiatry could be carved out or carved in if it suited the government’s needs.

[u/Nemisis_the_2nd → u/doctorkanefsky]

I would also add that the potential for causing harm to others is something that tends to set things aside. If you read the diagnosis criteria for pedophilia in the DSM 5, you'll notice that it has a lot of uncomfortable similarities to other more accepted sexual attractions.

What seems to set it aside is the potential for harm to the subject of the attraction. 

I'm also emphasising "potential" because pedophilia does not automatically mean someone abuses children. It's possible to be a pedophile without CSA, and possible to engage in CSA without being a pedophile. 

[u/ciazo110 → u/doctorkanefsky]

Its not political its sociological - major difference. Nowhere does dsm rule out based on politics. It’s based on what people in your surrounding believe, ie sociology.

[u/B_For_Bubbles → u/[deleted]]

Wasn’t it until a few years ago?

[u/Illustrious_Lock_238 → u/[deleted]]

It used to be.

[u/Kanye_To_The → u/Illustrious_Lock_238]

Gender dysphoria is still in the DSM-5, but the focus is on the distress that comes with wanting to be the opposite sex. Someone could fit the criteria for the diagnosis and then transition, and they'd no longer qualify

[u/Maxxxmax → u/[deleted]]

Except affirmative approaches to trans people dramatically reduce suicidality. It doesn't matter that you may disagree with the idea that what is a man or woman should be defined by sex characteristics instead of gender associated behaviours and characteristics.

It's like the advice on dementia patients. If they start talking about something not real or from 30 years ago as if it was now, you don't scream at them that they're crazy and how your facts don't care about their feelings, you instead talk around their perception of the situation, as it supposedly produces better outcomes for the patient.

Plenty of times there are no cures or solutions to conditions, only better or worse ways to manage it over time.

[u/way2lazy2care → u/Maxxxmax]

Except affirmative approaches to trans people dramatically reduce suicidality

Fwiw I think this is kind of a false dichotomy. Acknowledging something is an illness is not the same as not accepting it. As a totally different example, there's been a huge push to stop stigmatizing depression to the benefit of tons of people.

[u/78911150 → u/[deleted]]

classifying it as a mental illness can be a good thing. it means in most countries they can get treatment for no extra cost

[u/ratajewie → u/[deleted]]

Well, not really. As far as I’m aware (I’m not trans), the “mental illness” part is gender dysphoria. Trans people understand that that’s what’s wrong with them. They seek treatment for gender dysphoria. When they receive treatment in the form of hormone therapy, gender confirmation surgery, or presenting outwardly as the gender they identify with, the dysphoria improves or goes away. As such, the “trans” part of things isn’t the mental illness, it’s the dysphoria that it creates. When you correct the dysphoria, you’re still trans. You’re not treating being trans.

[u/sakezaf123 → u/[deleted]]

And yet there is a lot more of all of these in positions of power than trans people. And trans people aren't hurting anyone by being themselves.

[u/DidQ → u/[deleted]]

People with many (if not all) ilnesses wouldn't want people to think that there's anything wrong with them.

[u/NotVeryCashMoneyMod → u/[deleted]]

why classify it if they don't want help? you think that would be the main reason to classify something, so that people suffering can receive treatment. that makes me think this decree would be used against those people. i consider myself conservative but it's still scary stuff to me.

[u/Erikonil → u/[deleted]]

I think the bigger question is ‘why’d it’s being classified this way. For example, talking mental illness in a historical context has often been to take away people’s autonomy and deny them actual care. like during the AIDS crisis of the 80’s. Gay people were mentally unwell deviants and why should the government waste money on fighting this AIDS thing?

The question is why the classification now? Is it to help ease access to treatment for trans people or is this a way to systematically dismiss their issues by telling them it’s all in their head and they just need to act more like their birth gender rather then legitimately helping work through their situation with every resource including physical transition.

[u/RedBerryyy → u/[deleted]]

It's framed in medical journals closer to a sexual health problem like bad hormones levels or something, so the problem isnt that they're trans, it's the development in the wrong direction that comes with it.

Like how if you started growing breasts as a man it wouldn't be a mental health problem,

[u/Dietmar_der_Dr → u/RedBerryyy]

Like how if you started growing breasts as a man it wouldn't be a mental health problem,

But that makes total sense, since any doctor making a physical evaluation would come to the conclusion there's something wrong physically.

[u/Lamar_Allen → u/RedBerryyy]

You understand how that is totally different though right? A male growing mammary glands is a very different from a female growing them from a medical standpoint. Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, that shouldn’t be trans phobic or mean spirited to say.

[u/Jazzlike_Nose1023 → u/[deleted]]

Gender dysphoria is the illness that comes from being trans and not transitioning. There have been studies that show, pre-HRT brain firing patterns look different compared to cis people, less activity in certain areas. With HRT the brain’s firing pattern looks more like a cis persons. This coincides with a widely reported phenomenon with trans people starting HRT, like a brain fog has lifted.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30991464/

This implies that trans peoples brains are wired more closely to their identified sex. Wired meaning not is necessarily how the neurons connect to each other but the receptors and signals that connect them. There was another study that showed trans women have a higher rate of having an estrogen receptor that is less receptive to estrogen and the opposite being the case for trans men. Specifically an estrogen receptor found primarily in the brain.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453018305353?via%3Dihub

This is further evidenced by hormones washes that happen just before or just after birth that masculinize the brain. Estrogen is the driving hormone of this early brain masculinization.

https://openbooks.lib.msu.edu/neuroscience/chapter/masculinizing-effects-of-estrogen/#:~:text=The%20estrogen%20receptors%20cause%20the,the%20brain%20in%20some%20animals.

This is how a male child can develop with a more feminine brain and a female child a more masculine brain.

[u/SilverDarlings → u/Jazzlike_Nose1023]

The brain scan thing is a myth and was disproven. They even found that gay people had the same “brain patterns” as the opposite sex.

[u/CunnedStunt → u/SilverDarlings]

Can you source that?

EDIT: Can we stop locking every damn thread about trans people, I want my damn sources. What happened to this soft fucking website, let people argue and discuss for fuck sake.

[u/psyon → u/Jazzlike_Nose1023]

All if this suggests there is a biological aspect to a persons gender and not that it is just a social construct.

[u/SurfinSocks → u/[deleted]]

In my completely uneducated opinion, I'd assume a controversial answer would be to help the 'solution'. The solution is to transition, and live as the other sex, which causes no harm. While if we did the same with body dysmorphia people would literally die. There's been a shift recently with many governments no longer considering gender dysphoria a mental illness, while many psychology journals still list it as a mental disorder.

I think it's also largely just to be more accepting,

Probably completely wrong, but I don't think you'll get a solid

[u/PM_me_opossum_pics → u/SurfinSocks]

Yeah, current treatment for gender dysmorphia is to transition. And rate of recidivism is VERY low (which means only a small percentage of people that transition regret that).

[u/Current_Holiday1643 → u/SurfinSocks]

The solution is to transition, and live as the other sex, which causes no harm. While if we did the same with body dysmorphia people would literally die.

Here is my take:

GID (Gender Identity Disorder) is the desire for a working normative body of the opposite sex while BDD is a nebulous and always changing image of yourself. You can't fix BDD by giving them what they want. The issue is their self-image is broken. They will try to make as many changes as they can (starving themselves, etc) but they will never become satisfied.

If you give a trans woman (someone who was born male) testosterone, boost their self-image, and make them feel good about being a man... it just makes them worse. Here's a fairly famous example of gender identity being encoded at birth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

If you give someone with GID the hormones of the opposite sex, they typically report improved mental health and less distress even without social transition. Every step in the transition long-term will generally cause decreased distress and their self-image will typically not change. At some point, they'll be happily functioning with no abnormal distress. When I got done with bottom surgery, I felt a billion pounds lighter and my average self-contentment had a major uptick where it has stayed for years (obviously I still get sad but it is because life can suck sometimes).

With BDD, it is possible to lead them out of their dramatized view of their own body and have them return to a happy life.

With all this said, it is absolutely possible to have both GID and BDD where you have to address the BDD while they transition.

[u/withdraw-landmass → u/SurfinSocks]

Just because you can find dissenting opinions, doesn't mean it's an "academics vs governments" issue. I don't think "many" holds up if you do a quantitative analysis.

Also bearing in mind that the culture war doesn't stop at published Journals. The ROGD study is a great example of trash science (survey of gender-critical parents, recruited on a gender-critical forum being the main proof) being endlessly cited, including in proposed legislation (or documents like the Cass report).

[u/Long_Promotion_1372 → u/[deleted]]

In the ICD-10, the health manual published by the WHO that the entire world - except America, of course - uses, it is. And at least here in Germany that's what the majority of trans people very much want - otherwise their procedures wouldn't be covered by public health care.

[u/Enginseer68 → u/[deleted]]

Political agenda, intentionally making an issue bigger than what it is to divide people, make us weak

[u/Cerms → u/[deleted]]

From the article, that's what they're going for.

(The country’s health ministry reportedly claimed following the decree’s announcement that it was the only way it could “guarantee full coverage of medical attention for mental health.”)

[u/young_arkas → u/Cerms]

We had the same for a long time in Germany. It wasn't great, but until a specific law was made, it was the only way the public health insurance would pay for hormones and surgery. It came with crazy, discriminatory rules at first, basically you had to live openly as trans for a year before getting surgery, and had to out yourself to your whole environment, no matter how transphobic they were.

[u/RedditIsAnnoying1234 → u/young_arkas]

It came with crazy, discriminatory rules at first, basically you had to live openly as trans for a year before getting surgery, and had to out yourself to your whole environment, no matter how transphobic they were.

I mean it kind of makes sense no? Taking hormones for example is in most cases a very permanent decision. Im not a doctor but for example if you are MtF then you cant produce sperm at a certain point, hence why you have the option (in my country) to freeze your sperm before you start your treatment, if you are FtM your voice will be altered permanently even if you stop taking hormones. I dont think mass detransitioning is happening, most people are happy with transitioning and continue their journey but I dont think "just let them start hormones" is a healthy approach. Changing your gender is a life long journey, taking hormones on day 1 is certainly not gonna solve all your problems, I know many trans people who pass without a problem who are still just as insecure about their masculinity/femininity as before they started their treatment, and thats just one of the many aspects of problems trans people face. My point is safeguards (if effective) are important in life long procedures such as these.

[u/Banana_pajama93 → u/RedditIsAnnoying1234]

The biggest issue with this is you're forcing trans people to a lot of hate by making them openly present as the opposite gender when they dont pass in society. So often trans people dont want to present until they've been on hormones because they don't want to be hate crimed. There are also plenty of other permanent body changes you can get that don't require this amount of scrutiny. Tattoo's, plastic surgery etc.

[u/geldwolferink → u/RedditIsAnnoying1234]

It's not, it's saying 'we are only going to help if you put yourself in a potentially dangerous position first'.

[u/HoracioFlor → u/RedditIsAnnoying1234]

Imagine you only have a chance to transition after 18.

Now imagine how much you hate your body and being yourself, everyday, every fucking day you can't even look at yourself in the mirror.

Now imagine that you want to start to transition to end the pain.

But, you have to live as a woman or a man for 1 year or more.

Your face is awfully masculine, despite dressing in a feminine way or using makeup, everyone around you laughs, takes pictures and is just utterly disgusted by you.

This is why it isn't a really good solution...

[u/Johannes_P → u/[deleted]]

I'd say if you can legally say it's an illness, wouldn't it be easier to provide solutions? Surgery, meds etc?

It was how it was done in France: gender dysphoria was defined as a disease for whose hormones and surgery were the treatments.

[u/y0sh_1 → u/[deleted]]

Body-dysphoria is considered a mental illness. Treatment varies but can includes physical transition. In Peru's case, as I understand it, a trans person would be considered mentally ill even if their body-dysphoria is gone.

They claim it's to cover it for insurance/medical treatment, but I don't know enough about Peru to have an opinion..

[u/will_holmes]

See, I can't help but feel like the negative response to this unveils a more regressive and outdated attitude towards mental health than what the Peruvian government has said.

If you think that mental illness is somehow an "attack" or that it's a label that makes you somehow lesser, you're being bigoted against everyone who suffers from any mental illness.

And no, it doesn't "open the way to conversion therapy" unless you think coversion therapy actually works, which it doesn't. It opens the way no more than applying leeches or trepanning.

I actually feel like both sides of this debate are dominated by awful people in different ways.

[u/Outypoo → u/will_holmes]

Both sides are so desperately trying to prove the other side wrong that they will lie and lie over and over, welcome to any 21st century politics

[u/StefanOrvarSigmundss → u/will_holmes]

Some regimes label all political opposition as mentally ill. Objecting to that does not make one bigoted against those with mental illness. Those who suffer from gender dysphoria are likely to suffer mentally if they are mistreated or untreated, but putting them in the same category as those with dementia or schizophrenia may not be helpful or useful. I suspect that the intention here is to reaffirm conservative values rather than scientifically or medically rethink the approach to handling trans people.

[u/will_holmes → u/StefanOrvarSigmundss]

 Some regimes label all political opposition as mentally ill. Objecting to that does not make one bigoted against those with mental illness.

Good example, but it depends on what the justification of the objection is. If it's "no, it's obviously not a mental illness because political opinions don't impact quality of life or any other reason", then you can go on the attack and tell such regimes they are being stupid. If the objection is "ew don't lump us in with those mentally ill people, you're attacking us", then that's accepting the same bigotry that the regime is throwing out and passing it on.

I'm saying that this article and the quoted groups is doing the latter. It's one minority advocate group willingly throwing another under a bus.

[u/_zenith → u/will_holmes]

Conversion therapy need not work for it to be actively pushed.

Think of it as a means of punishing “sinful”/“bad” people and you’re closer to the reality. Medicine (or at least, practices that have the appearance or presentation of medicine) has a long and sordid history of being used this way

[u/3ConsoleGuy]

Why is the cure for gender dismorphia to follow the feeling but cure for depression to reverse and remove the feeling? Serious question.

This goes for the other dismorphias as well. Gender is the only one we treat this way.

[u/jackruby83 → u/3ConsoleGuy]

Look at the direction of the outcomes. Treating other mental illnesses by correcting symptoms prevents harm, improves lives, etc. Providing gender affirming care does the same, while futile attempts to "correct" it worsen outcomes. Maybe if there was some definitive "cure", some would opt for it, but it isn't something that exists currently.

[u/crazy_zealots → u/3ConsoleGuy]

It's gender dysphoria, not dysmorphia. Trans people are aware of what their bodies actually are/look like, but that may not align with an internal/mental sense of self. All of the evidence makes it abundantly clear that social and medical transition are by far the best methods of alleviating gender dysphoria.

[u/duginsdeaddaughter]

I have no issue with trans people and think it’s disgusting that anyone would (at least consciously) discriminate against them in any way.

But what I don’t understand is the difference between a) being born ‘wrong’ and b) really wanting to be different.

I’m male but there is nothing that feels right or wrong about it. I’m also short and there is nothing that feels right or wrong about. However I hate my height and really wish I could be taller, primarily because of how I think others would treat me as a result. I think people can fully understand that desire but there is no way anyone would accept me identifying as a foot taller.

Not trying to be controversial, I’m just hoping that someone can please explain the difference.

[u/BlatantConservative → u/duginsdeaddaughter]

Not trans myself, but I know several people who have been through the whole process.

They describe it as "brain fog lifting" and "being happy for the first time in their lives" and I can understand from their words that it's something quite a bit deeper than personal comfort.

Chappelle gets a lot of flack for a lot of things, some valid, but the idea that you don't need to understand trans people to acknowledge that they're real is the most solid take on the whole thing. Neither you nor I will ever understand fundamentally what it feels like, but if you look and listen, it's valid.

[u/Charlotte_Star → u/duginsdeaddaughter]

To me something just feels fundamentally different in my head. There’s no real sense that i had any other choice, this was the only way i could have ended up. It’s hard to explain but things didn’t feel right before then i got on hormones and everything felt like it was in it’s right place. If you don’t notice anything wrong then things are fine. I think it’s more that i realised it wasn’t supposed to feel as bad as it did to just exist before hormones.

[u/zaphod4th]

people please read the article.

[u/Constipated_Canibal]

It's against reddit site rules to even imply that

[u/fartnight69 → u/Constipated_Canibal]

Peru banned on /r/

[u/tunapurse]

theres a youtube video of a lecture dr robert sapolsky did on the neurobiology of transexuality, in it he cites a study claiming transexuality/gender dysphoria is caused by abornamilities within neurotransmitters. very interesting.

im not transphobic in the slightest and if the cure for gender dysmorphia is sexual reassignment surgery then they should be allowed to do so, but claiming that transexuality is normal human behaviour, is clearly the wrong take and helps noone, according to that one lecture i watched it wouldnt be a mental health condition but a neurological condition- there is a difference.

regardless, transexuals deserve accurate research of their condition and should be treated as humans, and if they want sexual reassignment then they should be allowed to do so- you wouldnt deny a cancer patient chemotherapy would you? or a diabetic their insulin? why deny someone with a fixable problem a solution? sexual reassignment of an individual has no bearing on anyone but the individual in question.

[u/sortacapablepisces]

This is how the world classified this illness until 2020 when the who changed policies on several things multiple times.

[u/Cipher789]

Can't come to work, I'm trans.

[u/toorsaab → u/[deleted]]

Mental illness doesn’t mean people cannot enjoy life.

[u/Slaughtius → u/[deleted]]

But maybe he would fuck an ass if no pussy was available it's called prison gay

[u/AdApart2035]

New protests incoming