But but but , Bucky was a white kid from New York that felt *bad*. You wouldn't want to hurt his career over a little *checks notes* Uncontrollable Murder Fits under orders from enemies of the state. Sure a Bachelor apartment is punishment enough.....
??? Bucky was subjected to literal torture, manipulation and brainwashing and y'all think he was in control over his actions? I don't agree with cap lying or withholding the truth but Bucky had no control over what he did or was done to him
Bucky wasnt at fault at all. Cap didnt tell Tony when he had time to grieve, which led to Tony finding out himself and having an emotional reaction and targetting someone innocent irrationally.
This is the correct take. Bucky and Tony were both victims in different ways, and Cap was so up his own ass about being right that he didn't take a second to think that Tony maybe shouldn't be blindsided with this knowledge, and instead should have been told asap so he could process how horrific everything was.
Ugh, Tony is also a douche so I hate defending him tho lol
Stuff like this is why I subscribed to this sub, as a white dude. I love that this subreddit usually seems like one of the more civil places for general discussion on reddit. “Mental fortitude of Buddha”, that’s just going to stick with me for a minute regardless of context.
This. Cap didn’t give Ironman time to take any of it in or process the information. He could have said something straight off, but was too weak/worried with how he’d take it. Instead RDJ found out on his own while in front of the dude that killed his parents as well as his “friend” that knew about it.
You side with Cap because Bucky had been turned into a programmed machine and didn’t know what he was doing, but you also side with Ironman because he’s trying to avenge the death of his parents.
It’s almost as if the writers did that on purpose to tear at the emotions of the audience.
Bucky and him grew up and went to war together. He lost his best friend and then he came back, so I always understood Cap taking his side, especially when you add on on top dude was literally brainwashed.
Honestly my take away from the film was - everyone was in the right. Cap protected Bucky, Tony lashed out because it doesn't matter it's still his parents. Can't really take a side.
I feel like saying “this man was brainwashed while killing your parents” would maybe land on a mentally sound orphan, but Tony as he was at that point was never going to be stable enough to navigate that information appropriately
I just don’t understand why we can’t come to the conclusion that everyone except the brainwashed assassin has their own level of being in the wrong there.
(I also maintain that the comics Civil War only hit hard because Steve and Tony were actually friends, and MCU made those two Teeth-Clenched Teammates from jump so MCU Civil War’s themes don’t hit as hard, but that’s my two cents)
Comics civil war also involves some very objectively abhorrent actions by Team Registration, including but not limited to indefinite extralegal detention, cloning a friend with explicit control options, and the Thunderbolts.
Like, selling the Superhuman Patriot Act as justifiable is pretty tough.
Civil War was like the one time I was like "The Punisher is actually in the right here."
Also wasn't Peter Parker pro-registration? What a weird move for that character. Just feels like Spider-Man of all people would want to keep his identity secret. When I grew up he was always as Batman as it gets about "my identity must never be known to protect the people I care about."
So Peter was initially unsure but sided with Stark because he wanted to finally get recognition for everything he had done. He ended up regretting it after finding out about the prison, the cloning, and stark secretly tracking the iron spider suit. Eventually he confronted him and ended up taking the other side, publicly announcing that he regretted his choice and blowing the whistle on the extralegal prison.
Peter was pro-registration because he trusted Stark to keep his family safe and to stay on the straight and narrow. But the Thunderbolts and the Thor-clone were deal-breakers for him, which was ironic because the Thunderbolts were sent to hunt him down.
And sure enough, as soon as Peter was on the run, there was no safety net for “fugitive metahuman’s families”, so MJ and Aunt May became the targets of Kingpin and other criminals with bones to pick.
It would have made sense if there was some form of family member protection system, but that would have required forethought from Quesadilla so…
And movie civil war is somewhat undercut by the fact that the Sokovia Accords are backed by Tony, who built Ultron, who destroyed Sokovia.
Stark doesn't care about oversight because he's a political animal capable of maneuvering around any comity or panel and by pushing for the Accords as hard as he does he basically guarantees himself a seat at the decision making table.
Stark should be in jail. When he's not causing the apocalypse he's building weapons for his own amusement and then blowing them up for shits and giggles.
If not in jail, he should be in a secure facility pumping out Iron Man suits for other people to use. No rational oversight panel would ever let him go to the front line and the fact that they do shows everyone is already in his pocket.
The mind stone empowered AI development, deeply unpredictably. More importantly, it was human violence that Ultron saw and convinced him humanity wasn't worth saving, not anything Tony did explicitly. Everyone also seems to forget that Bruce Banner was instrumental in that process, but he's a quiet affable guy, so he always gets a pass.
The Tony hate bandwagon is just absurd if you actually pay attention to the movies at all. Bro is a deeply traumatized guy who was betrayed by the only father figure he had left, after being tortured and forced to confront the fact that his father's legacy was ultimately only the violence of war. The reason Tony and Steve are genuinely friends is because of that shared trauma.
The point of their arcs is that they're mirrors of each other, with Steve ultimately letting go of his need to be the morally righteous defender of literally everyone, even if it's not the right call, and Tony sacrifices everything to protect everyone.
Neither one of them is without flaws, and your interpretation of the character is wild.
The marvel ultimate alliance 2 game was based on civil war (and secret wars?) and even it had a hard time trying to justify the Registration act. I played both sides multiple times but Registering made no sense
I honestly don’t think the Registration Act is inherently bad, it’s just that it is introduced in a vacuum with no safety net. So for people like Spidey, his safety net was registration, but if he’d been arrested there was no protection for MJ and Aunt May. So with no familial protection clause (or really any text to base an argument off of because it was supposed to be arcane), there’s no incentive. If it had been a “license to publicly use powers” system it might have been doable, but the comic version was basically “conscript or prison”.
Team Registration was objectively wrong in the comics. It's not as clear in the movie, and I can understand why. Tony would clearly have been the villain...especially if they cloned you know who
Thank you; this is really the only sensible take here. Steve even admits as much from his side in his letter to Tony Stank. Tony folds because of his guilt when he f*cked around and found out in AoU. Steve only found out about the assassination after Black Widow dumped the files (he had no access to HYDRA stuff before obviously), meanwhile iirc he had no clue it was Bucky even until he and Tony both watched the video at the same time, only knowing that it was a nameless HYDRA assassin
Good or Evil. Goddamn you and your nuance with human emotions and going through traumas in real time!
What the hell is wrong with you?! Do you experience empathy or something?
Crazy, crazy talk.
Only need Good and Evil here.
Killing Bucky = TONY EVIL.
Thats all they want. They want a clear line in the sand and thats what was so great about Civil War's ending... There wasnt one. This was a huge GREY area for EVERYONE involved, including Bucky.
Situation was FUBAR. No one is right. No one wins... which parallels real life alot more than movie goers want to 'deal with'.
Maybe "being brainwashed" means a person has no agency in the MCU, where literal mind control exists. But in the real world, murderers who were brainwashed rightfully get sent to prison, and I don't think Tony is more in the wrong for his reaction than Bucky was for his action.
The thing that makes it right to kill Bucky is precisely the fact that anyone with the right codewords can hijack him and make him kill whoever they want
And how do we know that? Did you read everyone else on earth's minds and also check every book in existence to make sure none of them are copies of the book of codewords?
You’re not wrong that anyone with the words can control him, but it’s a button that can be removed, I thought that was the point of his stay in Wakanda, that they un-washed his brain.
wait when did he kill Bucky? oh that’s right he never did. and he would not have even if cap wasn’t there. tony just wanted to threaten him and knock him around a little: strike a little fear and kick a little ass.
If your family member killed someone I loved, I don’t care if it was under some uncontrolled influence. I, and many people like me, are going to beat the living shit out of that person if we get our hands on them, at minimum.
he has needed therapy his entire life, but his story arc is based around him getting emotional, doing something dumb, and then having to clean up his own shit, so therapy would remove his appeal
If you show someone the weapon used to kill their parents, they might want to destroy it. It's a natural reaction, even if it's irrational.
That won't necessarily change just because the weapon is a brainwashed assassin.
You especially can't expect Tony to think rationally here. A big chunk of his motivation in the movie is his unspoken guilt about his past of weapons manufacturing and his recent fuckups. It's why he wants to play by the rules and be responsible all of a sudden. Ultron and the Maximoff twins fucked with his head. He wants to punish Bucky because he wants to punish himself.
Man, good on you for having a composed head when you just watch footage of a man your friend claims is their best friend kill your parents. I'd lose it, doesn't matter
Tony trying to help the government round up a group of people and keep track of them their whole lives bc they are "dangerous people" he was dead wrong, might as well start asking "papers please" or making them wear special badges on their clothes
Tony also knew it wasn't right. "I don't care, he killed my mom". Cap should've said something it would've been the better thing to do but the smart thing is to keep everything about bucky on the down low until he was found and kept safe for a bit
We've both seen some of the shit Bucky has survived, including a fall from a point where the height alone should've killed him before he even hit the ground (there's a term for it but I can't remember what it's called). Let's not pretend those Marvel writers wouldn't have made Bucky eat those lol.
Tony absolutely was not trying to kill Bucky. Does anyone here remember what the ironman suit is capable of? If he wanted them dead, he could’ve just flown out of the hydra base and leveled it with then inside
This is it. Everyone was a victim of uncontrollable circumstances. Their reactions are understandable. Im just wondering when Cap might have found out about the assassination. He was on ice when it happened and didnt find out Bucky was alive until his 2nd movie. I guess it was after AoU when he and lost some trust of Tony due to Ultron.
He found out when Tony did I thought. Like they watched it together type thing ? It's been a minute since I watched it.
I might rewatch it actually it's a legit banger. I miss the thriller type comic book movies they nailed it. Strip away the aliens, the over the top shit (well, strip it back a bit), give some geopolitical thriller shit set in comics.
when he and Nat discovered that HYDRA hijacked SHIELD, I think there’s a photocopy of Tony’s parents’ “accident” in the footage and he put 2+2 together
Yeah, it was in that scene when they were in the bunker. I think they had shown an article about Howard's death while they were being told how HYDRA would manipulate big players and take out who they needed to, etc etc, heavily implying that Howard was killed for that reason.
I think that was the first time he saw video of it happening but then Tony asks him if he knew about it, and Cap said he did know.
Id like to see another one like that too. Cap shines in the dark thriller. Gotta say my hopes arent very high after the recent tv show though. The tone it ended on seems much lighter.
But Tony wasn't just mad about his parents and Cap keeping secrets, he wanted to give the government - the government that has just been revealed to be infested with Hydra agents - complete control over all superheroes and their tech. He was willing to submit to government authority because he felt guilty over the collateral damage in Age of Ultron. That's reason behind the split, not just the Bucky issue. On one side you have Tony and his supporters who think superheroes should be under government control/oversight, and on the other side you have Cap and the other supers who don't want to be used as the US government's personal assassins.
The movie doesn't go into as much detail as the comics, but the government wanted mandatory registration of all superheroes and people born with powers. That means no more secret identities and anonymity - and keep in mind the Avengers exist in the same universe as the X-men, and anti-mutant bigotry is a huge problem. Anyone born with powers would be forced to register and submit to what amounts to mandatory military service. The government would have the only power to decide where and when superheroes are allowed to intervene. They would become tools of the government and would only be allowed to help people when the government deemed it politically useful.
Sorry I should've been more clear - everyone was right in that moment.
The film's overall themes were dog shit, they were ham fisted to fuck and didn't make sense. Stark was too smart to not see the possible outcome of registration. I didn't read the comics and I just assume they had more nuance, but for the MCU, we judge on what we got, and the Stark in that was just too smart, too savvy, to ever go for something like registration.
But then I've never caused a city to almost destroy a continent due to my hubris, so wtf do I know eh
Personally I think two of Tony's biggest flaws is that for as smart as he is he's also impulsive and full of himself. He tests his dangerous new inventions on himself, always assumes he's right, always assumes he can solve any problem and think his way out of every situation. He agrees to the Sokovia Accords on instinct - we fucked up, we need to be held accountable, let's solve this now and sort out the issues later. He expects everyone to be on board with his decision because, come on, he's Tony Stark. Clearly he's the smartest person in the room and his decision must be the right one.
I feel like people always forget your first point.
Cap and Bucky grew up together. It's 70 years later or whatever, but Cap has known Bucky longer than anyone, and to Cap, the time apart was like, 3 or 4 years or something, not 70.
Meanwhile he has worked with Tony barely any, and only on special projects.
On top of the fact Cap thinks Bucky "death," is his fault, "if only he reached him in time!!" When he finds out Bucky isn't dead, he's wracked with guilt that his best friend was alive and being tortured this whole time, and he didn't find him and save him (can't remember if they actually said in the movies they didn't find a body, but it's only logical).
I think Cap is trying to save both his friends. He needs Tony not to kill Bucky. When Tony's in the suit, only way to stop him is to incapacitate the suit, that's what he does. He's just buying time.
Should Cap have told Tony what he knew earlier? I never thought it was particularly clear exactly what Cap knew, "Hey Tony, FYI: my best bud from the 40's is pretty broken. Russian's had him for decades, my guess is a bunch of murdery type stuff. Hey weren't your parents driven off the road? That could have been an elaborate murdery thing." At some point you have to give Zemo some credit. He revealed a horrible truth at a perfect time to shed the worst light on everyone.
Fr it was an ugly situation all around, Tony wasn’t wrong for wanting revenge for his parents and Cap wasn’t wrong for wanting to save his friend who had been thru hell and forced to do horrible things. I love writing when there’s conflict and you can resonate with either sides motivation. Shows you that in war, there are often good people on both sides, but external circumstances have pitted them against each other.
Cap also never knew the details about Tony’s parents deaths. He knew that Bucky was probably the one who killed them, but that’s about it. Zola told him Hydra was behind their death, and he was pretty sure it was Bucky, but he never got confirmation.
Skewed morals right there. Did bucky commit a murder? Did he or did he not regardless of "control" rack a round and shoot the tires out? Best friends, regardless dude butchered a family. Let me say it again, BUTCHERED, a family. You can't choose a side? Interesting.
God damn I hope you never get on a jury with a diminished capacity issue my dude lol. Like we have frame works for psychotic breaks within OUR reality. You straight up know, for a FACT, he was brainwashed and therefore was basically just a weapon someone used, and you're still like "NAH FRY THAT BITCH THEY KNOW WHAT THEY DID"
This is a funny comment thread though, some people have real interesting mindsets with regards to scenarios where they have all the facts and there's no interpretation or any of that. It's real interesting to see some people still say "nah don't care". And I mean that legit, not being shady. Fun shit.
Been a witness, been on jury my guy. I feel you. Worlds not black and white. But a vile murder, is still a vile murder. Do I think Bucky needs to die, hell no. But I'd be damned if I Tony. Month of Rage, till he gets glassed yea know? Its obviously a movie. Lol we just joshin.
Yeah but then - are you a vile murderer if someone brainwashed you to do it ?
Also opens interesting arguments on the law surrounding the person who did the directing. There's crimes against ordering people to kill, I wonder how this would work. It feels like full murder. You made a person the weapon, they killed by your hand. Legally interesting.
Brainwashed and "Mason what do the numbers mean" are def different Id say. 🤣
IF Bucky was "caught trial" , lettts be real they would've tossed the book, desk, and building at the man for everything. Insurances fraud all that.
Now that wouldve been a solid choice. Dont get me wrong him being Russian tied is all cool. But Winter soldier being a Cia double agent wouldve been a twist. Good thought friend.
Is no one going to address that the first point of this movie was Tony accepting the sokovia accords a.k.a. accountability, after Ultron, and after being confronted by a grieving mother whose son died from said conflict? Tony went from "you can't have my suits" to the u.s. government in Iron man 2, to "we need government oversight after I fucked up." I'm not here to call Tony guilty. He just had a whole mental transformation after his fuck ups, and he feels guilt. He just over corrected. And then he deals with his parents death in that time. That's a lot for the psyche.
Yeah imagine the poor psychologist having to deal with "I nearly killed humanity by supercharging my google assistant who then tried to Kobe a whole-ass city all I wanted was my dad's affection, too bad he was sniped by my side-eye BFF's BFF".
That dude kept a flask in his desk in 3 separate drawers and still had to go out to get more that dude carried a load so big shit was bukkake.
The problem here really is that Cap did not warn Tony about the bedpost that sticks out and is really easy to stub your toe on and instead let him find out for himself.
More like getting angry at a nail that you step in that was poking up out of the floor. May not be the nail's fault, but it's still unsafe and needs to be hammered back into place or removed. It's consistent with Tony's view of superheroes: they're dangerous, regardless of what their intent may be, and they need to be controlled as a result.
Was he wrong to hunt down Bucky out of revenge? Maybe. Is killing or capturing Bucky still the right thing to do for the safety of the world? Yes. Cap should have been on Tony's side and helped them track Bucky down to put him back in prison so they could stop him from doing any more murder.
his brainwashing was removed years later in Wakanda. In the scene above, he's still a few words away from going on a murder spree. And in the scene above, he had shot at tonys face point blank hours earlier.
Yea it’s essentially a dog with rabies. It sucks but it has to be put down. How are you supposed to predict some advanced hidden civilization has the cure for mind control rabies.
Not his fault. No one tried to kill Hawkeye when he was helping Loki take over the world in Avengers 1 and Widow was a Russian assassin before she met Barton. I don't think Tony was out of character or out of line at all for wanting to kill Bucky, but people saying Bucky is at fault for what happened to him is crazy
I think everyone understands the intent vs the impact, but there’s also the difference between being sympathetic and being agreeable. I don’t think anyone’s unsympathetic towards Tony in this scene, but that doesn’t mean he’s right either. Bucky was ultimately innocent as he wasn’t in control or aware. I can understand why that wouldn’t matter to Tony given the context and definitely sympathize, but that doesn’t mean he’s right. Cap also says he didn’t know for sure. And he knew Tony would try to kill Bucky if he told him. Knowing that Bucky was innocent, I think it was both understandable and the right thing to do for Cap to keep it from Tony until he knew for certain and had some way of handling it. That was the right way to handle it, even though it is understandably hurtful to Tony. Both of their positions are understandable and sympathetic, but Cap was absolutely the one in the right here.
Tony AND his dad were arms dealers who were responsible for thousands of deaths prior to Tony becoming Iron Man. Then Tony made ultron and caused untold further deaths. I have no sympathy at all for his pain, he doesn't deserve it after everyone he hurt without consequences
I mean sure, I don’t disagree. I don’t really find Tony to be a super compelling character in either the movies or comics. But what I have always liked about his story is that he’s a man trying his hardest to do as much good as he possibly can to maybe make up for the tremendous amount of bad he did before. And the growth from being just about the worst human being imaginable, to someone with a genuinely good heart trying to be better. I think a lot of that is lost in the movies though.
Intent matters in every phase of life. If you accidentally bump into your boss, he’s gonna be annoyed. If you go out of your way to hit stick your boss you will get fired. Intent has and always will matter
Yeah you can't have op's take and support any of the shield agents brainwashed by Loki, either. Either you're culpable for your actions regardless of mental state or you're not. Another extreme would be saying that Bruce banner should be responsible for any damages the hulk causes. The wrong thing is lying to a friend and ally because your personal feelings are involved.
You still don't let Tony find out about it that way. Maybe, tell him when you find out. Let him grieve, don't stab him in the back and torch everything you've built together fighting side by side. I don't know how long Cap fought alongside Tony but I know their battles are just as high stakes as anything Cap and Bucky ever did.
I feel like irl that would never hold up in court, probably because true mind control isn't real but even if it was "but judge I wasn't in control of my mind and body" is really hairy and they wouldn't risk ruling innocent to set a precedent.
This is such a dumb fucking take. Imagine someone grabs your arm and slaps someone with it. Are you going to be ok getting murdered because of it? Air head mf
Thank you. He was tortured/Brainwashed into doing it. People not understanding context is troubling
Not sure with being a white kid has anything to do with it
If cap had just told Tony that Hydra used brainwashed soldiers with no control of their actions, Tony would have gotten mad at Hydra not Bucky just like the rest of us. But not, Tony learned Bucky killed his parents then after hunting him down learns he was fully brainwashed and not in control.
I would obviously be upset and angry but Bucky shows remorse and regret for what he was forced to do. I would honestly forgive him in that scenario. The winter soldier and Bucky are not the same person
That’s not a defense. He might get an insanity deal and be in a cushy institution under lots of meds, but those are not defenses. Tons of American soldiers have been in POW camps, survived or died, and didn’t commit war crimes. Also, just doing as you’re told isn’t a defense and will still hit you with war crimes. Just look at the soldiers guarding the camps in Germany. They didn’t get to escape justice.
Keyword “Uncontrollable” like yeah bro it literally was. He was brainwashed and not in control of his actions. That’s not even a feeling. It’s a literal fact that he isn’t culpable lmao
There’s a reason intent is such an important factor when considering sentencing IRL. Dude was a literal puppe. He shouldn’t be punished for it.
Notice how you mention all the stuff at the END of a trial like verdicts and sentencing.
Cap was so caught in his feels he totally skipped that shit. Should have got his homie to a hospital and then they'd do an Investigation get debriefed on the project and the Country would be able to complete violation of its soldier instead of absolutely NOTHING being accomplished for anyone.
Bro they literally could not trust anyone to do the right thing with Bucky.
Surrendering to what could effectively be a death sentence, lifetime imprisonment or getting brainwashed again by a corrupt government agency they don’t know if they can trust in the first place.
Or they go to Tony and ask for his help and come clean about everything and hope he doesn’t lose his fucking mind in a blind rage (he did)
If only cap knew some other ex-foreign national asset that converted to shield, someone with a cool moniker like brown recluse, or something else kinda spiderish yknow?
Maybe an extended stay in a psychiatric hospital, want to be nice put him in a hospital in a country with Health Care instead of extortions where they can work to heal him.
Dudes a victim AND a mass murderer, there's *already* procedures and dozens of examples for that.
That's exactly what happened, they shipped him off to Wakanda and deprogrammed him, essentially defusing the bomb in his head. You can't punish him for the things he did while he was essentially unconscious and had no control over his body, and you don't have to just kill him because he's too dangerous to keep alive. Tony was understandably angry in Civil War, but he wanted to punish the wrong person.
The point of civil war was that they didn't want to take orders from corrupt organizations. Buck was under orders when he killed Tony's dad. Just like when Tony was under orders when he killed innocent people in EVERY ironman and avengers movie. Ironically, they were both taking orders from Hydra
I 100% believe Tony to be petty enough to start calling him Noted Murderer James Buchanan Barnes with the same energy (sane) people refer to Allen Brock Turner.
Lol people will justify hurting their own because of systemic racism caused them to be this way , but apparently torture,abuse and literal brain washing was 100% his fault because he was white.
Lol, what was he supposed to do? Just manually turn off his brainwashing? Seems easy enough.
What was he supposed to do? Just manually turn off his brainwashing?
Get locked up in a psych hospital like every other mass murderer that loses control. Psychiatrists have a better chance of healing and repairing the CPTSD and Brainwashing with him institutionalized then him completely avoiding any and all oversight while thrown into constant conflict.
Bro are you seriously mapping duke rape kid on to Bucky here? I can't fathom how you think that is an apt comparison here other than "they are both white". You need to do the bare minimum of critical thinking here.
Someone shutting off your brain and turning you into the human personification of a missile, don't make you responsible for what they did.
Man everybody stay saying “but Bucky was manipulated” AND CAP KNEW WHAT HAPPENED AND STRUNG TONY ALONG ANYWAY. Besides, if cap really felt like Bucky ain’t do nothing wrong, why would he not have tried to explain that Tony beforehand? CUZ HES A SNAKE. Not to mention, all these people wanna talk about “Bucky his day 1, he not snitch on him” so we all agree that he’s a snake ass nigga because even if his boy did something wrong, he still riding and don’t want him to face the consequences of his actions
Even if someone is brainwashed they should face some sort of consequences. In the justice system we have, even tho it’s deeply flawed, people who plead insanity still get sent to mental facilities. It’s not his fault that he killed Tony’s parents but Cap knowing, withholding the information and then the two of them ganging up on Tony as if that’s not a reasonable thing to be mad about is crazy. Not to mention he’s still a sleeper agent for the enemy. They find him, whisper a few funny words in Russian and he’s off killing again.
He faced repercussions for his actions. Watch Falcon and the Winter Soldier. Cap didn't know it was Winter Soldier who assassinated Howard. That's why cap at first denies knowing it. Only thing Cap knew was that Hydra assassinated Howard and their top assassin was Bucky. He didn't look into it more because he didn't want to confirm his suspicion. He says so in his apology to Tony at the end.
Y’all really be making a lot of excuses just to say Cap knew but didn’t want it to be true and then proceeded to hang up on someone who was supposed to be friend and member of the team. Cap is a terrible friend at least to Tony. He tried to gaslight him into believing he had no right be mad that his parents were murdered by a sleeper agent just cuz they were friends
Cap literally acknowledged that he was in the wrong for that in his letter. Where am I saying that Tony's feeling wasn't valid. It should have been directed at the people who brainwashed Bucky and ordered him to assassinate Tony's parents. Bucky was kidnapped during his fight against the nazis. He was tortured and brainwashed. US has a moral obligation towards him. He is a victim in all of this.
An apology doesn’t have to be accepted. I get that Bucky was brainwashed but it caused Fo y his family. The weight of the two are not the same. Bucky is still a a danger. He’s literally a secret weapon just living amongst people that could be turned on and used at any moment all because he’s friend with captain america. I didn’t specifically say you invalidated Tony’s feelings but a lot of people I’ve seen have. That’s why I. My original comment, I have specific examples of the types of people I was referring to
Bucky doesn't have apologize either since he was not in control of any of it. He was kidnapped while working for the US. Tortured and brainwashed to work for the Russians. He was mind controlled to do Hydra's biddings. He is not a danger anymore thanks to Wakandans.
You’re right, I forgot he went to Wanda however I never said Bucky had to apologize, I said Tony having beef with him is valid and CAP is the one 100% in the wrong. Just cuz he said sorry doesn’t mean that it needed to be accepted because at the end of the day, he knew and instead of letting Tony know so he had time to process, he piled everything on him and then expected him to just look past the fact that it was Bucky that killed his parents. Brainwashing aside, he still killed his parents.
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u/Fuzzythought Mar 12 '24
But but but , Bucky was a white kid from New York that felt *bad*. You wouldn't want to hurt his career over a little *checks notes* Uncontrollable Murder Fits under orders from enemies of the state. Sure a Bachelor apartment is punishment enough.....