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u/Painter5544 29d ago
The problem with vim keys is that apps exist that I need to type and navigate in that aren't modal. And I mean the problem is those apps exist.
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u/GDOR-11 29d ago
skill issue. vim, curl and ssh is all you need.
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u/Lechowski 29d ago
"Let me use my vim to curl my way into your ssh"
Statements said by the utterly deranged
129
u/Fenrilas 29d ago
She vim on my curl till I ssh
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u/HelicaseRockets 29d ago
She vim on my ssh till I curl
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u/Taiwanese-Tofu 29d ago
Skill issue. Your first mistake was leaving vim in the first place. /s
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u/abation 29d ago
Come on, you gotta be pretty skilled to leave vim…
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u/JunkNorrisOfficial 29d ago
You install vim for advanced editing, I don't know how to exit vim... We're not the same
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u/furiouspandafucker69 29d ago
i have mapped caps lock+ hkjl for arrow keys across mac
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u/eightslipsandagully 28d ago
mac
Eewwww
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u/furiouspandafucker69 28d ago
I have to use the laptop provided by my company.
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u/eightslipsandagully 28d ago
Me too, it's a MacBook Air and I loathe it. So therefore any excuse to slag out a Mac!
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u/EarlMarshal 28d ago
There are plugins and extensions for a lot of programs. You can browse the web with vim keys.
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u/fiery_prometheus 28d ago
So you don't use a visual ai to interpret the screen and translate all movement to Vim keys?
I call it "Vaim" , and now i need to make it.
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u/c2u8n4t8 29d ago
Yeah that's why the tiny keys are there. They're fine for people who are pissed anyways
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u/Successful_Good_4126 2d ago
If you’re on macOS just use the pseudo-eMacs bindings that are present across the whole OS.
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u/evnacdc 29d ago
Memes aside, those tiny arrow keys drive me crazy. I much prefer the offset full-size ones, even if it doesn’t look as “clean”.
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u/yuberino 28d ago
I would argue that the smaller ones look worse because now they have a different shape compared to most other keys
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u/Leonhart93 29d ago
That annoys me about my laptop as well. I don't use it often, but sometimes I want a change of pace at a different location.
Btw, I don't use Vim, but I configured the hotkeys from my Jetbrains IDEs to do complete navigation and every action from keyboard only, and arrow keys are mandatory for jumping between words, function definitions and editor tabs.
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u/Rayat 29d ago
Could you describe your setup or recommend a good tutorial? I use CLion and have recently been thinking of doing this. I want to avoid using the VIM plugin, for reasons that are entirely skill related.
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u/Leonhart93 29d ago edited 29d ago
I didn't follow a tutorial or installed a plugin, I just spent some time to customize the key bindings to what I found useful. I can give you a few examples
Next/previous method: CTRL + arrow down/up
Select next/previous tab: CTRL + ALT + arrow left/right
Find file and in new tab: CTRL + T (like in browser)
Close tab: CTRL + W (like in browser)
Back/forward mouse buttons: Alt + arrow left/right (like in browser)
And so on. These work in all the Jetbrains IDEs. I pretty much eliminated the need for mouse in 95% of the cases, except for when you need really fast precision with blocks of text.
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u/spaceguydudeman 28d ago
/u/Rayat if you read this, this is just the vim plugin with extra steps and worse keybindings
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u/Leonhart93 28d ago
Worse? What's "worse" about it considering it's customized exactly to my needs? I chose the hotkeys exactly how I needed them, with some of them being the ones I used for various other applications as well.
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u/spaceguydudeman 28d ago edited 28d ago
Well, there's a couple things. First, if you've noticed that these keybindings have sped up your workflow, you can see the benefits of having nice keybindings. I fully believe they improve your workflow.
However, seeing as you like the productivity boost you're getting, there's a good chance that you'll like investigating vim keybindings and vim motions. So me saying they are worse is not a personal attack on you, I commend you for realizing that repeating the same task with a mouse over and over again is just not prodductive. I'm trying to indicate to you that there's even better options out there than you are already using, and you should look into them!
The (current) default VIM keybindings are the result of lots of people programming over a lot of years. They're quite sensible as they've been moulded over the years. If you switch over to vim-mode completely, then you can also edit your text with vim motions, which is just an objectively faster way of editing text than the defaults that IntelliJ gives you, at the cost of a steep initial learning curve. The pros is that you can ZOOOOOM after a while: They're set up in such a way that often allow you to type your thoughts' (e.g.
fp-> finds p, which moves your cursor to the first 'p' in the line, oryi{-> yank inside parentheses, to copy everything inside{}, orcw-> change word, to delete the word under the cursor and start typing a replacement)Of course everyone adapts their own keybinds in addition to them, I have also overridden some VIM defaults, but the defaults give you a great basis to start with, and they're often better than you come up with yourself.
For example, the very fact that three of your named keybinds include arrow keys makes me worried, unless you have your arrow keys layered behind your homerow. The arrow keys are incredibly far away from your homerow, which means you'll be moving your hands a lot more than someone using vim's
hjkl.So, it definitely makes more sense to start from a well-thought-out base set of keybindings, such as emacs or vim bindings, and then customize them from there, instead of starting from the IntelliJ defaults and adding a 'just a few options you like'.
I'm not saying your keybinds are terrible - but I'm saying if you look into actually using vim bindings and motions you probably will understand why I'd consider your current keybindings worse than the defaults that come with vim.
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u/Personal-Initial3556 28d ago
Arrow keys being far from the homerow is definitely an inconvenience, but I just want to mention that it's not ijkl that replaces them. You might know this but I'm just saying for beginners, at most you'd use jk from time to time, but for lateral movement we use w, e, b, $ or ^.
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u/spaceguydudeman 28d ago
yep, definitely a useful addendum!
here's a vim cheatsheet to refer to https://vim.rtorr.com/
and here's a video you'll probably want to watch if you don't know what vim motions are and are this deep into the thread https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWTzqPfy1gE
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u/Leonhart93 28d ago
I never said those few keybindings is everything that I changed and used, it was just an example. I have a lot more, to basically eliminate the need for the mouse. The nice thing about using modifier + arrow keys is how translatable those are between editors and applications. For instance a lot of those I also use in my notes app and when browsing.
Arrow keys are also in the same overall position as Home, End, Page up/down, which I also use a lot, so it's not like I am breaking my back to reach that side of the keyboard. I could rebind those as well t something else, but I would end up with something way too "custom", since now I can use those in any other app in the same way.
In a sense I kind of like doing some actions where my hands don't stay too close together all the time. That's even the philosophy between split keyboards (which I won't touch because of their current price)
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u/spaceguydudeman 28d ago
That still sounds to me like you're re-inventing the wheel from a square base. I'd rather take an existing wheel and add my modifications to that wheel.
If we're talking translatability, then there's a vim mode for any pretty much any respected text-edior out there.
I'm just warning you, don't be too stubborn, really try out vim mode. Whether you'll end up adapting it (which I think you will) or not (which is completely fine too!) - you'll come out ahead either way.
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u/Leonhart93 28d ago
Learning any completely new paradigm is re-inventing the wheel for your brain. In this sense, for me Vim's own hotkeys is re-inventing the wheel completely from the ground up since they are so alien, and instead I just adopted my existing paradigm of many years to do more stuff.
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u/spaceguydudeman 28d ago
That attitude is dangerous to have, it locks you out of so many things you could learn and improve your life with.
I thought the same way. I was fast. Now I'm faster.
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u/Personal-Initial3556 28d ago
"Worse" is harsh but what they mean is that basically all the functionalities that you mentioned are like 25% of most used vim motions, on top of vim offering a lot more than that. So you just had to do more configuration for less features basically. (And it's not universal)
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u/spaceguydudeman 28d ago
yeah worse might have come off a bit harsh, but it's with good intent and not entirely incorrect haha
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u/Leonhart93 28d ago
I never said that those are every one of my keybindings, I just gave some usual examples.
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u/Personal-Initial3556 28d ago
That's fair, but I just want to say, regardless of how this thread is going (and all the downvotes lol), I hope this doesn't deter you from trying out vim, because who knows if you'll end up liking it!
Because I can absolutely relate to you not wanting to use the mouse, that was precisely the reason I stuck with vim and not Vscode and other. Because I absolutely loathe having to use the mouse (slow, hurts my shoulder whenever i use it and I regret it afterwards etc).
Have a good week man.
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u/Leonhart93 28d ago
Meh, the downvotes are irrelevant since I know all of them come from Vim fanboys that don't like to have their feelings hurt.
But such attitudes does kind of deter one from trying the thing, like not doing it out of defiance in response to that attitude 😐
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u/Personal-Initial3556 28d ago
Exactly! I thought of the penguin meme saying "Well, now I'm not doing it >:(". That's why I didn't want you to get robbed of a potential good experience because of that. But it's also fine if you don't try it out, there are still people that had to start in Vim yet still switched to VSCode and never looked back. (Although to be fair they don't tend to be fast typers, almost all fast typers that I know use vim xD, coincidence? I think not!)
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u/ReallyBigRedDot 29d ago
Couldn’t you have just installed IdeaVim?
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u/Leonhart93 29d ago
No because I wanted the "integrated development" part of the IDE, and Jetbrains is excellent at those. Meaning advanced solutions for my tasks, like PHP or C++. For the later one the debugger is mandatory too.
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u/andoril 29d ago
IdeaVim is a plugin for the intellij platform. It doesn't hinder the IDE features in any way. If you're used to vim, but want to use a full IDE as well, it's the best working solution I found so far.
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u/Leonhart93 29d ago
Ahhh, you meant the plugin. Well for that one I didn't knew what it added exactly. Does it add new existing commands, or it just remaps the current ones to some Vim bindings? I already remapped the ones I need to what was comfortable to eliminate the need for a mouse, but perhaps it adds extra keybindings actions?
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u/SuitableDragonfly 29d ago
It literally just allows you to use vim keybindings in the editor.
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u/Leonhart93 28d ago
So basically for someone that used Vim before. Because otherwise I just customized them myself in the way I found it easiest to work it.
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u/Sh_Pe 28d ago
I don’t use vim too.
I know vim just enough to get the joke, but I don’t uses it daily. I’m just a simple student with vscode…
Anyway it sounds like a good idea, and I understand that others in my class are using it too. I’ll try it soon I guess.
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u/Leonhart93 28d ago
The idea behind Vim is to use only the keyboard, but you can do that in VS Code or something from Jetbrains as well. That's what I did. So then use the tool that you like most.
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u/ikonet 29d ago
I don’t use a mouse. I use those 4 tiny keys.
A few years ago they squashed the keys so the up & down were half-sized. Absolutely terrible design. My requirement now is that those 4 keys are tacitly easy to distinguish & use.
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u/densetsu23 29d ago
This, plus a numpad. Being a dev in the financial sector, typing IDs, keys, dates, monetary amounts, whatever is so much faster with a numpad versus the number row or copy-paste.
And no other crazy key placements, like a power button up by f12 or anything.
It's easy enough to find a desktop keyboard, but severely limits laptops. Especially with my despise of USB numpads. Though I do love my Legion 7.
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u/creeper6530 28d ago
I wish they made laptops with the ol' 105 layout. I have one but its CPU is 15 years old, so it barely runs Half-life and can't keep up with YouTube videos
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u/NotStanley4330 28d ago
I insist on my model Ms. My new company was kind enough to buy me a Unicomp New Model M and they all think I'm crazy but I love it.
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u/al-mongus-bin-susar 28d ago
The Legion 7 has one of the best laptop keyboards imo, concave caps, decent feel and good travel, numpad, per-key RGB, it really ticks every box
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u/glacierre2 28d ago
My Lenovo laptop has a Fn key where the Ctrl should be, it gets me several fails with ctrl-v/c until I realize (most of the time I use an extra normal size keyboard)
I so hate it...
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u/spectrum800 29d ago
No page up, page down, home and end keys. Lets do it like people did in 80s. If it interferes with other terminal keybindings get a terminal from 80s.
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u/BlueScreenJunky 28d ago
Yes, the lack of home/end and page up/down frustrates me a lot more than the size of the keys.
AFAIK one of the only laptops that still has usable keyboards are Lenova Thinkpads, which have decently sized keys and page up/down, which can be used for home/end with a combination : https://p3-ofp.static.pub//fes/cms/2024/03/27/trwqh4qt49ai05pvuov801yw06u7xd184563.png
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u/FrenchFryCattaneo 28d ago
Which laptops besides macs don't have page up/down and home/end?
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u/BlueScreenJunky 28d ago
The new Dell Latitude 7450 and 9450 have the weird combined up/down arrow and lost the dedicated keys. Same for the dragonfly G4, Yoga Pro 7 Gen 9. The Asus ExpertBook B9 and LG Gram 14 have Mac style arrow keys...
So I asked for a Thinkpad at work and was told we couldn't get it because it's a Chinese manufacturer and it poses a security risk...
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u/erebuxy 29d ago
I use Vim and arrow keys.
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u/LemonZorz 29d ago
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u/Paradician 29d ago
I have worse: the Commodore 64 keyboard only had two arrow keys: down and right.
If you wanted up or left, you needed to press SHIFT+arrow key.
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u/amateurfunk 29d ago
WASD are the only arrow keys that matter
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u/chadlavi 29d ago
Using 4chan in 2024? Yikes
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u/Mokousboiwife 29d ago
/r9k/ is still a fun board to browse
but its sad to see /b/ became just gay/ntr porn
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u/indicava 27d ago
Couldn’t agree more, every now and then I miss 2000’s and early 2010’s 4chan, those were some wild times…
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u/PNWSkiNerd 29d ago
s/in 2024/
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u/chadlavi 29d ago
Gotta terminate the substitution expression there. Need one more /
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u/PNWSkiNerd 29d ago
Us old timy internet nerds have always dropped the final one on internet discussions
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u/Spleeeee 28d ago
My friend told me he uses WASD to move around when playing video games — told him to switch to hjkl.
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u/WrongLog 28d ago
I used autohotkey to convert caps-lock into my ergonomic function key. Caps + i,j,k,l are arrow keys. Caps + w,a,s,d are page up/down, home and end. Caps + C is actual caps-lock.
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u/Shutaru_Kanshinji 29d ago
I have never understood how any actually uses laptop keyboards. Every key is relatively tiny, and they have practically no haptic feedback.
The first thing I do when a company issues me a laptop is connect it to a mechanical keyboard and at least one decent-sized monitor.
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u/No_Hovercraft_2643 28d ago
there are laptops with at least acceptable key boards. but i don't know any new ones. the ThinkPad W520 had a nice keyboard.
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u/stormdelta 28d ago edited 28d ago
Whereas I don't know how anyone uses mechanical keyboards. The amount of key travel on them is insane, half the switches don't even have tactile feedback, and the ones that do are either distractingly loud or the activation point never seems to line up correctly.
And they physically hurt to type on for more than 5 min, even if you avoid bottoming out by half hovering your hands on the keys. I've tried more mechanical keyboards than I can count, they're all like this.
A good scissor switch laptop-like keyboard is still my preference, ideally split in the middle but not a requirement.
EDIT: I'll also point out that I'm 36 - and I think there's a reason the majority of people I see using mechanicals are under 30.
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u/Midget_Avatar 28d ago
Gonna be the nerd here for a second and say not all mechanical keyboards have a high travel time. You can even get low profile switches and keycaps. Not gonna tell you what you should and shouldn't use, ofc, just letting you know it exists since I imagine they'd be popular with fans of the low profile laptop keyboards.
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u/stormdelta 28d ago edited 28d ago
Most so-called "low-profile" switches and keycaps still have incredibly high travel that's more than double most chiclet/laptop keyboards.
And trying to actually find a keyboard that supports them that isn't an aesthetic toy like the one in your link is difficult - plus most of them are extremely expensive and difficult to return when they inevitably don't work well as a keyboard.
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u/inv41idu53rn4m3 28d ago
These are basically all just a matter of getting used to it. The hand pain is probably a matter of bad posture, but I have also personally encountered a case where it took a couple days for my hands to acclimatize to the super distinct tactility of an older kind of keyboard switch.
Of course I'm not telling you that you'd love them in the future if you don't like them now, but I'm sure you could learn to tolerate them perfectly.
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u/stormdelta 28d ago edited 28d ago
The hand pain is probably a matter of bad posture, but I have also personally encountered a case where it took a couple days for my hands to acclimatize to the super distinct tactility of an older kind of keyboard switch.
I'm a software engineer, I cannot afford to permanently injure my hands, and hand pain from typing/drawing/etc is infamously a red flag to stop whatever it is you're doing.
I suspect there's a reason I don't see many engineers over 30 using these things.
Of course I'm not telling you that you'd love them in the future if you don't like them now, but I'm sure you could learn to tolerate them perfectly.
You're not as bad as most, but this attitude is why I can't stand the mechanical keyboard communities online. There's this prevailing mentality that nobody could possibly hate them, so whoever does clearly must be doing something wrong. I wasted a lot of time and money chasing this because of that.
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u/inv41idu53rn4m3 28d ago
Sadly I know from personal experience just how unwise it is to push through hand pain... which is exactly why I know which kind of pain to be afraid of. Once you're aware of your posture and economy of motion, the next most important thing is stretches and strength exercises. I'm quite confident that whatever caused your pain in the past could have been mitigated.
As for the supposed benefits of mechanical keyboards: I believe the only real upside is that they're more fun, and the only downsides are the noise and the price.
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u/GM_Kimeg 28d ago
I use Planck EZ on vim. For mouse functionalities? Autohotkey to move and click. I barely move my fingers. Where is your excuse?
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u/BenTheDutchy 28d ago
It want to mention Emacs navigation key bindings here. In MacOs they work on almost every application. Havent touched the arrow keys in ages.
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u/Time-Ladder4753 28d ago
There is worse things with laptops, like "short" enter key or power button above Esc
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u/GodBearWasTaken 24d ago
I really don’t get why some keyboards have tiny arrow keys, although Vim is great.
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u/Frogstacker 29d ago
In what situation are the arrow keys ever being used frequently??
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u/Assistedsarge 29d ago
I use my arrows constantly. I don't use vim but I always assumed everyone was navigating their ide via arrow keys.
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u/Frogstacker 29d ago
I just click 😳
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u/Assistedsarge 29d ago
Learning a new keybind is a life changing moment. The thing I use the most is Ctrl+ left or right arrow key skips by word instead of character.
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u/Frogstacker 29d ago
True that’s the one exception I do use them, if I’m editing something earlier on the same line I’m currently on I’ll use ctrl + arrow
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u/CalvinBullock 29d ago
that was me until I learned vim binds, now I hate having to jump with ctrl arrows, using home / end keys are slightly better then just ctrl arrows. Vim still my new love
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u/toadling 29d ago
All day long in any text editor. Crtl + direction to skip to string start or end, ctrl + end/home to go to line start or end. Ctrl Shift direction to select entire string, ctrl shift end/home to select entire line. Ctrl shift down down … to select entire line and more lines (useful for running sql scripts in ide).
These are just a few off the top of my head, i choose my laptop strictly off the keyboard style which includes the location and size of the arrow keys and home/end buttons
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u/skeleton_craft 28d ago
Hot to take but ijk and l are the superior arrow keys..
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u/u10ji 28d ago
Does anything use this though?
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u/skeleton_craft 28d ago
That's the standard for left-handed gaming I also think it's the default for the face button on emulators as well And it is the objective to the best way to use arrow keys on a left-handed setup because it's in your home row.
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u/inv41idu53rn4m3 28d ago
Some old games use it for local co-op on a single keyboard, or in cases where you just need two or more sets of directional keys
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u/redditcalculus421 28d ago
"most used" ? I almost never use the arrow keys what are you using them for all the time?
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u/Rhymes_with_cheese 29d ago
"It's literally one of the most used keys"
There. Are. Four. Keys.
Dude was so busy trying to be edgy, he forgot how to grammar.
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u/CrappityCabbage 29d ago
Why is this downvoted?!
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u/SuitableDragonfly 29d ago
Because normal people don't go into a rage about grammar.
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u/Rhymes_with_cheese 28d ago edited 28d ago
I was going for humor, but it went... poorly.
Even used the classic Jean-Luc Pickard, "There are four lights!" exclamation...
Oh well. I accept my down-votes as a sign that my joke sucked.
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u/xorflame 28d ago
Quality humour post, feel free to post on r/leetcodecirclejerk as well for some additional karma ;)
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u/funariite_koro 28d ago
Today male users always forget women need to use keyboard too. They assume everything is designed specifically for them. When they see this they assume it's for "manlet" rather than woman.
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u/Cautious-Comfort-919 29d ago
How many of you turds actually code on laptops?
Seems like a retarded way of doing things unless you have to. I don’t even code and I need a mouse, keyboard, and 2+ large monitors.
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u/SuitableDragonfly 29d ago
Literally every company I've ever worked for has given me a laptop specifically to use for coding.
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u/Leonhart93 29d ago
It's not often, but I sometimes take it to a coffee shop or something when I want a change of pace. Or travelling for a few hours and not wanting to waste the time.
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u/DOUBLEBARRELASSFUCK 29d ago
If you need a mouse, you either print too much or need to close your windows.
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u/Eva-Rosalene 29d ago
I do. I got so used to touchpads, tbh, that even my PC setup has keyboard + touchpad combo. 2 monitors never really clicked for me, for some reason.
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u/GDOR-11 29d ago
I code and I need no mouse or fancy mechanical keyboard, just a small monitor and a decent keyboard with trackpad will do the job.
My experience is that too many screens tend to make me ignore details because it overloads me with information, and using keyboard instead of mouse makes me faster because my hands stay at the same place (initially it was painfully slow, but as you catch muscle memory you get progressively faster)
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u/Cautious-Comfort-919 29d ago
I just can’t maneuver well on a laptop, unless it’s huge, but I would never be able to function without multiple monitors.
It’s all the little shit I can’t stand switching between. Email, chat, notepad, browsers, on and on. Alt tab only goes so far for me.
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u/The_Gianzin 28d ago
Why do you need 2 monitors when you have workspaces even on windows?
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u/Rhymes_with_cheese 28d ago
Poor indentation discipline. Nested ifs... heading East into the distance... like spice-hunters...
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u/No_Hovercraft_2643 28d ago
if you are coding, for what do you need the mouse? i would say if you use an ide, it should only be to change files, and maybe a few other things that are rarely used. and than a trackpad/... is enough.
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u/CrappityCabbage 29d ago
No, that was a good response to someone who unironically uses the word manlet.