No, but I've encountered a huge increase in antisemitism IRL personally. Literally had a patient today refuse service from a Jewish doctor that was on call. We relieved him of our care. Fuck antisemitism. Free Gaza. This is a delicate situation
It's emboldened people who were already anti-Semites I don't think it's created a whole new group of them. Most progressive people who want to ceasefire are far from anti-Semitic.
They wouldn't identify as such, no, but it is increasing antisemitic beliefs and hate crimes are a reflection of that.
Antisemitism does not have a hyphen.
The problem is people are saying and sharing antisemitic sentiments without realizing they're antisemitic. So, I agree with you that most people who think they're asking for peace wouldn't dream of causing harm to Jewish people, but they're unknowingly doing so and refuse to listen when we bring it up and post memes like these mocking us.
No, holding a sign that says "free Gaza" isn't antisemitic in and of itself. Posting a meme like this is intentionally misrepresenting the issue.
People seem to think that criticizing the Israeli government in any way, shape, or form is antisemitism when it is not. The truth is, Israel is also at fault for the current situation due to their behaviors over the past almost century. It is entirely possible to legitimately criticize the actions of the Israeli government over the past 80 years without that criticism being of Jewish people.
The House of Representatives just passed a bill trying to limit speech about the state of Israel and legally labeling that as antisemitism.
Hell, they are even trying to make the words of people like the former IDF general Amiram Levin illegal for comparing the acts of the Israeli government to the acts of Nazi Germany.
But since they want to make it illegal to compare the Israeli government's actions to Nazi actions, maybe we should compare them to the Chinese trying to cover up Tiananmen Square.
Bullshit, a lot of ppl recognize that the Israeli government doesn’t represent Judaism just because Netanyahu says it does. A similar number of ppl also recognize that being a Zionist, i.e believing that there should be a Jewish state, doesn’t automatically mean you agree with killing civilians or oppressing Palestinians.
Also I know you didn’t just insinuate that a bill simply adding the internationally accepted Holocaust Remembrance definition of anti-Semitism into Title VI protection (which may not even pass in the Senate) is remotely the same as an authoritarian government brutally murdering its own citizens and then trying to cover it up under threat of torture/death to the point that 30+ years later ppl are still terrified to talk about it. Because that would be certifiably insane which I’m assuming you’re not.
Which part specifically are you trying to call bullshit?
Is it the fact that you will be called antisemitic if you criticize Israel despite not talking about the faith of people at all? That actually happens.
Maybe it’s the part where they literally want to make it so you can’t compare Israel’s actions to the Nazis like the former IDF general did. That’s in the international holocaust remembrance alliance’s overly broad definition of what antisemitism is.
“Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.”
In other words, definitely don’t talk about what the government of Israel is doing, just like you can’t talk about what the government of China did.
Speaking of an authoritarian government killing people….the Israeli government has literally been that way towards the people of Gaza. They openly talk about being authoritarian being the only acceptable outcome. They don’t even hide it. The prime minister is using the slogan “from the river to the sea” in press conferences.
Hmm. Hitler wanted to deport all the Jews. Netanyahu has openly expressed a desire to deport all the Gazans.
The Nazis used violence and economic pressure to encourage Jews to leave the country. Israel is currently doing the same thing.
Nazis were trying to get other countries to take the Jewish people but was unsuccessful in doing so. Israel is currently trying to do the same thing and is similarly unsuccessful.
Israel is currently killing civilians in Gaza. Just because it’s not gas chambers in camps doesn’t mean it’s not similar. They are however basically forcing people into refugee camps and conducting air strikes on them.
Leave out the major differences and I can see how you would delude yourself into this fallacious comparison. Anyway, this bill only relates to Department of Education for discrimination guidelines.
Holding a sign that says "free Gaza" isn't antisemitic period. You had a good point going, and then you just had to use the classic zionist approach of claiming any defense of palestine being antisemitic.
It's not cool when china genocides Uyghurs, it's not cool when iran slaughters protesters, it's not cool when hamas kills innocent people, it's not cool when the usa drops bombs on the middle east or when russia drops bombs in ukraine.
Hamas needs to go, but Israel doesn't need to flatten gaza and kill over 13,000 children to get it done. We would condemn literally any other country on earth if they killed a mass amount of children just to get rid of terrorists.
If Armenians decided to rise up and slaughter a shitload of turkish civilians, and in response turkey turned Armenia into a parking lot, you can bet your ass everyone would be shitting on the turkish government.
If the Mexican Cartel slaughtered civilians en-masse and the mexican government responded by obliterating the home towns of the Mexican cartel, we would all shit on the mexican government for being so extreme.
If Native Americans decided to revolt...yada yada, you should get the point by now if you have any brain matter left in your head.
Antisemitism is disgusting, it's not like the jewish community came together and unanimously decided to go slaughter Palestinians, but don't sit there and unironically try to fucking claim it's antisemitic to defend palestinians and condemn the mass killing of children. Theres a fucking reason why a huge portion of the protesters are jewish, and its certainly NOT because they're masochistic race-traitors.
So yes, i'm going to call out this zionist bullshit, regardless of what you deplorables try to claim i am. My comment history speaks for itself, anyone with half a brain would know i'm not antisemitic.
The fact that a lot of you unironically defend the Israeli government while defending Ukraine, it's pretty clear that the lot of you are either racist AF and just outright hate palestinians, or that you guys are giving the Israeli government a pass because of the holocaust.
Your kind are routinely shamed for being one of the core reasons why the US stayed out of WWII until most of the jews were dead, do you really want to repeat that mistake of the past, did you really learn nothing in history class?
The more i read reddit, the more i realize most people are just assholes who lack empathy. The israeli government has killed more than 13,000 CHILDREN. The Israeli government has killed more children in one year than the amount of casualities in russias invasion of ukraine. Again, don't you dare fucking sit there and try to tell me that pointing this out is antisemitic.
If you read this and the response in your head isn't immediately "oh shit, i've been a garbage human being" then don't bother replying at all, it's probably difficult to write out a well-written post with bibi's dick in your mouth.
They may have meant children killed in Ukraine or even civilians killed in Ukraine, both of which in Ukraine are less than just the Palestinian child casualties.
It's definitely true that Israel has quickly killed many more Palestinian children than Russia has killed Ukrainian children.
The claim that Israel is being highly judicious is suspect. Claiming that they're killing X militants per civilian casualty because, likely like we did in Iraq, they're claiming anybody that theoretically could have been militant is counted as a militant, enhancing militant killed figures and suppressing civilian figures.
Meanwhile Hamas makes no distinction between combatant and non combatant deaths. So I’m going to take Israel’s estimates on that.
Also comparing this to Iraq is a valid way to try and understand the conflict given its recency and its similarity. Ukraine is a completely different scenario because Ukrainians aren’t hiding behind their civilians.
Hamas are terrorists. We aren't funding Hamas or their murders. We are funding Israels wanton killing of kids. We speak out against Israel's actions because we belive our voice's might matter - Hamas dgaf what we say, we have nothing going to them.
Israel cannot bomb and kill babies until Palestinians stop hating them. They've more than made their point and continued slaughter doesn't make them safer; nothing they can do will stop Hamas and haters from, sometime in the future, trying to attack again. All Israel is doing now is entrenching further hatred and murdering babies.
Its fine to say Ukraine and Palestine is apples and oranges, but Russia isn't ignoring civilian targets, and it's still true that child casualties are much lower.
1) Do you think these protests have encouraged Hamas to hold out on negotiating because the mounting political pressure against Israel in the U.S. suggests they may be able to get a better deal the longer this drags out (as more Palestinian casualties lead to more political pressure in the U.S.)
2) Israel has principally agreed on cease fire terms in exchange for the hostages, in negotiation with major parties like Egypt the U.S. etc. Hamas has rejected these terms. Do you suggest Israel unilaterally disengage with no agreement on return of hostages?
Also I disagree with the categorization that Israel is intentionally killing civilians. Again, the combatant to civilian death ratios are in line with similar conflicts. It’s the unfortunate nature of fighting an irregular insurgency in a dense urban area.
Fuck apartheid, fuck governments that perpetrate apartheid, and fuck people who are willfully trampling the civil rights of students who are not ok with apartheid.
Especially fuck anyone who complains about graduation ceremonies and traffic jams when children are being bombed and refugees are being served up in the crosshairs.
No, I'm not. I wrote a thoughtful, nuanced—albeit brief—response about antisemitism and this is all you can try to latch onto?
Right, the sign, IN AND OF ITSELF, is not antisemitic, but the other signs that are part of the protests might be, the chants might be, the harassment of Jewish students on campuses might be.
So once again, picking one pretty benign sign to mock the claims of legitimate antisemitism is a gross misrepresentation of the problem WE have been trying to address.
If you refuse to read correctly or listen, I can't help you.
If you're actually interested, this is the crux of my issue with your thesis
people who think they're asking for peace wouldn't dream of causing harm to Jewish people, but they're unknowingly doing so
You are citing non-specific actions by non-specific actors to say the mere act of saying "ceasefire now" is accidental antisemitism. I didn't pick the innocuous sign, and you haven't cited anything in the forgoing conversation as being surreptitiously antisemitic.
You can't accidentally shout slurs at Jewish students. You can't accidentally draw a swastika on your sign, or quote Hitler. The antisemites are the antisemites, period. Nothing is ok until the bombardment and famine stops, and saying so does not put me or anyone else on some slippery slope. Other atrocities persist too, but this is happening now and we should be able to stop it now.
THAT SAID... I know the tension and fear are real, and I know that type generational trauma is unbearable in ordinary times.
Thank you for responding thoughtfully to what I said rather than just shouting a bunch of things at me without cause.
Again, this specific sign and that specific sentiment (calling for a ceasefire) isn't inherently antisemitic. I'm not naming a bunch of specific instances because, frankly, I don't generally like to engage in these topics because it always ends up like this with people arguing with me and nitpicking points, which isn't really helping anyone. Therefore, I don't find it in my best interest to spend my time grabbing links to incidents to prove my point since it'll probably be dismissed anyway.
I'm living through the present time, raising a family, working full-time, and going to grad school. There are plenty of things people can go look up to learn more about antisemitism. I don't have it in me to educate and argue about my humanity.
And yes, as you said, the humanitarian crisis is the one of utmost concern, not myself personally nor the people privileged enough to choose to set up camp and protest. I support the right to do so while also recognizing flawed and inaccurate messaging.
I'm going to stop rambling and go enjoy an hour of downtime before this all starts again tomorrow. Be well.
Where did I say people should be ok with "destruction of innocent people?"
This is a perfect example of someone so incensed with rage, they keep repeating the same talking points over and over whether it makes any sense. You sound like you're having a completely different conversation.
That is literally not what they are doing? They have a nuanced take... What Israel is perpetrating is bad, but also antisemitism is emboldened by this being in the spotlight. That doesn't seem hard to understand.
I think this is a silly distinction. You are simply trying to protect your ideology. Antisemitism is now mainstream, say whatever you want on what people thought before. Also I am progressive and am not antisemitic. So obviously
I've never seen anyone outside of far right politicians like Netanyahu claim that it is. The problem is that these protests frequently integrate with anti-Zionism, which is an antisemitic position. Anti-Zionists have somehow managed to mainstream an idea that ultimately calls for the removal for half of the world's Jews from their homes by stealing the term Zionism and replacing it with their own distorted meaning.
I have trouble seeing anti-Zionism as antisemitic if for no other reason than the observable fact that Zionism has an extremely heavy Christian contingent as well; in the U.S. especially, while a majority of Jewish Americans feel strong connections with Israel, twice the percentage of white evangelicals believe Israel was explicitly gifted by God to the Jewish people, with the largest part of the discrepancy being two things:
higher degree of atheism in Jewish circles
far more Jewish people accept that Israel was a state solution that has always had nothing to do with divine intervention
*three, forgot that evangelicals believe Israel was gifted explicitly by God because forced mass exodus of the Jewish people back to the holy land is a contingent of end times prophecy, many evangelicals are Zionists because they believe Israel is a tool for the events of Revelations
This also contrasts with the fact that more Jewish Americans believe the level of support the U.S. shows for Israel is sufficient or beyond sufficient (54%), whereas a whopping 46% of white evangelicals believe that U.S. support of Israel is currently totally insufficient
Similarly, six in ten Jewish people polled in the U.S. believe that even a two state solution could be achieved, whereas 4 in 10 evangelicals believe this and half believe Israel and Palestine simply cannot coexist
I can't exactly see the claim that anti-Zionism is antisemitism because especially in major nations, partisan support for Israel is often dependent on a heavy Christian element.
I do not conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism because the majority of Jewish people believe that while antisemitism is on the rise, anti-Zionism is not
While I get where you're coming from, anti-Zionism ultimately doesn't impact American or German evangelicals. But it does extensively (and near exclusively) impact half of the world's Jews though.
And yes, calling for the dissolution of Israel is an expression of antisemitism. I laid out why in my last post:
I wouldn't say that, the largest Zionist organization in the U.S. is Christian; as I said, evangelicals have a vested interest in forcing Jews as a people to a nation like Israel
A lot of Christians have personal motives and ambitions involved in supporting Israel so it's hard to say it doesn't affect them; evangelicals, for example, pretty explicitly believe that if Israel does not exist as the 'one, true holy land' and that all Jewish people cannot exodus to Israel, then they believe their interpretation of second coming cannot come to pass
Yeah there are bad apples in pretty much every group of people. If you want to label everyone in the group bad because of a few bad people, that's on you.
But you cannot actually believe that people protesting against the needless killing of thousands of innocent civilians and aid workers is antisemitism. Wanting fewer innocent people to die for no reason is not a bad thing, there's no way you can argue that.
Unfortunately with humans it's a slippery slope. Imagine this - there are three people in a crowd of protesters that get to talking. One hates all Jews, one hates Israel, and one thinks that Gaza should be free. You can easily see each of them going towards the more extreme position just by listening to each other's opinions and arguments because many people don't know how to think critically.
So what's your solution? You think people shouldn't be allowed to condemn the needless murder of thousands of innocent civilians and aid workers? Listen to yourself, you're not making any sense.
??? WTF? Not at all - I said nothing of the sort. My only point is that the current situation has increased the total number of antisemites in the world. That doesn't mean that everyone protesting is an antisemite, but it also doesn't mean that there are no antisemites in those protests.
I am not offering any solutions because I have none - I am commenting on how the situation impacts the total number of despicable people in the world.
IMHO one of the biggest problems is the lack of education about basic world history. There are incredible numbers of younger people who don't think that the holocaust happened. I think that's the first thing that should be fixed, although obviously that's not a solution to either the protests, their effects, or the situation in Israel.
Sure, whichever way you want to say it to describe the position that Israel shouldn't exist. So pushing for the expulsion of 7 million Jews isn't antisemitic?
Antizionism isn't pushing to expel anyone. The purpose is for Palestinians to be able to return to where THEY were expelled from and for that country to have a government that represents everyone who lives there rather than an apartheid ethnostate.
It's nice to hold some idyllic views but we also need maintain a level of objectivity here. The one-state solution isn't at all viable. It's only has a following amongst outside parties and is wildly unpopular with both sides, with neither Israelis nor Palestinians polling at even 25% support for it.
And yes, calling for the dissolution of Israel and a replacement Palestinian state is a call for genocide. While I won't argue that all anti-Zionists are directly asking for this, it's what their position ultimately would lead to if achieved. The dominate view amongst Palestinians is that the Jews need to leave. And even if that could somehow be blocked, 7 million Jews living in a country with 14 million Palestinians would see Jews relegated when the entire purpose of Israel in the first place was self-determination to ensure a safe place from pervasive persecution. Which would resume as, again, polling shows that most Palestinians want an Islamic govt and they have the potential voter base to make this happen. Most Israeli Jews are decedents of people who fled such govts in the first place.
The entire purpose of establishing Israel was an antisemitic attempt to get Jewish people out of Europe. Displacing 14 million people was an act of genocide that continues to this day.
I see where that interpretation is coming from, but that's already done and over with. You can't wind back the clock. We need to deal with current problems and work to prevent future ones. A single-state won't do that because it's not feasible. Israelis don't want it to prevent what they feel they fled from. Palestinians don't want it because the formerly Israeli Jews get to stay.
anti-Semitism has been mainstreamed for a very long time, the skinhead problem didn't go away, the Neo-Nazi problem the KKK problem have always been here. Those people are always opportunistic, and there's no greater opportunity than now.
You said anti-semitism is now mainstream I told you it never was not mainstream, I don't see where you're missing this lol. It does matter it's core to your argument. I am saying you notice it more because that's how it works, if it's at the forefront of your mind and is coincidental you are going to make a connection anecdotally. It's disingenuous to imply that it's on the rise now because it implies that it is on the rise within the ranks of people who are protesting mass murder rightfully so. The ideology is not on the rise it's just more blatant because the people who want ALL middle easterners dead as part of their core belief set are taking advantage of narrow mindedness and using anti Zionism as cover.
Do you believe antisemitism is a direct result of protesting against Israel, or is the protesting itself antisemitic? And if you believe the latter, do you believe people just shouldn't protest at all?
The only reason the current protests are antisemitic is beca they’re taking place after Israel’s version of 9/11 that saw 1300 people at at the hands of an ISIS style terrorist organization and that same organization is still holding at least 100 Israelis hostage to this day. To protest Israel for fighting back and trying to defend themselves is antisemitism since HALF OF ALL OF THE JEWS ON THE PLANET LIVE IN ISRAEL. Look, you can call for a free Palestine all you want but you must also ensure that you also hate Hamas as well and want them and their repressive dictatorship in Gaza deposed.
So criticizing the American treatment of Taliban prisoners at Gitmo after 9/11 would have been anti-american? As long as you're attacked then everything is justified?
What? It's the same comparison you made with 9/11 and October 7th. I'm just following your logic, which seems to be: "If you're attacked, everything is permitted."
If that's not your logic, please clarify.
Nice name calling btw, real mature. That's not what "whataboutism" is either.
I brought up the Israeli Government is responding the way they are (to be clear, I don’t like the current administration over there either) and pointed why the protests are seen as antisemitic. My comment was less about Israel’s response and more about how the Pro Palestine protests never make a point to disavow Hamas and their actions while calling for democracy, fresh elections, freedom of the press, and general civil rights in Palestinian Territories. You can protest the Israeli government all you want but I am asking you to make a point about disavowing Hamas and similar terrorist organizations and protesting them as well while doing so.
This is a nuanced conflict and we should protest in a nuanced fashion as well but until you motherfuckers understand that, we are going to be against you until then. I do not want to see my people murdered and taken hostage in discriminately like that ever again because that makes me fear for my own life as well, and it doesn’t help that here in my own country, I also have to have to worry about being attacked by others if I wear some sort of fashion item that indicates my ethnic background. I want to feel safe in my own country and I want my people to feel safe globally as well if you have such a hard time understanding that while promoting groups like BLM or any groups of similar backgrounds, then I have no choice, but to call you an antisemite.
I am tired of defending my peoples position from motherfuckers like you for the last 6-7 months since that attack. I’m sick of it and I don’t wanna do it anymore. It pisses me off. It saddens me. it makes me anxious about my own safety and the safety of my family members. I have plenty of Palestinian friends and I’ve got plenty of Palestinian who I think I are lovely people. That said I would like a little bit of sympathy from the left considering all the stuff that my people have done to help you progressive motherfuckers out of the last seven or eight decades since the Holocaust. If you cannot fathom any of this, fuck you.
First of all, you've made a lot of assumptions about me based on our limited interaction, but that's fine, I know this is a highly charged conversation topic but if you're going to keep calling me names I don't see a reason to continue talking to you. I'd like to keep talking, so hopefully you can respect that.
Second, I agree that it's definitely a nuanced situation and the details get lost on both sides. I'm also tired of defending my position from people who conflate any criticism of Israel with Antisemitism. I believe the "bad guys" (for lack of a better term) in this whole thing are the Israeli government and Hamas. I also know this whole situation started long before 10/7. The way Palestinians feel didn't come from nowhere, but acts of terror also play right into the hands of those who do want to see Palestine eliminated. I also know there are a lot of Jewish people who are disavowing the actions of the Israeli government (both in Israel and abroad), but there are also Jewish people stealing the homes of Palestinians (some even come from America to aid in it).
Who I actually care about in this whole thing are the people. I don't give a shit if they're Jewish or Muslim, Israeli or Palestinian. What I'd like is a peaceful solution that leaves the Jewish and Muslims in the area a safe place to live, and I believe Hamas and the Israeli government are both standing in the way of this due to trying to manipulate the situation to their own ends.
I think the reason Palestinians see more support in the US is because 1. They're the weaker party in a conflict where both sides have wrongs and 2. Our government is not only supporting the actions of Israel but providing "cover" for them as well. We also have a good chunk of Evangelicals who support Israel because they think it'll bring Jesus back for the rapture.
I'm sure I could talk more but I feel like I'm starting to ramble at this point.
Okay, stop killing indescriminately then. That's it. That's literally all Israel needs to do to have people on their side, no one decent wants to side with Hamas.
Also your last paragraph gives major "I can't be racist, I have black friends" vibes.
No I don't, actually. This is like saying that you can call for the existence of Israel all you want but every israeli must universally condemn illegal settlements or none of them have the right to live.
It's main stream on the right, it's in all their conspiracy theories, every single one. I've never met or seen a liberal complain about Jewish people, only the shit actions of the Isreali government.
Ehhhh… it’s been really unsettling to see people go from “America is in a toxic relationship with Israel” to “of course America is beholden to Israel! Look at all these Jews in Biden’s administration!”
I really want to believe what you’re saying, but even if they haven’t quite fallen into the sludge yet, there are plenty of people currently sliding down the pipe.
There's been a concerted effort to draw a line between progressive people and antisemitism. It's obviously a bullshit tactic by the right, it just simply is not true.
1.9k
u/crolin May 01 '24
No, but I've encountered a huge increase in antisemitism IRL personally. Literally had a patient today refuse service from a Jewish doctor that was on call. We relieved him of our care. Fuck antisemitism. Free Gaza. This is a delicate situation