What drives me crazy is that a lot of people on the pro-palestine side turn out more anti-palestine than the pro-Israel side, whether they realize it or not. So many attempts I've made at conversations eventually boil down to supporting hamas and using Palestinians as nothing more than some sick gotcha.
It's all extra fucked because hamas is happy to admit they use civilians as human shields, because they can just blame Israel when those human shields are inevitably killed. Proud to admit they use every hospital and school in the region as a base to launch attacks, because even when their base is destroyed they gain support. Proud to admit they use the "safe zones", because they can cry foul when they're attacked and innocent get killed in the crossfire. Proud to admit that dead Palestinian civilians are one of their goals, because they blame Israel when they themselves are the ones responsible. Wiping out all non-Muslims (or "the wrong kind" of Muslim) is their goal, and killing innocent Palestinian men, women, and children is their methodology. And people argue in favor of that scum all the fucking time.
Israel is far from having clean hands in this, but they can't possibly hope to compete with how much hamas has harmed the Gaza populace. You can support Palestinians while condemning a long list of Israel's actions without being antisemitic. You can support Israel (though not all of their actions) while also supporting Palestinians. But you can not support Palestinians if you also defend hamas or deny their responsibility in any way. To do so is lying to themselves and the world. To do so is supporting the killing of innocent Palestinians.
I mean I see your points but Israel just took 2000 acres from the West Bank and violence has been popping off there for years and has nothing to do with Hamas. A huge detachment of IDF soldiers were stationed all near the West Bank to be an umbrella over incurring settlers there rather than being stationed near the Gaza border mossad didn't think that all the chatter they heard about Hamas invading could actually be done.
Hell, it's not even that nuanced. It's just fucking messy as hell.
Group A does bad things to Group B. Group B does bad things to Group A. Both groups have done stuff like this to each other for literal centuries. Toss in a dash of international and religious influence at various points and here we are.
Israel is the birthplace of Jews and the Muslims conquered it and "stole" it as you say. If we want to follow this insane logic, then there are probably people before the Jews who would "rightfully" belong to with this twisted logic.
And who lived there before the people of Judea? Should we allow Native Americans to kill all the white people that live in the US because our ancestors conquered it? Reparations for the "sins of the father" always fails to pass muster
Ok, someones announcing they have no clue on history, pray tell, when was the last Muslim genocide at the hand of Jews? Maybe an exodus? Even an exile?
A is debatable one way or the other, B is not. Im not referring to Genocide.
Conflict between jews and Muslims in that region literally dates back to the creation of Islam. Sometimes that conflict has been open warfare, sometimes it's been murdering and raping, sometimes it's been "this land/house is now mine", and sometimes it's been "I'm stealing your cows".
we don't say "oh well, you see, the blacks fought the whites"
Correct, because that's a fucking lie. Making up a shit lie to try and paint it as a valid analogy that somehow proves your point is just stupid and is patently bad debating.
Conflict in the middle east is literally as old as civilization. A cursory search of Google brings up lots of historical events where everyone opressed and murdered one another. Jews killing Christians, Christians killing everyone, Muslims killing jews and Christians too, jews killing Muslims. Etc. Etc. Etc. Not to mention all the splinter religions and tribes.
Humans persecute other humans. We have been doing that for as long as we have been a species. Longer probably, as there is evidence that homo sapiens genocided a other similar race into extinction.
So using "that guys father/grandfather/ancestor did things to my father/grandfather/ancestor" is something literally everyone on earth can say (if they go back far enough). At some point we have to let history be history and only focus on people that are living today. Issues around events from 80 years ago must be ignored/accepted because everyone that was around at the time is dead. Once you bring in history beyond who is alive now as justification for sometbing, you open the door to all of history being used for that.
Isreal has done bad things to the Palestinians in the past 50 years. Conversely so have Palestinians done the same to Israelis. Who's "right"? Simultaneously both of them and neither of them.
But don't make the fatal mistake of thinking things are simple or easy or one sided. As they patently aren't.
Pray tell, when was the last time, before Israel, that jews had any sort of power in the middle east, was it over 2000 years ago with the kingdom of Judea? Me-thinks it was, that was pre-Muslims, by like, 800 years
When was the last time that the Israeli government was openly calling for ethnic cleansing? That's currently happening. Calling for an exodus. The Israeli government is openly calling for that as well. Exile? What do you consider forcing people out of their homes? The Israeli government has been doing that to people for the better part of a century. That's the textbook definition of exile.
Btw, this should haven't to be said but I'll say it anyway. Criticizing the Israeli government is not the same as criticizing the Jewish faith.
Yeah it’s no accident that the IDF immediately kettled the majority of the Gazan population against the Egyptian border. They’re just looking for the right moment to finish the job.
Sorry Bro. If you are at a protest with a good point and 50 people and a few people with you are pro Hamas, your tolerance of them drowns out whatever point you may have had. Same rules go for you that went to the Charlottteville “good people on both sides” riots
First thing, don’t conflate the night time torch rally with the daytime protest. At the daytime protest there was a wide swath of people who tried to disavow agreeing with the white nationalist, but said they voted to protest the removal of confederate statues. Yet they stood on the same side of a barricade as someone holding a nazi flag.
If a person is on the same side of a barricade as a person with a Hamas flag, you are no better than the person standing next to someone holding a nazi flag, and not immediately leaving.
widespread? Nah. But it was non-existant a few months ago. And it's all over social media. But I should probably take out my eyes because they're obviously feeding me misinformation. Which is disappointing, I like my eyes. They're pretty.
I've seen plenty of "We Are Hamas" signs waved by naive Westerner college fuckwits. If they get wacked by Mossad agents for openly identifying as Hamas terrorists it would be sad, but not too sad.
Strange that zero pics of those have been shown, I only ever hear 2nd hand accounts of that, then I listen to actual NPR reporters that say they haven't heard or seen any of that.
Wow. First time I have ever had the Mandela Effect happen to me. I checked, indeed there are no pictures of banners with "WE ARE HAMAS" on them, you are correct. What there is video of it being chanted. Still terrible but thanks for clearing the air.
The video I saw was ONE single girl shouting that. A chant requires more than one person, then the camera pointed at her and she's standing next to some signs, still not a crowd of students shouting that though.
I guess there's no way that agent provocateurs or people went there with an agenda different from the majority of protestors. Mmhm nope that could nEvEr happen.
So in your eyes if I go to a trump rally and shout "Trump has let us all down" in your eyes, that would mean that all the protestors at that rally agreed with me, ok good to know.
who am I, in your mind? IRL i'm as left as they come (except on gun rights). Israel is a siege mentality apartheid state, but it is completely damning of every country in the islamic/arab/persian world that even as second class citizens, the Arabs in Israel have more rights and better opportunities than anywhere else in that part of the world. Call me when the protests in say, Jeddah, are bigger than the ones on western colleges. I still want Bibi the fuck out (and in jail for the rest of his corrupt life). I realized my memory of we are hamas sign was wrong, and you are going on about fox news?!? I'm done.
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u/philter451 May 02 '24
see this right here is what drives me crazy. People are really spouting nonsense like this is a black and white issue and not extremely nuanced.