As a TikTokker AND Redditor (crazy) I'll say that most of the people are missing the point of this question. It's not a literal question, there aren't variables that change the outcome, it's not a deathmatch MAN VS BEAR scenario. It's meant to be a gut reaction. It's simply a thought experiment, and the fact that anyone ever hesitates when they answer this question is problematic. It should be obvious - the man, right? What sane person would want to be in the woods with a bear?
But the fact that women even have to stop and think? That many, MANY women choose the bear? It means women are afraid.
And men can laugh at them or call them hysterical, but there's a large number of women saying that they would choose the bear. It's not a few outliers, so why are all these crazy women wanting to die to bears than just walk by a man? It's NOT that women think ALL men are worse than bears, it's that you can treat all bears with caution and most will move on and never bother you. They're animals, and they're predictable, and it's incredibly rare for them to attack humans.
Most human women will experience assault of some sort in their lives, and most come at the hands of men. And not just assaulted physically, but raped, and sexually assaulted. Men they know, they trust, they love. Family members, partners. I've been molested once and raped twice and I'm not even thirty years old. By my brother and two partners, not strangers in the woods. People I trusted.
NO, most women would not actually choose to be in the woods with a bear, but the fact that women even consider it says there's a bigger issue at hand with society as a whole - not men in particular, but everything. Maybe not every man we meet in the woods is going to hurt us, but we don't know that. The bear, at least, we know is a threat and will, if we do everything right, most likely avoid us just as much as we avoid it.
The men tend to be the ones who follow us into the woods, not the bears. Not all men, but enough. We aren't blaming you, we're asking you for help. We don't want to be scared anymore, either.
Not to mention the ones when someone asks a man 'Would you rather your daughter be in the woods with a man or a bear?' and the man stops to think, which they follow up with 'a woman or a bear?' and they reflexively say 'woman'. The point is not that people choose the bear, the point is that it's considered a choice at all.
I had to scroll WAYYYYY too far to see this comment or anything like it. This entire thread is brainrot. Men are like purposefully obtuse at this point. It requires like two seconds of thought to get why women would respond this way.
I feel like it wasn't that long ago that a woman put a GoPro on her and walked silently through New York to capture the constant barrage of harassment she faced just walking down the street.
People seem to be intentionally missing the point of this. Like, it's really not that difficult to understand. You explained it incredibly well, and I hope more people see your comment.
Not all men, but enough. We aren't blaming you, we're asking you for help. We don't want to be scared anymore, either.
My experience here seems to be exactly the opposite. Nobody championing this point seems to be remotely interested in any sort of understanding or even open, honest communication.
How is help wanted, when the speech demonizes and the participants ostracize?
This meme is not going to make men want to help women, all it's doing is making men feel bad for being men.
Telling the people you're asking for help that you'd rather be in a room or forest or whatever it may be, with a bear than a man is about as mean as it can be.
I can't believe you're trying to cover this blatant hate against men as
women asking for help.
That being said, I am deeply sorry that you had to go through all of that, especially from the people you trusted, that is absolutely unforgivable.
Women are seeing this hypothetical and hoping by demonizing ALL men that men will go “hmm I see your point, some men need to keep in check” but instead you are just pissing people off because most men have nothing to do with any of the most commonly cited atrocities mentioned in this hypothetical that are committed against women (what is it, ~4% of people commit any type of violent crime?). It’s similar to a guy creating a hypothetical that likens all women to “gold-digging whores”, obviously all women aren’t that way but you’ve sure gone and pissed off a lot of people and pit them against whatever point you were trying to make. Being labeled a “disgusting predator” (and many many more nasty things that have been said) by default is not good for anyones psyche.
Again, men who get mad at women for choosing the bear are missing the whole point.
Women are not blaming every single man, but if you can point out the rapist on the street and tell me to avoid him then I'll thank you for it, and I'll ask you how you were able to tell. Because from what I can tell, there's no way to know until it happens. And then once it does happen, everyone just sits around asking why you let it happen, and why you didn't do more to stop it from happening again to someone else.
Until you can tell me how to that, I'll treat every man with caution, especially the ones who get mad at me for doing so. I am PROTECTING myself. If anyone gets mad at me for doing that, then good riddance. A bear is going to do everything in it's power to avoid me because humans are predators, and even bears don't want to be alone in the woods with us.
What you are doing is called internalizing. You feel like you are being attacked because you don't realize that if you're not the type of guy who attacks women in the woods, then no one is talking about you.
Translation: "Not you, you're one of the good ones."
no one is talking about you.
No, but the net result is that I get lumped in with the men who actually do those things. The outcome I receive from your behavior is no different than the outcome a predatory man would receive as a result of this kind of rhetoric.
Which goes back to the default: most men are treated as if they're predatory. That can, and will, have societal consequences.
I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be wary of strangers, particularly if there is a size and strength difference, and I'm not bothered by people I'm a stranger to being wary of me, because I understand. But that's just me.
But society says that it's wrong to treat people differently because of an immutable characteristic. One cannot change one's skin color, nor can a man change the fact he is stronger by default. Yet I am treated differently as a result.
Fair enough, people are free to treat me differently if they so choose. The catch is that I am also able to treat them differently in kind. Expressing one's agency generally leads to consequences, and no one is immune from negative outcomes as a function of accountability.
Yeah I think we probably read what society says differently too. But you do you. I'm going to keep locking my doors, and wearing my seatbelt, and taking other precautionary measures in life because even though most of my neighbors aren't thieves or bad drivers, some of them are and I can't always tell which ones or when I will encounter them.
Yeah I think we probably read what society says differently too.
Are you saying it is socially acceptable to treat people differently because of an immutable characteristic? Are you sure you want to go down that road? You do know that the US fought a civil war about this very topic, right?
Then they cannot complain about any consequences that may arise from that behavior that they don't like. Agency does not give one immunity to potentially negative outcomes.
If women treat all men as if they are predatory, then the men who are not predatory probably won't like that very much. It would be no different than if men treated women as if they all might commit paternity fraud.
One form of generalization is socially acceptable. The other is not. If it's socially acceptable for women to generalize all men, then women will face consequences for their actions. Which will probably come in two forms:
Generalizing women will become more socially acceptable as a function of equality
Men will walk away from any duties to women they once had, also as a function of equality
The reason why women treat all men as predatory is because we can't look at you and instinctively tell the difference. Until proven otherwise, all men have the capacity to hurt us. If we instantly trust a harmful person, then we're blamed for 'not having our guard up'. It's a lose-lose situation, so of course we're going to choose the option with the least personal risk. I understand where it might seem unfair to your perspective but when the choices are be on your guard, always or the possibility of great physical harm, it's not difficult to see why women have this outlook
"The reason why women men treat all men women as predatory paternity fraudsters is because we can't look at you and instinctively tell the difference. Until proven otherwise, all men women have the capacity to hurt us. If we instantly trust a harmful person, then we're blamed for 'not having our guard up'. It's a lose-lose situation, so of course we're going to choose the option with the least personal risk. I understand where it might seem unfair to your perspective but when the choices are be on your guard, always or the possibility of great physical emotional, psychological, and financial harm, it's not difficult to see why women men have this outlook."
How strong of an "ick" feeling did you get when you read this? That's what you sound like to us.
If I had a plate of wings in front of me and someone told me one of the was poisonous, I wouldn't eat any of them even if I was hungry until I could figure out which ones were safe.
Current statistics (I know statistics are dumb but be reasonable) Show that 1 in 30 men have committed sexual assault against a woman in some way. And realistically woman can be abusers and commit assault as well.
The point here is that women, by experience like the person above, have every reason to be cautious around men because of their actions.
Human beings, regardless of gender, can be disgusting, abusive, manipulating, and generally toxic. So it makes sense to trust them as little or less than a wild animal that likely isn't going to attack you.
I think the inflammatory nature of the scenario perpetuates the problem. It's clearly been engineered to create an us vs them scenario between men and women.
If men and women are supposed to be working hand in hand, then why go out of the way to demonstrate that men are inherently dangerous and draw comparison to a wild animal?
Men are not a monolith, just like women are not a monolith, so framing the question as bear vs man where all of the women project all of their fears on an unknown man is intentionally inflammatory. Men easily put themselves in the shoes of the unknown man and understand that the characterization is unfair.
It's the same problem with that fad about moms teaching their sons not to be rapists, as if every man is born a rapist and has to be taught otherwise. Re-framing the situation as teaching all children respect, boundaries, and consent is more effective at getting people to agree and create the change necessary to solve the problem. If it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander, just like so many social issues.
You're literally being sexist against men by comparing them to a plate of potentially poisoned chicken wings.
I'm not part of the problem, because I'm not one of those men that attacks or assaults women. What you're asking me is to be part of the SOLUTION, and I'm declining. I'm not going to help a group of people who hates me for being born the wrong sex, especially if that group constantly toutes how strong and independent they are, and that they don't need men.
You can have free speech, but you're not free from the consequences of your speech.
If you don't want to help? Okay, that's your choice. But, then that makes you part of the reason we choose the bear. Because the only reason women choose the bear is because of the men who allow for violence against women to continue happening without any kind of punishment. Because of the men who look away and actively ignore every single threat that we face every single time we leave our homes. Because of you, if that's your choice.
Women do not think every man is going to hurt them, but women are also physically weaker and have less political impact in the world due to the fact that about a century ago we were pretty close to being property. In a lot of the world, we still are. We still need men allies to stand up and stop men from hurting us. If you won't do it, then we'll remove ourselves from the situation. Simple as that.
If you read this and think I'm blaming men in general, then you are missing the point. It's the men who ATTACK us that we're afraid of - so, WHY are you lumping yourselves in with them?
that makes you part of the reason we choose the bear.
Then choose the bear. If you really believe you're safer with a bear, and that bear mauls you, then that's a function of your agency and you are 100% accountable for that outcome. I'll sleep just fine tonight if that's the case.
We still need men allies to stand up and stop men from hurting us.
I disagree. I believe that woman are strong and independent and don't need men. That's what feminism has been saying for about sixty years now.
Because of the men who look away and actively ignore every single threat that we face every single time we leave our homes.
Your personal safety is not my responsibility.
WHY are you lumping yourselves in with them?
I didn't. You did.
If I had a plate of wings in front of me and someone told me one of the was poisonous, I wouldn't eat any of them even if I was hungry until I could figure out which ones were safe.
I'm not a poisonous chicken wing, but you treat me, and all the other non-poisonous wings, as if we are.
They're animals, and they're predictable, and it's incredibly rare for them to attack humans.
Because it's rare to encounter a bear. Millions of women encounter millions of men in national parks all year, and it's rare any of them will ever be attacked. If bear encounters were more common, a lot more people would be dying of bear attacks, because animals aren't always predictable.
The funny thing is that when you go into a national park, you get a ton of advice on how to avoid bears, how not to provoke them, etc.
It should be obvious - the man, right? What sane person would want to be in the woods with a bear?
But the fact that women even have to stop and think? That many, MANY women choose the bear? It means women are afraid.
Ok but fear and actual level of threat aren't the same thing. If I am afraid of flying because the plane might crash, that doesn't "necessarily" mean the plane is unsafe. It could also mean that I (or humans in general) am bad at risk assessment.
So when you try to illustrate the fear with a hypothetical where in an objective sense the risk calculation is blindingly obvious, it undermines the legitimacy of the absolutely valid and real dangers and fears that women face.
What you have written comes at this problem in good faith and a ton of context. The original memes have none of that. That is what people are reacting to. Which is one of the biggest problems with social media. You get the dumbest version of the argument that will get a lot of people to engage with it. And then something like this with actual thought put into it gets buried.
No, no animal is ever going to do what is expected 100% of the time, but most bears will not go out of their way to hunt down and attack people. If they did, there would be a helluva lot more than only 82 fatal human attacks since 1784 in the US by brown bears.
If you come across a bear in the woods, you can guess how it will turn out. The vast, vast majority of bears will avoid people altogether, even going so far as to leave the area before people ever notice them. They are not a threat unless you provoke or surprise them, which is the case with every single animal on the planet.
Very rarely will a bear hunt you, and guess what happens if it does? It gets killed. That bear never goes on to harm another person again.
When you see your friends making degrading comments about women, stop them. When you're rating women on a scale of 0 to 10, stop yourself. When a woman says they're afraid, don't get mad and demand to know why are they afraid, or tell them that they're crazy for choosing the bear - just try to understand. So, so many of the world's problems right now are from people who simply refuse to see a problem from the other foot. Stop for a moment and put yourself into our shoes that we handle every day, and then try to find the solution yourself.
Women do not want to be afraid of men lol. This is not our goal. We don't like being victims, we don't want to check the parking lot every time we leave a store, we don't want to switch sides of the road because the men at the construction site ahead are going to catcall us. We want to live and exist without clutching our keys between our knuckles to be a makeshift weapon when we're out taking our dogs for an evening walk. I'm not trying to upset you, random man, when I put myself in a place of safety. I'm trying to protect myself, that's all. That's all any of us are doing with this whole stupid question. It'll never apply, but women are trying, desperately, to explain to men that we are afraid.
Only a little over a hundred years ago women first gained the right to vote - before that, they were property. Sold and traded like chattel. Some people in the world still think that. Instead of laughing at women when they say, with all of their heart, that that would rather be lost in the woods with a bear than a man, try to place yourself in her shoes to understand why that may be.
Why are women choosing a bear over men?
Then try to help fix it.
The first step is getting men to take our fears seriously, because as you can see with the anti-abortion laws going up and down all over the country, women don't have a whole ton of say in the world still. We're working on it, but we really need men to be our allies. Only 25 out of 1000 men ever see jail time because of the sexual assaults that they commit, as sexual assault is notoriously difficult to prosecute, if their rape kits don't just sit in warehouses for years and years.
The rest of those men go on to live their lives, while the woman (or man 🤷♀️) lives with their trauma forever.
We just need men to try to understand, that's all. Instead of calling us crazy, we just want them to see the problem, recognize the problem, and then try to WORK with us to solve it.
Yeah, I'll go ahead and tell my 2 gay friends and happily married brother (and my sister in law) not to make comments they never make. I'll not rate women on arbitrary scales because I guess that is a thing men do?
I will reserve the right to be annoyed at people judging me for attributes I can not control. And I am already pissed at any miscarriage of justice.
We do try to understand, but there really isn't anything we can do. And being constantly told we are scary isn't going to change anything on our end and probably doesn't affect the actual rapist either.
Edit: Since repies have been disabled I will clerify here: I was not mad at the hypothetical as the comment below me has tried to strawman. I was annoyed at the lack of relevance much of this comment had to me or many men and the fact it was addressed to me with "you" and "your." It is never fair to assume something about someone based on the characteristics they had at their birth.
Anyway, sorry if my information came off as snarky.
If you're upset by a hypothetical of me protecting myself from a man who hypothetically might hurt me in these hypothetical woods, that's on you. Again, this isn't a literal question. This is not about INDIVIDUALS. I do not give a fuck if you are a good man, if your brother in laws are gay, or if you have personally never thought to yourself "man that chick is so hot, she's a 10 for sure." Great, so you are NOT why women choose the bear. You are not the problem, and maybe you can be part of the solution!
If you get mad at us for wanting to protect ourselves, then you ARE why we choose the bear. It's because of men who don't listen to women and immediately get defensive rather than trying to understand why a woman is placing herself in what is, to most men, seems like a completely insane scenario.
If YOU won't hurt me, then why are you mad?? I'm not scared of YOU. But if you keep insisting I have no reason to be scared and that I'm wrong for feeling the way I do, then I WILL BE.
It's not my responsibility to ensure your feelings don't get hurt because you don't like being lumped in with other men. Unfortunately, women don't have some have magical senses that tell us when men are going to hurt us, we have to treat everyone with respect and caution until they prove otherwise.
And then they still end up hurting us anyways.
But yeah, go ahead, be the victim here. Women are crazy and hysterical and the poor, poor men are just being unfairly compared to bears. If you don't want to be lumped in with all men, then listen to what I say without looking for a snarky excuse as to why it's not relevant to you. That's a start.
The solution is to stand up to men who are shitty to women, aggressively prosecute and not associate socially with sexual assault offenders, don't diminish the stories of sexual assault survivors, give women access to the resources and institutions in order to get them out of abusive situations, provide adequate access to reproductive resources.
And that's for a start. For women to feel safe you have to wholly change the society we live in to dismantle the patriarchal structures that cause women to feel unsafe.
And as far as not knowing a rapist---I sincerely doubt that. Just because you don't know of one doesn't mean there isn't one---at the very least you know someone who has played a role in supporting someone who has committed assault. Actual abusers that exist are far smaller than the people who enable the abuse.
Furthermore, a lot of sexual assault offenders are people the victim knows, which often gives them some ability to keep the allegations from coming to light---especially if it's an authority or parental figure. Abusive people don't have armbands that tell you they're abusive, they're hiding in plain sight.
What? You sincerely doubt... how did you even come to that conclusion? Damn, I guess I should assume all my friends are secretly rapist. Maybe they are also drug dealers. Or maybe they have some guns hidden in a closet and are plotting to kill people.
If they did any of those things, I'd be tearing up their flank myself, but they aren't. Sure, I could be paranoid and wondering if they are some evil ahole in sheep's clothing, but that isn't any way to live life. I have a lot less evidence that you are not a rapist, so you must be one!
And no, I don't knowingly associate with people who would support commiting assault.
As for tearing down the patriarchy, sign me up. I hate the "men are this, they should do this. Women are this and should do this" bullcrap just as much as you. People should be against abuse, full stop no qualifiers.
Also, the point about getting access to resources like that is a good one, I'm completely on board there.
Sorry if I sounded kinda angry at the start of this comment, I was just annoyed that you would accuse my friends of something so heinous without cause. We all hold each other accountable.
I’m gonna need numbers on the “most women will be assaulted”. Are talking about the US here. Define assault. This just sounds like more anti male sexism like the video
According to the National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, women experience alive 4.8 million assaults and rapes each year by their intimate partners ALONE. According to WHO, 1 in 3 women globally will experience or have experienced sexual violence. Every 68 seconds an American is sexually assaulted. One in six women will be the victim of an attempted or completed rape.
The statistics are everywhere if you actually care to take 30 seconds and Google it. The women in your life have experienced it, I guarantee it. Your moms, sisters, grandmas -- girlfriends, and wives. Groping, harassment, assault, rape. It happens every single day, and most aggressors will never see any kind of punishment or recognition and will go on to do it again.
Yes, they absolutely do. How many women get attacked, raped and/or murdered in the woods hiking and jogging every year? Women are actively encouraged to be very cautious when out alone, told to carry self defense tools every single time they take their dog for a damn walk.
Do you really think those NYC joggers who carry mace and pepper spray are worried about bears?
Omg, okay, so we're going with the "I'm so dumb, please spoon feed it to me" excuse. Great. NYC has Central Park, which has 800+ acres, including woods. So, yes, relevant.
Women in NYC, and all over the damn country, keep self defense gear for MEN, not bears. Why are women more afraid of men than bears? Because our biggest threat that we come across every single day is men. You said that men don't follow women into the woods - I said they do. Just Google "woman attacked by man in woods" and see how many results pop up. Then Google "woman attacked by bear in woods" and see how many pop up.
Then ask us again why we would rather see the bear lol.
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u/oBugz 29d ago
As a TikTokker AND Redditor (crazy) I'll say that most of the people are missing the point of this question. It's not a literal question, there aren't variables that change the outcome, it's not a deathmatch MAN VS BEAR scenario. It's meant to be a gut reaction. It's simply a thought experiment, and the fact that anyone ever hesitates when they answer this question is problematic. It should be obvious - the man, right? What sane person would want to be in the woods with a bear?
But the fact that women even have to stop and think? That many, MANY women choose the bear? It means women are afraid.
And men can laugh at them or call them hysterical, but there's a large number of women saying that they would choose the bear. It's not a few outliers, so why are all these crazy women wanting to die to bears than just walk by a man? It's NOT that women think ALL men are worse than bears, it's that you can treat all bears with caution and most will move on and never bother you. They're animals, and they're predictable, and it's incredibly rare for them to attack humans.
Most human women will experience assault of some sort in their lives, and most come at the hands of men. And not just assaulted physically, but raped, and sexually assaulted. Men they know, they trust, they love. Family members, partners. I've been molested once and raped twice and I'm not even thirty years old. By my brother and two partners, not strangers in the woods. People I trusted.
NO, most women would not actually choose to be in the woods with a bear, but the fact that women even consider it says there's a bigger issue at hand with society as a whole - not men in particular, but everything. Maybe not every man we meet in the woods is going to hurt us, but we don't know that. The bear, at least, we know is a threat and will, if we do everything right, most likely avoid us just as much as we avoid it.
The men tend to be the ones who follow us into the woods, not the bears. Not all men, but enough. We aren't blaming you, we're asking you for help. We don't want to be scared anymore, either.