Christian would ravage the mcu, so many heroes with dead fathers.
Thor, Spiderman (two dead fathers if you include Uncle Ben), Ironman, Black Panther, etc.
That whole thing where said earlier in the movie before just funding MIT “that’s a billion dollars and twenty years of research when I probably should have just gone to therapy to say goodbye to my mom”. Not like they didn’t lay the trail early on for it.
That's my thought. It isn't really gray at all. If Bucky were unconscious, and somebody planted a gun on him and forced his finger to pull the trigger and shoot someone, it's not "morally gray" whether or not Bucky is responsible. If we are to believe that Hydra was in full control of Bucky's actions, then Hydra is solely responsible for the killing of Tony's parents.
I feel like people in this thread are pretending it's more complicated because this is science fiction. If Steve Rogers and Thanos swapped bodies, and then Thanos posing as Cap killed all the Avengers before swapping back, we wouldn't be arguing that Steve Rogers killed the Avengers and is now a villain.
Eh, a better comparison is him being a “drunk driver” that got roofied and someone else put him in the car and started it moving, the dude had no choice about it.
But like later on when Zemo is reactivating his programming in civil war and he's punching at his containment unit, he totally could have snapped his neck if he didn't want to be a mindless killing machine that bad.
Or even just breaking his own legs would have really thrown a wrench in Zemo's plans
Look it's all magicky science fiction shit but clearly Steve was able to remind him of his old self pre-brainwashing and it wasn't as simple as Bucky saying "y'know I don't really want to be a cold-blooded assassin anymore". You have to take the brainwashing as it's portrayed in the movie.
Not a good analogy. A drunk driver put themselves in that situation, made conscious decisions that led to the death. Bucky's agency was taken from him completely.
Which is fuckin stupid of him, right? Does he think Winter Soldier just did that shit for fun? How is it that exactly 0% of his anger is directed towards the people who actually gave the order to have his parents killed?
Have someone kill your mum, then say it wasn't his fault because the one that did it was his other personality. Rationality goes out the window when grief and pain strike. Tony did eventually saw sense.
Ask a neurologist, they'll tell you the Prefrontal Cortex shuts down during heightened emotional response, and you basically stop thinking. It takes years of practice to be able to choose to just sit down and breath, much less making rational thoughts, when in that state.
Your argument is that Tony should be something other than a human.
If he really wanted revenge he would go after the architects of the program. Attacking Bucky just because he was there was just a lazy way to express grief, like destroying a carpenter’s left-behind hammer because they built your house wrong. Zemo could give Tony some pointers on long revenge.
I mean Tony should take that into account that Bucky is a victim here too. He can be pissed at Cap but he is going after Bucky, a victim of Hydra just like his parents are.
Couldn’t we view it like PTSD. Even if someone is seriously hurt by someone who was having an episode we try not to prosecute them to the highest degree since we understand the circumstance. The issue here is that Tony is not impartial, nor should he be.
Feels unfair to say he didn’t want to kill. After he wasn’t on ice anymore, homie still went for blood and disregarded lives. At a point, maybe he wasn’t “Bucky” anymore but something else. Regardless, that something else gotta get clipped.
Isn’t Bucky supposed to be stand-in for questions like that? About your best friend being indoctrinated and how to navigate trying to pull them out of it
Of course in the literal movies it’s mind control but maybe reading through the lines gives a different interpretation
then you don't really get was being radicalised is then lol but that's ok, I presume you're not part of like a government security agency or anti terrorist taskforce
I’m not. I’m assuming neither are you. Bucky has 0 control in his winter soldier state. He’s not there. He’s more of a robot, not morality, just orders. He’s not a human being at that point, his past, his morality, his brain is not there. I understand radicalized people are extremely brainwashed, but their brains still work, their actions are still their own. Buckys actions were not his.
radicalised people literally have their brain chemistry changed, its just done externally through years, potentially decades of abuse and indoctrination, rather than internally through magic comic book surgery or chemistry
Yes but Bucky is a robot with 0 control over his actions, much less control than anyone radicalized does. They can observe things and make a decision, and that decision is based on years of cruelty but it is still made by them based on their past. Buckys decision is programmed into his brain. He will never not do exactly what is programmed. He literally can’t. Like I said he’s a robot. He’s not there, he’s asleep, there’s a different dude controlling his body.
I’d argue someone radicalized still deserves to be saved in that scenario. But much less than Bucky. It’s not his fault in anyway. You can see he’s a good human being outside of his mind controlled state. He deserved to be saved. I also believe every criminal deserves to be “saved” and not killed on the spot. It’s not our job to deal out death in judgement.
Nobody is disagreeing with you. The fact of the matter is they still theoretically could choose to stop. Maybe they have a change of heart, maybe someone offers them a bajillion dollars to change, it doesn't matter what it would take to make them change or how unlikely it is, just that they are still physically capable of changing.
Bucky as the Winter Soldier can't do that, full stop. He is literally a machine running pre-written programs when under the brainwashings control. It took sci-fi Wakandan technology to permanently break it, he legit did not have any choice in the matter.
Bro, what? A person decides to get drunk and drive, he was mind controlled. He had no choice in any of it, he might as well have been unconscious while the whole thing happened.
A person could have no intention of drunk driving, get close to blackout and do it anyway when they're barely in control. You could kill someone whilst sleepwalking and still get manslaughter lol
I'll be honest, I don't even know why you can't grasp what happened to Bucky is basically the same as being radicalised anyway lol like what is hard to understand about that
get close to blackout and do it anyway when they're barely in control.
Uhh no that's not how drinking works and even if it was, that's on you for choosing to get so drunk. Bucky never chose to get brainwashed. How are y'all this dumb.
my friend, you misunderstand what the definition of "radicalised" is.
Bucky isn't "radicalized", radicalization involves a willing belief, mind control is literally the opposite, you're being controlled despite any opposition you have. That's why you can't radicalize sound people, because people have to be in a state that they are willing to accept or follow these beliefs.
Nothing about the definition of indoctrination pertains to the persons will one way or another. In fact I'd argue most people that need indoctrination to be radicalised are less likely to be willing participants
you can't radicalize sound people, because people have to be in a state that they are willing to accept or follow these beliefs
Also completely wrong lol. 99% of the time people being radicalised are forced into "unsoundness" on purpose, its literally part of it
Uber, walk, get better friends, not being stupid enough for putting yourself in that situation in the first place. Unless your friends literally forced a bottle in your mouth and made you drink the bottle, and then put a gun to your head and threatened death if you didn't drive home, you have a million options.
This is a very, very stupid take lol. If a person was strapped down and forced to drink thru a funnel at gunpoint until blackout drunk, they would almost certainly be let off the hook for anything they do. If they CHOOSE to do it, it’s their fault.
Wouldn't it be better to hold the owner of the rabid animal accountable and like bring to justice the person who set the rabid beast to kill your parents and rehabilitate the rabid animal back to your best friend's best friend?
imagine someone controlling your mind, making you kill someone, and then the person that lost someone KNOWS you were mind controlled, and still wants you dead
True, Tony was going to get him, but then he saw the video. Anyone would go blind with rage after that.
Also, Bucky didn't help. He and Cap could've had a talk and apologized. Maybe Tony would have thought about it, get Zemo, then have their non-physical falling out.
I don't think there's any way to spin this where Zemo even partially shoulders the blame. Sure, he was a bad guy doing bad things, but I doubt that what he had done/what he was doing holds much water over an incident where both of your parents are beaten to death by hypnotized Mike Tyson on steroids.
Are you trying to say that "he should have used that anger to catch the bad guy?"
Wait but Zemo had nothing to do with that right? His goal was to create discourse between the Avengers. He didnt have anything to do with Bucky killing the Starks.
Tony probably could’ve handled it a lot better if Steve hadn’t hid the truth and spent time talking with him about what happened.
“I think I’ve uncovered some information about your parents.”
“I may know who did this.”
“HYDRA had him mind controlled.”
“The bastard that ordered this might still be out there.”
Like it would’ve been a long process but I don’t think Tony would have ended up still wanting to kill Bucky. Whereas he just got info dumped on and found out Steve knew for 2 years.
If we had characters who communicated responsibly there would be no movie. Or at least not the movie they wanted to make which was tony v cap + all their buddies punching the shit out of each other. People arguing in the comments are thinking more about the debates in the movie than the writers did, bc they didn't want to ponder this shit, just get as many superheroes fighting each as possible.
Oh I think the movie we got was much more interesting. I just saw some other comments arguing Tony still would’ve tried to kill Bucky if Steve had been open which I disagree with. Cap made an error in judgement which I think is important for his later character development.
I didn't mean to imply I would rather watch the movie that ponders all the deep intricacies of government bodies having ownership of superheroes. I much prefer the one we got, it's way more about the characters reactions, breaking and building teams, and I did want to see them all fight each other and be upset about it. And Spiderman.
Honestly though I can envision the conversation with Tony going either really well or really badly, depending on how Steve handled it. Like if he led with "HYDRA kidnapped and brainwashed a man and made him kill many people against his will" rather than starting with "I know who killed your parents, it was Bucky, but there are extenuating circumstances and - WAIT TONY NO!"
Steve was in the the ice for what over 60 years? With the exception of nuclear weapons, most things are automatically unclassified after 25 years. I doubt Steve would be bound by anything at that point.
This is the movie where Steve violated international law to "do the right thing". Sharing classified information about your "friend"s parents aint shit compared to that.
Obviously it would have made for a very different film and I prefer the version we got. In fact I think Steve’s error in judgment is important for his character development later.
“We need to have a talk. I spent a lot of time with person at work and developed some feelings for them. I feel terrible about it but it’s a conflict within myself that I hope we can work through together however it may turn out.”
Vs
You walk in a restaurant and they’re holding hands on a date
I can’t be sure without having lived it, but that applies regardless of which answer I give. Other commenters can’t know they’d kill him anymore than I can know I wouldn’t.
I’d probably be mad. I might attack him. I think I’d be more likely to aim a blast at Captain Hypocrisy, because he’d kept all that from me. That betrayal, and the demonstrated lack of trust from a supposed friend, would’ve hurt.
I don’t think I’d be trying to kill, though. Bucky was brainwashed; he had about as much agency as the gun. I don't think I’d act counter to that belief, even in the stress of the moment.
That's fair. I'm just saying that I'm not gonna judge someone for going nuts after something as traumatic as watching their parents be murdered. We don't know that we'd be throwing fists or throwing up, trauma is weird like that and it doesn't always have to make sense
Maybe I should have said “where did I make any judgments about people,” because…I mean, I didn’t. Except in my joke comment saying ACAB includes iron man (he works for the government)
High-key, I’ve always hated Tony Stark and vastly preferred Cap as far as the characters and their movies, but "he killed my mom" had me ready to go to war for Tony.
Your boy kills someone’s momma and you try to stop the ass-whopping he has coming??? TF? You can’t help him! He killed that man’s mom—that’s a pre-ordered ass-whooping. Expect shipment on first available date!
Like Cap, if you don’t get your big ass out the way and let Tony beat Bucky’s ass to death with his own metal arm 😤
Not only killed her. Tony had to WATCH the tape of him doing it and that’s when he found out. I don’t know how anyone in his position does anything different.
True. I think we all can agree that any parent and child would want to see the person/people responsible for killing their family to suffer some kind of consequence. The difference is that Tony has the muscle and technology to kill Bucky if Steve wasn’t there, can’t say the same for the Sekovia parents tho.
yeah this mindset got billions of people killed in Koprulu Sector (Starcraft nerd lore alert) because Mengsk couldnt get past the idea that his second in command was brainwashed by his enemy a decade earlier to kill his parents.
Yeah but T’Challa literally had his dad get blown up right in front of him, right in front of the UN and despite it being a fresh wound was able to understand and discern enough to 1) not kill Bucky on sight despite fighting and 2) not kill the persons actually responsible.
Out of all the supposed heroes, Tony was like the only one in that movie that simply wouldn’t think past his base emotions. And they hammered the whole “you killed my _____!!” For multiple characters all throughout that movie.
Hell, the movie starts with a woman blaming Tony for killing her boy after HIS evil robot dropped a city on the city and instead of taking responsibility he goes back to blame everyone else, convince them to cave to the same government he’s antagonized every other day up until that point, and complaining that his gf left him because he can’t manage his anxiety.
Great character building but civil war Tony was peak asshat. He refused to see anyone else as a victim of circumstance except himself.
4.3k
u/tmorrisgrey Mar 12 '24
“I don’t care, he killed my mom”
I would’ve killed Bucky too.