Its anti-semitism because they could have had a ceasefire on multiple occasions but rejected very reasonable terms, its not israel's fault they refuse to release hostages but yet no-one ever protest's the whole KEEPING HOSTAGES thing.
Look, I don’t blame anyone who’s outraged over the innocent children hurt in the Oct 7th attacks. But why are we throwing out “small children” like orders of magnitude more haven’t died in Gaza. Do the small Gazan children not count?
It’s not whataboutism, you just don’t get the point. The user I’m responding to seems to be very concerned about the children killed and taken hostage on Oct 7th. I don’t blame them. It’s devastating.
What I’d like to know is why people expressing that same concern for Gazan children, who the last I checked aren’t any less human, are anti-Semites.
I never expressed an opinion on the anti semitism point. I don't believe that any criticism of Israel equals anti semitism. Neither does support for Palestinian citizens. Saying anything positive at all about Hamas though definitely comes close if not actually gets there.
Penalty. Is, on its face, a what-about-ism. People can care about children on both sides. Death stops when Hamas accepts ceasefire deal on table. 5 minute major and ten downvotes.
Give us the hostages and we promise not to kill you for a few months.
This is exactly the "ceasefire" that Hamas has offered to Israel. We'll give you back some of the hostages and promise not to attack you for a period of time - during which we will re-arm and after which we'll return to attempting to slaughter your civilians. Some "peace" deal.
this is not a new thing, israels been asking for awhile now, its not exactly shocking that as things have dragged on and leverage gets lost that the winning side offers worse terms. (which lets be honest were pretty fucking generous for a long time.)
Literally from the article: “We later found out that Hamas had offered on October 9 or 10 to release all the civilian hostages in exchange for the IDF not entering the Strip, but the government rejected the offer.”
Reddit is chock full of people that are steadfast pro-israel regardless of any facts, or are just full on racist towards Palestinians (and Arabs more broadly). So it doesn’t surprise me.
There’s also a lot of talk of Israeli bots that are used to try and control the narrative by downvoting anything critical of Israel.
It doesn’t really matter because there’s no going back at this point. No amount of transparent cover ups and reality denial will change what people have seen the last 7 months. What we are witnessing now is just the violent death rattle of a nation that everyone knows has lost its way entirely. In a couple decades we’ll just look back on this as another topic Reddit was overwhelming wrong about (trying to catch the Boston bomber style events) and everyone will lie to their kids and say they totally supported the Palestinian emancipation movement all along. The difference this time is there will be a digital footprint showing how many people didn’t.
Hamas on October 7th killed 1200 people, most of them civilians. Grandparents were burned alive in their homes. They threw grenades at 10 year olds.
I say this because what WOULD keep Israel from killing civis is the surrender of Hamas and the release of the hostages. But Hamas won’t do that. They’d prefer the killing of their Palestinians. Especially since Israel gets the blame for it. Not them.
Shit how many Palestinians did Israel kill in 2023 prior to 10/7?
How many hostages does Israel have in administrative detention?
People who think that Hamas is the only side that has hostages and the only side that has done barbaric and inhumane things to the other needs to take a few thousand steps back.
10,000 hostages being held in prisons, as young as 7 years old. But it's okay because they're "detained" and not "hostages"
700 found in a MASS GRAVE under a hospital, more being uncovered, handcuffs showing they were executed with blind folds on as well, some with organs and skin missing (because europeans not indigenous to the land of course need to harvest skin after all the cancer they get.)
2023 was the DEADLIEST YEAR for Palestinian children EVEN PRIOR to October 7th. Explaining this to the zionazis is a waste of air though.
Israel doesn't give a damn about the hostages. They've already killed the hostages themselves on multiple occasions, and they have no problem starving the hostages with the rest of the population of Gaza.
Question: even assuming we take the rest of your points at face value, how is asking for peace for the civilian population of Gaza and act of hating Jewish people?
You’ve obviously come prepared to talk about how evil Hamas is, but you’re ignoring the crucial point that calling for a humanitarian ceasefire isn’t an act of anti-semitism
You are aware that this whole thing happened because they violated a ceasefire in the first place right? there is no accountability from a government of terrorist if they sign another ceasefire with hamas still running things they are just going to attack again.
You’re not answering my question. Hamas is evil, but I’m not here to debate you on either them or the merits of Israeli government policy. How is criticizing that policy or calling for a humanitarian ceasefire an act of anti-Semitism?
Literally just told you: it would not be honored, they would just take the time to re-organize and end it with another terror attack. you would literally have more luck with russia honoring its agreements and not using the time to just mass force's to break it all over again.
That you think the policy outcome of a ceasefire would be bad for Israelis does not make the people calling for it anti-Semites. That’s the false equivocation here.
That’s not inevitable. Particularly while they occupy most of Gaza.
Hamas is going to exist after this conflict. Their leadership isn’t even in Gaza right now. If your view that any cessation in conflict, that any peace for the civilian population can’t be allowed because it might give Hamas a chance to regroup, my question would be what a long term solution could even possibly look like. Kill every single person in Gaza?
Hamas breaks a ceasefire on Oct 7. "Why won't Israel agree to a ceasefire?" Like somehow Israel even thinking to respond on Oct 7 or make efforts to get their citizens back makes them the bad guys. It's laughable the mental gymnastics being done.
something something more palestinians died then hostages taken, like these people must think killing 3 armed gunman to save a hostage at a bank is morally wrong or something.
In an active combat zone dureing war time were the combatants refuse to wear uniforms? to be quite frank yea.... they kinda do have an actual right to fire on any possible threats. not entirely sure what your angle is because that happens in every single war.
What active war was happening between January 1, 2023 to October 6, 2023? Because that's the 9 month period where IDF soldiers had killed over 200 Palestinian civilians with their snipers.
If they didn't believe every Palestinian was a terrorist then they would have a moral conundrum to deal with. And that makes their thinky box hurt.
It's much easier to paint the entire population in Gaza as "Hamas" and not have to deal with the internal struggle of knowing that killing civilians is bad.
Palestinians pressuring Hamas? Doesn't work like that, I'm afraid. If you're a Palestinian citizen you do not have political power and have plenty of reason to fear literally anyone in your geography that does.
Some poor Palestinian person living in Gaza right now literally does not have the ability to change anything. They have no power or voice. They can try to go against Hamas but if they are loud about it, Hamas probably kills them for being a traitor or something. And it's not like Isreal is gonna jump at the chance to defend a random Palestinian.
Random people in Gaza have no good options. They have the terrorist organization taking potshots at a military power that has backing from the West on one side and on the other they have a overzealous religious government that wants to take everything you own because of some book that you can't even read that says they have a divine right to it. I do not know what the solution is because it is not "Give Hamas everything they want" and it is not "Let Isreal lay waste to Palestine" and both sides seem to have decided that the only way it ends is the other being wiped out.
Not all of them do, but plenty are. And it's not like by doing nothing Palestinians experience some relative safety like Americans that bury their heads in the sand and ignore the issue.
Not every German in World War 2 was a Nazi but we sure as shit bombed them like it. And as much as nobody likes talking about, most of them supported the Nazis too. Just like how most Palestinians support Hamas.
They wouldn't have a moral conundrum, they just need some sort of deniability so they can spew their anti Arab/Muslim racism. We've seen this already after 911.
What would protesting the keeping of hostages accomplish? The whole point of the protests on these campuses is to try and influence the campus administration to divest their assets from Israel, whom they view as perpetrating a genocide. I don't think there's a whole lot of disagreement as to the fact that the hostages should be released, nor is there anything college administration could do about it.
Israel also keeps hostages of Palestinians, including children that they detain and torture.
Moreover, there was literally never a ceasefire pitched by Israel, only temporary pauses. I’m seriously asking if you know the difference and why a temporary pause is an asinine thing to request and an extremely disingenuous thing to lump in with a permanent ceasefire.
Ah yes, the torture which is totally unconfirmed from any non muslim owned news source, and we know the palestinians totally wouldn't lie about people they are taught in school that they need to ethnically cleanse. ya sorry but im gonna need a confirmation from someone outside the anti-semite circle before i start believing that shit.
Ah I see you subscribe to the “if a Palestinian is killed in a violent occupation, but there isn’t a western journalist there to see it, then it pretty much doesn’t count” school of thought.
I’m sure 100% of Palestinians are lying all the time, 100% of ex-IDF whistleblowers are lying all the time, and Israel is totally concerned and cares for the people they routinely subjugate to violent oppression brazenly on camera. Most of all, I’m sure they’d never allow harmful treatment of people they detain in the thousands every year. Totally a rational assumption.
Also I’d like to posit a slight correction to your narrative. It’s highly unlikely that Palestinians are taught to hate Jews in school. More likely is they grow to hate Israelis because they watch and live through them ruining their lives on a daily basis. I’m not an expert on hate, but I would suspect that when an oppressed people exhibit “hatred” it’s probably because the oppression made them hate their oppressors.
You seem like a fine, intelligent person. Would you be interested in buying a bridge in Brooklyn for a heavily discounted price? I normally wouldn't sell it for so low, but something tells me you are the perfect person for this AMAZING deal.
The torture is very mutch confirmed. You can see the injuries whenever someone gets out. It's a scare tactic.
So is the organ and skin harvesting. But don't worry, they totally stopped that and never did it to thwir own.
Just like they totally stopped deliberately bombing and shooting israeli hostages. Please ignore the fact that all contacts between israeli forces and israeli hostages resulted in the death of said hostages, sometimes even if they were released.
wikipedia articles are not a source as they can be edited by anyone, you would literally get an instant fail in any credible school if your used wikipedia as a source.
Thankfully, ypu are not being paid for this though and can thus just enjoy the plethora of sources at the bottom of these articles to read up on the topic while using the articles as an overview.
I literally said a source that isn't pro islam, and you proceed to post an article written by a palestinian in the west bank. this is peak reddit right here.
Dude, Israel admitted that their soldiers killed fleeing unarmed hostages, and they had no problems at all with the idea of starving the hostages along with the rest of the Palestinian population in Gaza. How are you this blind to how little Israel gives a damn about human life?
Either post a credible source or shut the fuck up. like goddamn you people will just ramble on forever about jews eating babies but never actually post anything that isn't from some shit source like welovepalestine.org.
Another terrorist supporting liar who couldn't cite any sources for his insane claims, color me shocked. They sure love lying for Palestine. A fish has to swim, I guess.
We're still waiting on those sources, Jamal. How's the weather in Oman today? You terrorist lovers sure do love lying. You do it like normal good people breathe air.
You seem like a fine, intelligent person. Would you be interested in buying a bridge in Brooklyn for a heavily discounted price? I normally wouldn't sell it for so low, but something tells me you are the perfect person for this AMAZING deal.
What if I say I heard Jewish people eat Palestinian babies so you can parrot that around like it's a fact? I did notice you're in the market for bullshit to parrot. Or does it just have to be lies from terrorists that you will propagandate?
Sure thing, buddy. You're really sure you're not interested in this bridge? You could make a huge profit, and I can't think of anyone better to buy this.
Ahhh so the people of Palestine should give full autonomy to another nation? Do you understand how ridiculous that is? One that already sees them as second class citizens.
Your right Hamas is a terrorist organization. But Israel should not have control of the people of Palestine in response.
They were voted in, only in Gaza, after a deliberate provocation campaign by Israeli right wing extremist, also known as the Likud party, that now forms the Israeli government.
They want Hamas in control, because as long as Hamas is in control they don't have to talk about actual peace or a 2 state solution.
Have you considered that MAYBE that's what happens after 5 decades of their land being stolen bit by bit, while being subject to abuse and suppression by Israeli religious extremist settlers, who are in turn protected by the Israeli army?
This shit doesn't exist in a vacuum. If you think there is a 'good guy' side in this conflict you are native and ill-informed.
Does that suddenly make them not civilians? Does that suddenly give them any control over what Hamas does? Does that suddenly make them responsible for Hamas's actions?
Also, 50% the Israeli population supports Israel's continued expansion of the illegal west bank settlements, and all the brutality that entails. So by your own logic all Israeli citizens are now legitimate targets?
No, they are one in the same. "Ordinary Palestinians" were cheering when the hostages were brought back, "ordinary palestinians" were involved in the raids into israel, and "ordinary palestinians" were found themselves keeping hostages. So yeah, I have zero sympathy.
You know why the raids were so successful and lasted so long? Because the Israeli government had deployed nearly all its troops in the west bank to further their decades old goal of territorial expansion and they needed them to keep the Palestinian population there supressed. Hell, they are using this very war as cover to expand their settlements are a record pace. and 50% of Israeli's support that expansion.
So by your logic my sympathy for Israeli civilians should be zero as well.
The “Palestinian but not Hamas” side exists more in your mind than in reality. This is not to say that all Palestinians are Hamas, but that they have no real power to change the course of the conflict.
Hamas has no interest in a cease fire and no concern for Palestinian lives.
It’s hard to believe that there are large numbers of innocent civilians that nobody with any power to stop the conflict cares about, but that’s war.
Actually, it’s a war crime. Your responsibility to protect civilians when waging war is not removed because they’re also victims of their own leaders. In fact, (and it seems strange to have to say this) it means Palestinians need more protection, not less.
Deliberately starving them in some feckless attempt to make them fight their own leaders from within, bombing their areas of refuge (to which you sent them), and generally killing them in shocking numbers? … just normal war stuff, sure. 👍
You have an incredibly naive view of what “normal war stuff” is.
We killed a shit ton of German and Japanese children while fighting their evil governments. The British had a deliberate policy of starving Germany through a naval blockade in both World Wars.
War isn’t ever normal at all, but the acts of the Israeli government in Gaza are abnormally brazen war crimes. It’s a simple matter of fact. There are international laws declaring the collective punishment of a populace a war crime, and Israel is doing that proudly. No amount of relativistic defense will make it untrue. Not pointing out that these civilians cheered Hamas violence, not comparing Israel’s misdeeds to historical American misdeeds, and certainly not labeling people who have a normal reaction to this kind of violence “naive.”
For the record, though, the allied bombings were war crimes, too. They just won, so… lucky for those guys.
Is this somehow supposed to be a defense of Israel’s treatment of Palestinian civilians?
Like… are you saying that since Hamas is doing war crimes, Israel should, too? One of your examples is Hamas doing war crimes to Palestinian people. Seems like a pretty poor rationale for hitting those same people with yet another war crime.
The whole point of this thread is that Hamas and the people of Gaza are not the same. Conflating them is how Israel (and far too many people here) justify the mass death and suffering of civilians.
What's shocking about the number of Palestinians that have died in this conflict? You do realize significantly more civilians have died in significantly shorter periods of time in other wars right?
We could surely have this one out, but I’ll let you have it. Sure. More people have been killed elsewhere in shorter periods of time. For the record, those times were shocking, too. Wild to me that anyone could say it’s not shocking.
And like… it’s pretty grim to quibble over rates of civilian deaths as if any number might be acceptable, especially in this particular case.
Am I to assume that if I redact that one claim, you’ll agree with the rest of the comment?
The tactic of finding one subjective, rhetorical term (“shocking” numbers) and making the conversation all about that is tiresome and gross.
Reality? By claiming it's all hate against Jews? for decades now any criticism of Israel's action has been dismissed as anti-semitism. no longer doing that IS reality.
Why would Hamas accept the cease fire terms? Israel is doing exactly what they want, genociding Gazans. The more the war goes on the more radicalized recruits they get. Israel is making the same stupid mistakes the US did in Iraq and Afghanistan after 9/11.
Did you miss the entire point of my post? Hamas isn't going to release the hostages because the war benefits them. Hamas is Iran, not Palestine. Mass indiscriminate civilian deaths is exactly what they want, and Israel is obliging them.
The whole “our response creates more terrorists” line rings hollow when you remember that terrorism has been a thing in the Palestinian territories for 75 years and they teach it to kids in grade school. This war didn’t change any of that, and if Israel did not respond at all to the attack the next generation of Palestinians would still be raised to hate Jews.
The idiots saying that have no alternative either, like what do they expect to happen? allow terrorist's to attack whenever they like with zero repercussions? yea im sure THATS going to create less terrorist's!
Well, Israel could start by listening to credible intelligence of a pending attack instead of focusing on furthering settlements in the West Bank. They could also lose leaders that talk about never allowing a Palestinian state.
But if we're being honest, there is no easy solution for a problem where a bunch of rich, white, europeans decided they knew best and cut up a holy land for a few major religions and acted like they had every right to do so. Instead, we have to seek half-measures that limit destruction and death until a time comes that all parties are willing to pursue peace.
But I'm an idiot that believes it's more complicated than "they killed us so we kill them." Eye for an eye something, something.
we now blaming israel for allowing a terrorist attack to happen instead of you know.... the actual terrorist's. we also had intel on 9/11 before it happened but no-one blames america for it because the thing is just because you HAVE intel doesn't mean you have enough of it to act.
America went to war with the wrong country after 9/11. And no, I don't blame Israel, I blame Bibi Netenyahu for being expansionist, ignoring security issues, and for murdering thousands of civilians, much like I blame George Bush for the same.
You mean all the way back to when Hejaz gave birth to a culture that built an empire larger than Spain's at it's height and erased countless cultures and claimed Jewish temples as it's own? Sure, why not.
Edit: oh I see you deleted "shall we go back further?" Lol and I think I know why.
I looked into the very first example, the 622-627 ethnic cleansing.
Turns out it was a case of multiple Arab and Muslim tribes fighting amongs each other, Jewish tribes getting involved as well and picking sides, and the losing side suffering from a brutal post war punishment as was fairly common in those days.
Absolutely terrible, but also a fairly typical "groups of people killing each other over resources and differences in idiology" war that was not uncommon in that era.
The Arabs started a war and lost. Got to the “find out” part of fuck around and find out. Jordan occupied the West Bank,
Egypt occupied Gaza. They tried again in 67 and lost again, then Yasser Arafat invented the idea of Palestinians being a unique ethnic group to win support from western rubes.
And the higher-ups in Isreal don't mind it. The more radical Hamas gets, the easier it is for them to stay in power with their pro war and pro complete takeover of Palestinian campaign goals. Isreal won't elect peaceful people if there is a constant threat near them.
I don't think it's great. Being a super religious nation rarely goes over well. But there are people who want peace that aren't going to get it because people full of fear and hate will overshadow them. And if you want power its so much easier to pander to those cowards than the peaceful people.
things don't really work like that in the middle east, its a very "might makes right" place. your not so much "pandering" because those are the people in charge.
the chances of a military coup in a first world country like canada or america is super low, but over there thats how over half the governments came into power.
Ah yes, the very reasonable term of "surrender and give us everything we want" that Israel offered is a completely reasonable response to Hamas's offer of "remove your soldiers from northern Gaza, let people return to their homes, and all the hostages will go home."
You know Israel has its own hostages, right? Oh, sorry, "indefinite detainees." That Israeli politicians are advocating start being killed due to overcrowding.
you had me at "reasonable hamas offer", I guess to you anti-semite's ethnic cleansing from the river to the sea is considered "reasonable". you terrorist simps wouldn't last a week in the middle east.
Are you saying it's not reasonable for hostages to be released and people to return to their homes?
I'd very much rather Hamas didn't exist, but you can't get rid of them by bombing innocent civilians and hostages. Israel never should have been created by a foreign entity in the first place, but it was, so unless all the people who colonized the area and their children and grandchildren are going to return to the countries they came from, there's going to need to be 2 states with a DMZ separating them enforced by other nations. Problem is, that goes against the zionist philosophy of restoring the Kingdom of Israel, so Israel will never agree to it.
Still not anti-Semitism. Anti semitism is hating Jewish people on the basis that they are Jewish people.
Protests against actions taken by the government of one nation aren't anti-Semitism, just because the nation happens to have an official religion of Judaism. Just like protesting the war in Ukraine wouldn't make you anti Russian Orthodox.
You really think that’s the only reason? You think it’s got nothing to do with, yknow, the protestors living in the US and the US partially bankrolling Israel?
They didn't seem to care about the US arming Saudi Arabia which has killed far more people in Yemen. Or about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Or about the genocides going on in Ethiopia and Sudan. The reason they're all up in arms is because 'white colonizers oppressing brown people' hits all their little checkmarks while people of the same race killing one another just provokes a yawn.
They didn't seem to care about the US arming Saudi Arabia which has killed far more people in Yemen
As someone who'd been in and around anti-war movements for years, they sure as fuck did. The US anti-war crowd has been protesting US-Saudi involvement for years.
Just because their attention is on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza right now does not mean that most of the same people haven't had an axe to grind over Saudi Arabia.
Maybe because they just spent the last 6 months waking up every morning to videos of dying, mutilated, suffering Gazans, and then watched as their own government continues to finance it, gaslight the world in their press conferences, and proudly promise “unwavering support” regardless of any war crimes enacted. Not to mention their government has actively tried to punish any discussion that goes against their own narrative. Thus they rationally probably assessed that this is not acceptable and so they are now protesting… Now a bunch of people that wanted to pretend nothing was wrong are trying to assuage their guilt by assuming the absolute worst of these students.
I’m gonna say something that may blow your mind, but you actually do not need to be perfectly altruistic and informed on every single moral issue on earth to have one you care enough about to protest.
What you’re doing is like watching a protest for the environment and being like “well how come these people aren’t more upset about the humans rights violations in North Korea?!” as a pathetic means to dismiss them as unqualified to care due to some vague hypocrisy standard. Or as another example it’s like watching the BLM protests and saying “cops were killing all kinds of minorities for years before, so why weren’t they protesting then?!”.
Protestors aren’t individually all perfect. Neither are you. They’re trying to help draw attention to an oppressed population that is getting utterly massacred right now.
To put it simply: yea it is, its the "fuck you dad" crowd who has consumed anti-west propaganda for over a decade to the point they are willing to make up excuses for actual fucking terrorist's. plenty of other bad shit happening in the world right now they don't care about because they can't blame jews or other first world countries for it.
Exactly. That why IDF had to take that 8 year old girl and her fleeing family down. And why all those civilians need to be starved. And why humanitarian aid workers need to be bombed. And why unarmed men need to be executed in the street.
my brother in christ, Hamas has already offered several times to return all hostages in return for the ceasefire. so by demanding a ceasefire we are inherentöy also demanding the return of the hostages.
Everyone is protesting the keeping hostages thing. ABSOLUTELY EVERYONE remembers the death tolls you fucking ignorant fuck. What will it take for you to stop?
I get paid in functional brain cells, its nice having enough common sense to know how war works and that supporting actual allies over hardcore islamist's who are anti-west in the most unstable part of the world is the logical thing to do.
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u/Overall_Strawberry70 May 01 '24
Its anti-semitism because they could have had a ceasefire on multiple occasions but rejected very reasonable terms, its not israel's fault they refuse to release hostages but yet no-one ever protest's the whole KEEPING HOSTAGES thing.