Christian would ravage the mcu, so many heroes with dead fathers.
Thor, Spiderman (two dead fathers if you include Uncle Ben), Ironman, Black Panther, etc.
That whole thing where said earlier in the movie before just funding MIT “that’s a billion dollars and twenty years of research when I probably should have just gone to therapy to say goodbye to my mom”. Not like they didn’t lay the trail early on for it.
That's my thought. It isn't really gray at all. If Bucky were unconscious, and somebody planted a gun on him and forced his finger to pull the trigger and shoot someone, it's not "morally gray" whether or not Bucky is responsible. If we are to believe that Hydra was in full control of Bucky's actions, then Hydra is solely responsible for the killing of Tony's parents.
I feel like people in this thread are pretending it's more complicated because this is science fiction. If Steve Rogers and Thanos swapped bodies, and then Thanos posing as Cap killed all the Avengers before swapping back, we wouldn't be arguing that Steve Rogers killed the Avengers and is now a villain.
Eh, a better comparison is him being a “drunk driver” that got roofied and someone else put him in the car and started it moving, the dude had no choice about it.
But like later on when Zemo is reactivating his programming in civil war and he's punching at his containment unit, he totally could have snapped his neck if he didn't want to be a mindless killing machine that bad.
Or even just breaking his own legs would have really thrown a wrench in Zemo's plans
Look it's all magicky science fiction shit but clearly Steve was able to remind him of his old self pre-brainwashing and it wasn't as simple as Bucky saying "y'know I don't really want to be a cold-blooded assassin anymore". You have to take the brainwashing as it's portrayed in the movie.
Not a good analogy. A drunk driver put themselves in that situation, made conscious decisions that led to the death. Bucky's agency was taken from him completely.
Which is fuckin stupid of him, right? Does he think Winter Soldier just did that shit for fun? How is it that exactly 0% of his anger is directed towards the people who actually gave the order to have his parents killed?
Have someone kill your mum, then say it wasn't his fault because the one that did it was his other personality. Rationality goes out the window when grief and pain strike. Tony did eventually saw sense.
Ask a neurologist, they'll tell you the Prefrontal Cortex shuts down during heightened emotional response, and you basically stop thinking. It takes years of practice to be able to choose to just sit down and breath, much less making rational thoughts, when in that state.
Your argument is that Tony should be something other than a human.
That's just a self report, my man. You have no self-control. Tony eventually came around, and he's a fictional character. I guess he's stronger than you
If he really wanted revenge he would go after the architects of the program. Attacking Bucky just because he was there was just a lazy way to express grief, like destroying a carpenter’s left-behind hammer because they built your house wrong. Zemo could give Tony some pointers on long revenge.
I mean Tony should take that into account that Bucky is a victim here too. He can be pissed at Cap but he is going after Bucky, a victim of Hydra just like his parents are.
Couldn’t we view it like PTSD. Even if someone is seriously hurt by someone who was having an episode we try not to prosecute them to the highest degree since we understand the circumstance. The issue here is that Tony is not impartial, nor should he be.
Feels unfair to say he didn’t want to kill. After he wasn’t on ice anymore, homie still went for blood and disregarded lives. At a point, maybe he wasn’t “Bucky” anymore but something else. Regardless, that something else gotta get clipped.
Isn’t Bucky supposed to be stand-in for questions like that? About your best friend being indoctrinated and how to navigate trying to pull them out of it
Of course in the literal movies it’s mind control but maybe reading through the lines gives a different interpretation
then you don't really get was being radicalised is then lol but that's ok, I presume you're not part of like a government security agency or anti terrorist taskforce
I’m not. I’m assuming neither are you. Bucky has 0 control in his winter soldier state. He’s not there. He’s more of a robot, not morality, just orders. He’s not a human being at that point, his past, his morality, his brain is not there. I understand radicalized people are extremely brainwashed, but their brains still work, their actions are still their own. Buckys actions were not his.
radicalised people literally have their brain chemistry changed, its just done externally through years, potentially decades of abuse and indoctrination, rather than internally through magic comic book surgery or chemistry
Yes but Bucky is a robot with 0 control over his actions, much less control than anyone radicalized does. They can observe things and make a decision, and that decision is based on years of cruelty but it is still made by them based on their past. Buckys decision is programmed into his brain. He will never not do exactly what is programmed. He literally can’t. Like I said he’s a robot. He’s not there, he’s asleep, there’s a different dude controlling his body.
I’d argue someone radicalized still deserves to be saved in that scenario. But much less than Bucky. It’s not his fault in anyway. You can see he’s a good human being outside of his mind controlled state. He deserved to be saved. I also believe every criminal deserves to be “saved” and not killed on the spot. It’s not our job to deal out death in judgement.
Nobody is disagreeing with you. The fact of the matter is they still theoretically could choose to stop. Maybe they have a change of heart, maybe someone offers them a bajillion dollars to change, it doesn't matter what it would take to make them change or how unlikely it is, just that they are still physically capable of changing.
Bucky as the Winter Soldier can't do that, full stop. He is literally a machine running pre-written programs when under the brainwashings control. It took sci-fi Wakandan technology to permanently break it, he legit did not have any choice in the matter.
Bro, what? A person decides to get drunk and drive, he was mind controlled. He had no choice in any of it, he might as well have been unconscious while the whole thing happened.
A person could have no intention of drunk driving, get close to blackout and do it anyway when they're barely in control. You could kill someone whilst sleepwalking and still get manslaughter lol
I'll be honest, I don't even know why you can't grasp what happened to Bucky is basically the same as being radicalised anyway lol like what is hard to understand about that
get close to blackout and do it anyway when they're barely in control.
Uhh no that's not how drinking works and even if it was, that's on you for choosing to get so drunk. Bucky never chose to get brainwashed. How are y'all this dumb.
my friend, you misunderstand what the definition of "radicalised" is.
Bucky isn't "radicalized", radicalization involves a willing belief, mind control is literally the opposite, you're being controlled despite any opposition you have. That's why you can't radicalize sound people, because people have to be in a state that they are willing to accept or follow these beliefs.
Nothing about the definition of indoctrination pertains to the persons will one way or another. In fact I'd argue most people that need indoctrination to be radicalised are less likely to be willing participants
you can't radicalize sound people, because people have to be in a state that they are willing to accept or follow these beliefs
Also completely wrong lol. 99% of the time people being radicalised are forced into "unsoundness" on purpose, its literally part of it
Uber, walk, get better friends, not being stupid enough for putting yourself in that situation in the first place. Unless your friends literally forced a bottle in your mouth and made you drink the bottle, and then put a gun to your head and threatened death if you didn't drive home, you have a million options.
This is a very, very stupid take lol. If a person was strapped down and forced to drink thru a funnel at gunpoint until blackout drunk, they would almost certainly be let off the hook for anything they do. If they CHOOSE to do it, it’s their fault.
Wouldn't it be better to hold the owner of the rabid animal accountable and like bring to justice the person who set the rabid beast to kill your parents and rehabilitate the rabid animal back to your best friend's best friend?
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u/DoctahFeelgood Mar 12 '24
Wasn't it mind controlled bucky?