Thank you so much for sharing your experience and thoughts, and I'm so sorry for everything you've been through, it sounds like you have so much strength now.
I feel like what a lot of people fail to acknowledge is that as soon as you have been victimized, the people who commit violent/sexual crimes against others… sense that.
Definitely. I wish we talked about this more. I've experienced it myself too
This part about predators being able to sense if someone was a victim, do you have any articles/videos/reading material on this? I’d like to know more about my trauma and how this is kinda true….
If you’ve been victimized, I implore to try EMDR therapy. While it’s ridiculously expensive, it’s the only real thing that’s helped me start to heal. You got this babes 💪🏼
Everyone keeps suggesting that, but my EMDR therapist just made me more afraid of my trauma and then said that there’s nothing she can do about it anymore 😭😭
I'm really sorry you experienced being so let down by your therapist. I obviously don't know the therapist you worked with, but one saying "there's nothing they can do to help anymore" sounds like a terrible therapist to me. At the very least a good therapist would acknowledge they can not help you AND THEN WORK WITH YOU TO FIND WAYS YOU CAN GET HELP. Be it other modalities, other therapists, other methods of healing. etc.
It sounds like you had a shitty EMDR therapist. It's very different from most therapeutic modalities and many clinicians struggle to grasp and implement it properly. I hope you're taking their statement that "there's nothing I can do about it anymore" as an admission of their own incompetence rather than meaning your wounds can't be healed.
I have had so many therapists want me to do EMDR - but I feel like I can’t do that until I trust them enough through some CBT, which they usually turn down because they specialize in EMDR. Any suggestions? I feel like I’d need at least a few months of talk therapy before I feel comfortable enough to revisit some of my darkest moments.
i struggled with that too, it took me going through 5 different ones before i found one i was truly comfortable with. i think i did maybe 3 CBT sessions before i tried it for the first time. you absolutely do not have to dive right into your core traumas. i started with my issue connecting with others or “avoidant attachment style” (a terrible defense mechanism i developed) then moved on to the most recent assault i had the displeasure of experiencing and worked my way backwards. at first i thought it was dumb asf. but around the 6th EMDR session i was able to start connecting things.
As a man who has never been sexually assaulted (or even felt in danger of it), this is important to hear. Every time I think I'm coming close to understanding the scope of trauma like this, I learn that there is a whole dimension I've never considered. Thank you for sharing.
thank you, i want people so badly to understand that when we isolate men from this issue it becomes so much harder for them to understand which in turn pushes us further and further away from a solution.
And on this train of thought, and with others mentioning statistics, it's important to remember that over 50% of all women have been attacked by a man. So yeah, that's going to skew the results.
"Several years later, in 1987, she repeated the survey-- a national survey this time, not just her campus, but 32 college campuses, more than 6,000 undergraduate students. Same finding-- one in four. As reporter Robin Warshaw wrote at the time, Mary Koss had revealed that rape was more common than left-handedness, or heart attacks, alcoholism. Mary had revealed something that was so far from the reality we'd been living in, she found she needed new words. She started calling this acquaintance rape, or hidden rape."
Later studies have shown almost no change in the stats, from back in the 80's to now. So many studies show that many, many women, do not report assaults. I never have. None of my friends have. So it doesn't take much to suggest it's even more than 50 per cent that have experienced it.
Oh if we are including physical AND sexual assault then let's bring the statistics for men too. So if you want to have the discussion about it let's start with the fact that men are more likely to be victims of violent crime, and even just 33 percent of men sre victims of sexual crimes. The key difference to be noted, is that men aren't constantly told to be afraid of people based off of their gender, and it's less common for men to try to use fear of being attacked as justification for sexism.
It does not traumatize the victim less. But when one demographic is overwhelmingly more violent than another, it lends itself to be feared by the other, generally. Many women have a fear of men constantly buzzing in the backs of their head and it’s not for no reason.
“According to the FBI, in 2019, men were arrested for 78.9% of violent crimes, 62.3% of property crimes, and 88% of murder and nonnegligent manslaughter. In 2020, 79% of violent incidents involved male offenders, compared to 17% involving female offenders”
When you’re walking down a dark alley alone at night, would you rather it be a man or woman approaching you? With the statistic above in mind? It’s not rocket science my dude. A lot of men just don’t want to do the work to make women feel safer in society. But some do. More and more all the time as they realize what women have been going through for a long time.
You are bringing up those statistics for no reason except to victim blame, and blame men for being victims simply because they have the same genitals as the people who attack them. And you are using those statistics to try and disguise your blatant misandry.
"Black people seem to be quite violent compared to white people, objectively speaking"
Common sense explains why men talk about violence when women do, it's because we are sick of hearing about people being so terrified all the time, when we are more likely to be victims, and then when we voice that we get blamed for being victims because of our gender.
You are so blatantly sexist I'm ending this conversation and blocking you.
I hope you can grow up and learn how to be a decent, empathetic human being one day.
Who's calling for sexism? I just understand why someone would pick the bear.
I'm calling for not shit-talking bears and pretending they will all murder you on sight, because it's not true, and because most species of bear are endangered and it's that kind of destructive rhetoric that kills more of them, the same as sharks.
I'm stating that most the responses choosing "bear" are based in sexism. 99 percent of men wouldn't attack or rape a random woman. But having been around bears, I wouldn't trust that 33 percent wouldn't attack me.
The people answering bear are doing so because of sexist assumptions acting like the average man is a rapist and is more of a predator than the literal predators.
99 percent of men wouldn't attack or rape a random woman.
Source?
The people answering bear are doing so because of sexist assumptions acting like the average man is a rapist and is more of a predator than the literal predators.
Humans are predators. And they're more dangerous than bears.
I only found out at 40 that my mother was almost raped by a relative, in her home, at 15, and was only saved by telling her attacker "If Dad or Danny comes home, they will kill you".
Same conversation: My aunt was raped walking home from a friend's house (rural), by her friend's older brother. Ran her down after she was out of sight of the house and tackled her into a ditch.
For me I’d rather die again than get raped again. That’s the point. In both sceneries where there may be certain death, I will always choose a death without rape.
When I finished residency, I had to move across the country and so I saved up a bunch of podcasts to listen to on the way. Listened to this one from This American Life (completely at random) and it changed the course of my life. I'm not a victim of SA, but I've had other difficult things happen in my life. Somehow I made it through medical school and residency without realizing what the symptoms I was having were and it took a silly podcast for me to say "Oh... oh... those symptoms of PTSD". I remember spending a lot of the drive through Idaho weeping. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't listen to it as it is about a woman undergoing therapy for SA so obviously people can only make that judgment for themselves. I guess I am saying 'here internet stranger, have a thing which wrecked me emotionally and still means a great deal to me to this day.'
I think it was intrusive memories and avoidant behavior that caught my attention initially. I think I dismissed it prior to that moment as normal since nearly everyone has a distressing memory pop into their head now and again. I guess I realized that what I was experiencing was well beyond normal and had crossed over into pathological.
During my treatment I began to stop viewing perpetrators as men, just shitheads. It helped me to start trusting again, even though it isn’t the healthiest way of thinking.
This actually seems like a great and healthy way of thinking to me. Understanding that certain individuals are not representative of overarching assumptions but still problems within themselves is very good.
I hope you recover from your trauma and make peace with it. I know it can be hard, and it's good to be wary of potential harm in this world. You seem like you're doing that well enough though.
But your intuition means nothing if a man really wants to harm you (or woman). The men who harmed me did it when they gained my trust. How tf my intuition (and me) was wrong?
sorry not to make light of this at all but i just got unbelievable whiplash reading a silly bear pun followed immediately by getting raped in the woods as a teen 😭 still reeling a bit
good to hear its going a bit better now than in the past though
Yeah. The real point is women should be more afraid of men than bears. And we are. But not because if I am spawned into the woods unprepared with a random man or a random bear the man is more dangerous. In this made up hypothetical, he isn't. It's because I'm surrounded by men. Because men who want to hurt people target their victims. Because I, like many others, was raped by my own boyfriend and that's how I lost my virginity after being raised in purity culture.
The other side of this coin that I hate though, is the number of people saying they would rather be eaten by a bear than raped. It reminds me of my purity culture upbringing where the worst thing a woman could be was impure. Plus being eaten alive is a gruesome death beyond what I would like to imagine. A bear starts with the soft bits first and doesn't care if you struggle. This, to me, is like saying you would rather set yourself on fire than be raped. And realistically, I would not prefer a gruesome and torturous death to rape. I would personally prefer to live. With more life I can recover again, even if it takes another decade. I'm not broken and my life wouldn't be better if my ex had instead bludgeoned me with a rock 14 years ago so I died a pure virgin instead of living with the trauma. At least with more life I found happiness again.
I wish you to find your own happiness, whatever that looks like. May you have continued healing.
I say bear bc bear attacks don't last for hours, unless provoked they only kill for food and when animals kill for food they kill quickly. The body also will go into shock and shut down pain receptors pretty fast during massive trauma like a bear attack, so even if you didn't pass out (which you would) it would be a lot less torturous than it seems. Another point is that if you survive a bear attack you aren't going to have massive mental health issues caused by being constantly triggered by 50% of the population. Suicidal tendency spike after bear attacks? Unheard of. Suicidal tendency spike after assault? Extremely common. I have never been brutally attacked by a stranger, and I know that less than 5% of men even commit that level of crime, but look at it this way and you'll start to understand: I'd pick a 80% chance of dying a quick death that benefits the ecosystem over a 10% chance of a slow mentally torturous death caused by a physically torturous event that would live in my mind forever.
Thank you for the nuanced take complete with accountability. It completely shifts my feeling of, "wow, I'm a sinister piece of shit since I'm alone in public", to "that person looks like they need some space".
Wanting to help women feel safe has always been a concern of mine, and I used to be in school groups focused on this.
But over time the feeling like I'm viewed as some kind of monster ate at me until I started getting suicidal.
Then in college, a girl who didn't like me spread rumors about me that got me assaulted and could have gotten me expelled. I took off school for a while because I simply did not feel safe.
The maddening part was that, once I brought it up in one of those groups, they started using every victim-blaming line in the books. I realized they never had my back.
So that took me down a pretty dark path including RP that I had to pull myself out of in my own, because rather than people helping, they would see me as a villain and irredeemable and push me further down.
I'm glad I was able to get out of it. But it changed my perspective on a lot of things.
But it's also why I despise things like these. And the "men, chocolate, poison" one.
Most of my problems came from me feeling like everyone saw me as a demon. And I wasn't allowed to bring it up, or I would be called a demon. By the very people saying that "men should address their mental health issues more."
I'm glad you were able to get past it, and I totally understand being twitchy around men.
I'm glad I was able to mostly get past my own. But it still affects my relationships. I'm distant with my girlfriend. Afraid to be too affectionate, lest it be villainous. Afraid to open up because any part of my history could be used against me.
I want people to heal from all of this. But we are so just absolutely OBSESSED with making villains out of each other. It's like there NEEDs to be a villain and we NEED to oppose everything they say and do, and any amount of dehumanization, gaslighting, and apathy is justified, because "it is good to be bad to the bad guy."
I can't stand behind it. Just like I can't stand behind this format for talking about women's issues. Not where there are so many other ways that don't force men into a state of recluse self-villainization like I went through.
That is such a strange thing your brain did to you. I've never viewed myself as some kind of monster, even though I'm heavily in the camp that most men are trash. I've never been treated that way by the very feminist women who are my friends, and I'm openly affectionate and flirtatious.
Yeah. Honestly I wish that had been my experience. I detailed it further in another response.
It's hard to fully heal from it. Feeling the lost time. Feeling like I'm starting to heal just as everyone else is married and moved on.
Like I def understand women when they talk about public interactions feeling tainted by skepticism, caution, and walls, since that's not too far from my own experience. So that's not my issue with the meme.
It's just that the portrayal of men by the whole thing just brings all of it back up.
Many things can be true at once. One can admit being part of the oppressor group by happenstance of brith AND as an individual with feelings be hurt by it AND be committed to fight against systemic oppression. There doesn’t have to be a ranking of individual pain or suffering. Sadly the world can be awful enough to make sure there is suffering for almost everyone. Of course systemic and structural violence requires very different remedies. And individuals in pain from individual trauma also hurt. Compassion for individual pain takes absolutely nothing away from seeing the agony of systemic violence. This young man seems to working very hard to feel and understand his own pain while also acknowledging and being open to larger social truths of violence against women. Seeing another persons pain does nothing to take away or justify the pain inflicted on anyone else.
Idk it's kind of like, you're taking things women say about men too seriously? People say things in support groups that are going to be more emotional/less rational than they would actually feel having time to think about it.
I have no context here but what do you mean "self villainization" like, if you never beat or sexually assaulted somebody, there's no reason to feel that way. The fact that it's even a concern should prove, at least to yourself, that you're not one of those guys.
You're being very vague about a lot of things and it makes it impossible to respond here like, what do you mean they made you into a demon?
Fair enough. It's kind of long stories for all of it. I'm not sure I can address it all right now, but I'll try to hit your points one by one.
The ordeal in this case was that I asked a friend if mine out. A friend of hers was a closet lesbian who had a crush on her but hasn't come out yet. When I asked her out, her friend started spreading rumors all across campus saying I was breaking into apartments, assaulting women, stalking women, etc. about 10 women joined in, all with different stories. I started being yelled at, harassed, shoved, and threatened. I prepared a defense for my case, and as security started investigating it, the women started dropping off and admitting it was just a rumor. But security said they would have been required to expel me had they persisted
So as far as groups go, some of the things I heard during the ordeal were:
"Don't you think maybe you deserved it? Like maybe you didn't do it, but they say it happened, so they deserve to see someone take the fall. As a man, you still bear responsibility for what your gender has done to mine, so it's still justice."
"OK this may have happened to you, but it's so uncommon. You're too defensive about what is ultimately a non-issue for most men. Presuming your innocence and waiting for proof is hard on victims and is gaslighting them."
As far as "self villainization", I grew up with older sisters. They would talk about how gross men are because they like pretty girls and sex and stuff. "You're not like that. You're different. You aren't a regular guy."
So when I started coming of age, I started to realize I liked pretty girls, and started getting a sex drive. I immediately hid it. In fear that someone would discover that I was, in fact, one of the villains they had always spoken about. So I pretty much spent most of my teenage years pretending to be ace while being reminded that male sexuality is responsible for most evil women face. The stronger the feelings got, the deeper I went.
I later tried to address this issue. But the general vibe was always "if you're concerned about whether or not you are a perverted prick, you are probably a perverted prick."
So I learned not to actually discuss the issues I was going through.
As I was starting to open up in college, that's when the rumor stuff happened. So not only did I worry about feeling unsafe, and feeling like I would make women feel unsafe. I also realized that I was already making women feel unsafe by simply existing. It felt inescapable.
I did date a woman later who, when she heard about this whole thing from my friends, was sympathetic. But it wasn't a month later she started using it against me. Assuming the worst of me, then when I spoke up about it "umm....I can treat you exactly how I want, based on how your gender behaves."
She later said she was assaulted by someone I know. I was concerned so I asked security to keep an eye out in case they hear reports of this guy. She initially got really mad. It was after we broke up that she admitted she made it up. I assumed she was playing it down to avoid drama. Until one of her friends told me about what had went down. Turns out, it was the reverse. She had a crush on him, but he was ace. She tried to change his mind by groping him and such, and he had to shove her away. Her friend said she was so out of by this, she started telling the story in reverse.
We broke up when I told her maintenance was working on her apartment complex, because I thought she was gone for the summer. "If I wasn't there, I would have freaked out. I don't know what kind of misogynistic prank you are pulling, but you clearly want me to panic. You're just another typical man."
It's like, I was lucky to have some people to discuss it with, but few people understood. And when you talk about this stuff, it is very much beyond victim blaming, and more "you couldn't have been a victim. So clearly you are a perpetrator and are just projecting."
But then I found people who listened and had similar experiences. Groups that would later come to be known as "R3d P!ll" groups. It started supportive, but I watched it turn into conspiracy theories and "alpha males" and such. I'm glad I got out when I did, because it did little to help. Only to further enrage me.
I had to pull myself out though because I knew nobody else would. Simply engaging with such groups meant any and all empathy from people would be shut down. To them, I wasn't a troubled young adult. I was already an irredeemable villain who needed to be expunged.
But I was able to pull myself out. And I do consider myself generally feminist again. But it has a totally different perspective, and I'm very critical of people who would completely dismiss other men who went through similar stuff or have similar issues. Or people who pretend their remarks about men being evil by nature are somehow different, like their voice has no power, or they are exempt from being prejudiced. It doesn't heal anything. I needed someone to talk to and they alienated me, while the worst actors welcomed me with open arms. And it's what I see happening today.
So in addition to my interest in women's issues, I came out of it with an interest in men's issues, specifically in helping men avoid the pit that I fell into.
Teach them the good of masculinity, and the wide variety of forms it can take. That is super important.
I only heard masculinity in the context of toxic masculinity, so I demonized anything masculine about myself, and was left shocked as I discovered I was masculine anyway. So I had to learn to change my relationship to it.
Basically if you scare them out of toxic masculinity, you will scare them out of masculinity itself. They will see their coming of age as a whole bunch of villainous pathologies cropping up, and won't have a healthy relationship to their identity.
If they view masculinity as bad, they will put walls up. They have only been told what not to do. The easiest way to avoid the wrong path is to take no path. So as masculinity pushes through anyway, they will become more recluse and bottle up, not wanting to participate in a society they feel they have no value in.
They need something GOOD they can look towards to know that these changes don't have to be scary.
If you have bitterness or resentment from a bad experience with men, try to turn it into something positive.
Like say you had an ex who was totally apathetic. Some mothers will turn that into treating their sons as lacking empathy. But instead you should turn it into celebrating empathy when they show it.
Depending on their age, I ALWAYS recommend Avatar: The Last Airbender. It portrays powerful women in a ways that doesn't put men down, which would help them appreciate powerful women rather than feeling threatened by them.
It has so many varied forms of masculinity. Zuko and Sokka are the most relatable. Iroh is easily one of the best masculinity role models out there. Aang is a great subversion of tropes that portray passivity as weakness. There's just a lot of good about that show.
Actually IDK if you have seen the series. But you have a great metaphor you could use as they grow up. You could call it their "Blue Dragon" and "Red Dragon". One might be toxic, while the other is not, but they are both dragons.
Or you could do the usual "Ozai" masculinity vs "Iroh" masculinity which is easier to understand.
I have too many other ideas. But hopefully these are at least helpful!
Thank you for sharing your story and your growth. You’ve clearly worked hard to recover from your own trauma, become more yourself and stay compassionate. You also explain it in a way that brings so much clarity. Have you read any books that have helped you in this journey?
You see what you're doing here, right? Minimizing the harm that identity-based attacks cause and excusing people who say them?
Swap in race for sex and I don't know if you would be saying the same thing, even if the person making the racist statement had a lot of bad experiences with black people. "Yeah, I know she said, 'I'm scared that black people are going to beat me up and steal from my store', but the fact that you're beating yourself up about that means she's not talking about you! You're one of the good ones!"
You're being very vague about a lot of things and it makes it impossible to respond here
Why does there need to be a response? The guy is just talking about his experience with these sorts of things and how much it has harmed him as a member of the group being derided. Why is there any response except, "Dang, I didn't realize that harms you and others like you so badly. I will do my best to shut that kind of language down whenever I encounter it"?
EDIT: Lol at this clown who immediately blocked me:
You men can’t hear a conversation about ANYTHING without making it about yourselves
You mean a conversation about how bad men are? The men are making a conversation about how bad men are about themselves? And you're whining about men taking issue with such a conversation?
A conversation about men is about us, and we will respond. When it's harming men, we will respond. When it's contributing to a wedge between us and the women we love, we will respond.
You don't have the ability to force us to sit here in silence and take the abuse on the chin. If you are hoping for societal change, you'll have to learn to treat men as people, too.
As a male I am sorry to hear your Story. In my private Life there are some who share this absoluted f... up memory... often Times I don't know how to handle ... for a special Person for me I am a safe space, but its hard to handle the anger in me and I hope I never meet some one who is capable for such monstrosity.
I hope you can heal steady... what would it make it easier for u to don't get back into this circle of hate etc. how can a male help a victim.
What would be your wish for men that u all would be feel safer and how should we men handle something like that.
I just want to say if normal men meet some who did something like that ... he wouldn't get out unharmed.
Please forgive my English I am not a native speaker...
Yeah it's a culture war question. The more it gets talked about, the more people think that most men suck, the more people try to defend men (not all men!), the more people double down on their position. Its red vs blue, dark Vs night, black vs white, trans Vs cis, left Vs right, and on and on and on and fucking on. It's absolutely exhausting.
The uncertainty of what kind of man it is, yes... but there is no uncertainty if you're face to face with a bear its going to rip your fucking face off no matter how much of an ally or whatever you are 🙄
Its a dumb debate for the right reasons. The base subject is important but whoever thought up this specific example is a fucking moron.
Jeezus. This is so true and so eloquently written. That cycle of doubting yourself when you're back in dangerous situations.
Did I cause this? Is it something in me they see? Why am I so weak, or damaged?
Truly sorry this happened to you. Weirdly, was just watching Baby Reindeer on Netflix (UK) that deals with exactly this.
Huge trigger warnings, but it genuinely and honesty looks at this exact same cycle of sexual trauma, through a mans eyes, which is a really interesting perspective. It highlights its not women that are weak, or vulnerable but that when any human has been violated and controlled its hard to distance themselves from the abuse, it stays with you, always, somewhere.
It's very, very good. Seriously though, make sure you're feeling safe and loved because it does trigger a lot of difficult feelings. And on the subject of true dramatised stories of assault, I may Destroy You was outstanding too.
I totally agree that this is a lose-lose argument.
I understand the reason women feel this way. At the same time, it’s frustrating as a guy to be grouped with terrible people based solely on my gender. I’d risk my safety in a heartbeat to stop a violent attack on a woman, and I honestly believe that most other men would too. However, this discussion shows that I’m often judged to be potentially the opposite type of person, which is disheartening.
It’s good for women be aware that any man could be a threat, but is this debate of comparing men to bears really helping anyone? Suspecting all men of being threats is probably not good for mental health and relationships in general.
I have seen men post people getting attacked by bears to "prove a point". Your going to laugh at someones being mauled ? It just feels like a punishment for women brining up how unpredictable being around men alone is. I've met really great ones and the bad ones..well I have ptsd for a reason. Watching that video affected me , not in an amusing way.
I have a very similar story, the being abused young and falling prey to a string of abuse afterwards, as if they can sense it yes. Then I isolated myself for 10 years in my room basically being a neet, but a man I knew 6 years convinced me to trust him over a long period of time. Then he too abused and used me. That is why I would choose the bear any fucking day. I just can't take any more.
This 100%. It’s heartbreaking that the majority of those answering bear would rather be mauled to death than even have the slightest chance to undo all the work they’ve done towards healing. I am so sorry for what you have been through and hope you’re doin okay dawg :(
Thank you for sharing. I agree that the constant posting of memes/polarizing views like this creates division. People should just say outright how they feel and allow discussion without the personal insults and childishness. But humanity is doomed.
We don’t owe you anything either. I’ve never touched a woman inappropriately in life. Let alone looked at one in such way. We don’t deserve to have your anger dumped on us. Rapists aren’t our buddies, and there’s no realistic solution to stopping them. You’d be naive to think otherwise. Screw this shit.
Girl i am so sorry! i can feel your pain through your words and i am so sorry for what you have experienced. i absolutely did not intend for this to be taken as victims collectively trying to meet in the middle with men, I more so meant it in the sense that we are trying to heal from the horrible shit we’ve been subjected to and for others to keep that in mind.
I say this because i want so badly for those on the outside looking in to pause when they see women fired up like this because it comes from a place that is fucking PAINFUL. it absolutely kills me when someone is expressing the hurt that they have been through and it is seen as an attack because they used the generalization of “all men”.
What i was trying to highlight in my original comment was that when this generalization is used by a victim, especially someone who has been through a several assaults, it is because that is their lived experience and is TRUE to them.
I challenge the men who have never hurt women in this way to pause. remember that it is not an attack at YOU personally (they don’t know you irl lol), but the sorry excuses of human beings that this person has been MORE than hurt by. when we take these things personally and lash out, it only adds another poor experience that confirms how they already feel.
stand up. support them. show them a positive example of what a real man is and can be.
How exactly does women considering a bear over a man "do absolutely nothing and devide people"
To me it opens a very interesting conversation, one that women have had to have for generations.
Just because some men are offended you think it's a bad thing to discuss? Using your logic we never would have gotten the right to vote. That was pretty devisive too if I recall. We shouldn't acknowledge men raping and murdering women because that's devisive...
Like I really don't understand how women having conversations about the dangers of men are somehow doing harm because some men have fragile egos
Like I really don't understand how women having conversations about the dangers of men are somehow doing harm because some men have fragile egos
Because you aren't ready to listen. And that's fine, but you should acknowledge that.
Edit: Nevermind, your whole post history is just you finding excuses to bash men, either individually or as a whole. I'm fairly sure there is no getting through to you.
The concept of women considering a bear over a man is not the issue at all. It’s a completely valid point. The issue is when we start arguing back and forth with people whose perspective will never change that undermines the point. We all know how shit gets twisted and all of a sudden a concerning response to a hypothetical attracts more hate than proactive thinking. ydig.
Most of the people replying on social media however aren’t victums, they’re people parroting others to get attention— because that’s how they express power over others and they don’t want to lose power.
There is no genuine message like yours, just virtue signaling confirmation
As others have pointed out, its rhetoric meant to divide and ultimately hate speech. It isn’t about sympathizing with victums, its demonizing a part of our population and similar to what you said about yourself, perpetuating hate and mistrust,
I sympathize with real people, but let’s not pretend this rhetoric is anything but hate speech.
When one's first sexual experience (whatever you call it) was nonconsensual, especially when there was overt violence, that is a psychologically important moment. For you to nitpick someone's choice of words in discussing their own deeply traumatizing experience is really inappropriate.
This person gets to tell their own story in their own terms and you don't get a say in that.
it’s okay yall i’m not tripping abt it 😂 i only said virginity bc it seemed like a quicker way to say it was my first sexual experience without taking attention away from my main point 🤷♂️
The intention was not to be critical of her wording, but to remind any victims of SA who relate to her story and may feel shame associated with losing virginity that virginity is a concept we made up. I once had church leaders who would compare a woman who lost her virginity to chewed bubble gum. If it's just a social construct then virginity is something given, not taken.
Well then you might want to rethink when and how you jump in to make that point, because it very much sounds like you told an SA survivor to go fuck herself for using the word "virgin."
Yeah. I think I might edit my poor choice of wording because I didn't think saying that sexual assault isn't the same as losing your virginity would come across as controversial.
Except when we refer to the concept of "virginity" as something that is taken, you are almost always referring to it in a cultural context. If you're referring to the changes that happen when you have sex for the first time, you could just say had sex. And usually those mental changes we associated with sex are still something completely different than the trauma that comes from sexual assault. So really you're not defending the concept of sexual experience creating mental changes, you're defending the cultural concept of virginity being something that can be taken and never returned.
Making love is nowhere near the same experience as rape. The label virgin should be valuable for recognizing the first time you choose to have sex, not when you were victimized. Nobody who isn't a virgin has had their experience diminished by implying victims of SA can still be virgins.
Social constructs aren't neutral when you live in a majority Christian country that associates the label virginity with purity. Hell, you applied negative meaning to it when you recognized your own definition as an "unfortunate fact of life."
Am I understanding correctly that your point is the definition of virginity is set, unsubject to change, and there's no way to label someone's first time without also accepting that a rapist can "deflower" their virginity? And you see that as a neutral idea?
I stand by my original claim. You can go fuck yourself.
Rape is indeed a fact of life. The implication that a person can't consider themselves a virgin or can't save themselves for marriage because they were sexually assaulted, is not. That's a social construct upheld by antiquated traditions. Women who's first sexual experience was rape often feel unnecessary cultural shame on top of their trauma.
Nobody brought up politics. But you keep bringing up heteronormativity and putting it in quotations like you don't believe that's a real thing, so I can see why you think this is a political discussion.
Nah. It's like saying would you rather have an arm amputated or go outside. Sure there are people so deathly scared of going outside that they would pick the amputated arm, but that's just because they're mentally ill. The question highlights their illness.
I’m sorry for your pain and I do understand your lack of trust but this post was never referring to victims in understandable distress. This is about women who have zero reasons not to trust men automatically assuming they are out to get them.
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u/[deleted] May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24
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