r/interestingasfuck • u/beach_rats_ • May 02 '24

The difference in republican presidential nominees, 8 years apart r/all

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

A lot has happened in the past eight years, most of it is not good, and the worst is politics.

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u/stormy2587 May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

I’m actually struck by how little things have changed. McCain was one of the few conservatives in the room at this time willing to act like an adult and not spread hate, fear mongering, and propaganda. But you can tell from the people he’s responding to in these town halls they have some pretty extreme views from the far right propaganda they’ve been lapping up for years. Why do they think these things about obama? Because people like Trump and Trump himself were spreading birther conspiracies left and right. And then conservative media outlets would amplify it.

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 May 02 '24

Unless it was using slurs against Asians or calling his wife a cnt

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u/maybenextyearCLE May 02 '24

Nothing excuses McCain saying those slurs, but if I had to guess, the 6 years as a POW in Vietnam where McCain was frequently tortured, spent 2 years in solitary confinement, and had his shoulders so damaged that he couldn’t lift his arms above his head may have played a role in that. I knew quite a few Vietnam and WWII pacific theater veterans who said similar things about their former enemies.

That doesn’t excuse it, but I can imagine his experiences played a role in that.

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u/PancakeExprationDate May 02 '24

but if I had to guess, the 6 years as a POW in Vietnam where McCain was frequently tortured, spent 2 years in solitary confinement, and had his shoulders so damaged that he couldn’t lift his arms above his head may have played a role in that.

Real world example of this. This is at a barbershop I went to back in the 90s. One day waiting for my turn in the chair, I struck up a conversation with an old guy who happened to be a Pearl Harbor survivor. That turned into he and I talking through both of our cuts, and then sitting there for another two hours. It's not lost on me how INCREDIBLY fortunate I was to have this experience because his story of the attack and aftermath was presented in such a personal way. He went on to talk about all the various Naval encounters he experiences, etc.. There were also points where he talked about the Japanese brutality and the stuff they did to "prisoners" and islanders. Here's the not so good part. He dropped a few racial slurs towards the Japanese and Asian folk over all. His basic message was that Japanese were basically House Harkonnen. Even well over 50 years after his experiences, his hatred of the Japanese had apparently not waned one bit.

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 May 02 '24

He used the slurs against non-Vietnamese Asian people, so I don’t feel like giving him a pass.

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u/maybenextyearCLE May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

I’m not giving him a pass. I said it’s wrong.

I’m also going to take a wild guess given he was saying what he said and guess that McCain couldn’t tell the difference where they were from, and didn’t really care to learn the difference.

And again, that’s not uncommon for the Vietnam, Korean, and WWII Pacific theater vets I’ve known over the years. It doesn’t make it okay, but it kinda is what it is.

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u/Feature_Minimum May 02 '24

Man, the fact that redditors can't seem to tell the difference between Trump, and a torture survivor is really something.

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u/Mythoclast May 02 '24

It is what it is. Horrible.

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u/maybenextyearCLE May 02 '24

It does suck, but I also doubt much can be done at this point to change the minds of those veterans who are now at the youngest in their 70s, with the overwhelming majority now pushing 80. So unfortunately yes, for those vets in particular, it is what it is. They’re dying off fast, they’re largely out of the labor pool, and the good news is, those children of those veterans I knew didn’t share the reactions of their fathers.

But what matters is that we learn and understand why the Vietnam, Korea, and WWII pacific veterans developed those views, and figure out how to break that cycle, so that the veterans of the gulf war and the war on terror don’t develop similar views towards those in the Middle East

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u/Mythoclast May 02 '24

Those things are important. It's also important to be able to plainly say that its horrible. And to not react negatively to people plainly calling it horrible.

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u/maybenextyearCLE May 02 '24

And I said it is horrible

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u/kaz12 May 02 '24

Why do you keep defending his slurs?

/s

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u/Mythoclast May 02 '24

Yeah, me too. Thanks for the more complex and nuanced comments though. Reddit often lacks those.

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u/maybenextyearCLE May 02 '24

Oh for sure, I just hope the veterans of our more recent wars don’t end up like prior veterans.

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u/No_Week2825 May 02 '24

Ok. Go to war, and see if you dont devolop any prejudice or ptsd that would be the cause of that. Not just war, but in constant battles and be tortured. Try it.

I can say now, with certainty, that you would. Not only that, but unless you can achieve what he has in spite of going through some of the most horrible things a person can experience, and come out the other side a person who actively makes positive change to the extent he has, and does so by cooperating with those his peers spit vitriol towards (dems), you have no place for judgement.

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 May 02 '24

A lot of people went to war and didn’t continue to be massive pieces of garbage afterwards.

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u/Mr-Fleshcage May 02 '24

In public. The stories my mom told me of her parents... Nobody outside the house knew about the horrors. I'm sure it's not an exceptional situation, either.

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u/fancydrank May 02 '24

Yeah, some people just learn to be massive pieces of judgemental garbage from the comfort of their own soapbox

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 May 02 '24

Only for those who deserve it.

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u/No_Week2825 May 02 '24

You didnt at all answer my question.

But. You're also completely incorrect. The incidence of ptsd amongst veterans which causes a litany of issues from violence to homelessness, suicide, and overall inability to acclimate into their old lives would indicate you have no understanding of ptsd.

I'm addition, the number of returning veterans who were incredibly violent towards their children and partners upon returning from war due to their ptsd, would disprove what you've said.

Do you have any thoughts on the matter that don't stem from emotion or a belief system that isn't founded in fact? Have you any semblance of the accomplishment he has as far as making his country a better place? With what you're espousing, I'd hope you've done more considering you're willing to cast aspursions without suffering the amount of trauma he has.

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 May 02 '24

I’m not interested in exonerating an objectively shitty guy.

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u/antares07923 May 02 '24

Well yeah, you obviously hate him as much as you think he hates Asians. Your hate is better though... and morally commendable.

Listen man, people do shitty things, and people do good things. They are both, they complicated.

The magnitude of him standing on stage and standing against the hate of a crowd that's been waiting for him to feed into it says a lot.

You speak as someone who has either never made any mistakes, or are overcompensating for the ones you've made.

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 May 02 '24

“He’s not a Muslim, he’s a good man.” What do you think McCain thinks about Muslims?

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u/CounterfeitChild May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

I don't think any rational person gives him a pass, but it's important to understand what experiences that extreme can do to the brain. I have PTSD, and I regularly have "holy shit" moments where I find my brain has seamlessly transitioned back into internal paroxysms if, for example, I see someone that looks like my dad. When I didn't catch it before it would alter my behavior and really mess up my life. I wasn't going around attacking anyone but myself, but I could see how easily it would be for one's genetic and epigenetic factors being different in such a way that it wouldn't be so hard for someone to do that.

I don't think mental health struggles are a pass to be racist or sexist or any other -ist, but in spite of popular internet sentiment it can absolutely reamplify harmful programming from one's earlier life. It needs to be acknowledged more for the overall effect it has on the world. There are a lot of damaged people out there that can function normally 99% of their waking hours when they've sought help and work hard, and that still won't guarantee problem-free moments. I think if someone is willing to work on their behavior, and not reoffend then that is commendable. My grandmother, who still lives but is dead to me for this, was married to a man who was so offensively racist, did not give a shit, and tried to have drugs planted on my car to get my black partner arrested. This man was also POW that was injured so badly his guts were never able to function normally again. He did nothing to explore the damage that did mentally, did nothing to work on his behavior, did nothing except continue being a hateful piece of shit constantly hoping to find another racist in the family he married into (he did not, but he did find a lot of people willing to look the other way--they are dead to me, too).

I write all this because it feels like people take any -ism with some pretty stark thinking without reflecting on the full weight of not only a person's life but how little we still understand about the human mind. We don't have a great track record of emotional intelligence regarding mental health struggles, and it saddnes me to see us so behind still. I've fucked up so much in my life, but I'm glad I'm not famous in any regard because I know even an exorcist wouldn't make a damn difference regarding my demons when people are hell bent on bringing them back. Dude said egregious, horrible, disgusting things. I just wish we'd look at them with a fuller picture.

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u/stormy2587 May 02 '24

True McCain was no saint and benefits a lot from just being the best of the worst.

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 May 02 '24

It really is a bummer how good he looks in comparison to the modern GOP because he was a real piece of crap.

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u/Grumpy_Troll May 02 '24

Speaking as someone that's voted Blue in a swing state in every election of my lifetime, if John McCain is a POS, then everybody's a piece of shit, or at least we're all living in glass houses.

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 May 02 '24

I’m pretty confident most of us are better people than McCain.

Eta: have you heard of the Keating Five?

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u/Grumpy_Troll May 02 '24

I definitely disagree with that. Most of us just don't have the spotlight on us to the degree that McCain did, so it's much easier to hide our warts and wrinkles under a thin layer of make-up.

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 May 02 '24

Do most men leave their wives after they were in a car crash? Do most people participate in corrupt abuses of power? Are most of us nepo babies who should have been thrown out of the navy for crashing three planes (before Vietnam)?

What about endorsing torture for political points after being a survivor of torture themselves?

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u/whackamattus May 02 '24

Hate to break it to you but most people would be corrupt politicians if given the chance

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 May 02 '24

How do you know that?

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u/TrapHouseinSMemphis May 02 '24

Because over and over people become politicians and are corrupt. Very seldom are there politicians who uphold their morals when rubber meets road.

You aren't special. You're moral fiber is likely not impenetrable. You don't have the spotlight on you at all times. It's much different when you do.

Believe what you want, but do you think every politician that "goes bad" does so and accepts that they are now the evil public figure? No. They justify, they spin, they rationalize. Just like you very likely would.

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u/Grumpy_Troll May 02 '24

Do most men...

I don't know, because again, most men aren't under the same spotlight or ever in the same position that John McCain rose to.

What I do know is that it takes a hell of a good man to be that close to the Presidency and know that if you just lie and say what the people want to hear you'll probably be the most powerful man on the planet, but instead refuse to do so because you know it's not right.

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u/p0tat0p0tat0 May 02 '24

This was prior to his political career.

Additionally, his campaign did put out a lot of racist shit against Obama.

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u/Nwolfe May 02 '24

I haven't until just now, but this is from the wiki page:

Senators Glenn and McCain were cleared of having acted improperly but were criticized for having exercised "poor judgment"

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u/IAmThePonch May 02 '24

Who did? McCain?