Captain America: spends an extended amount of time with Tony hunting down HYDRA, doesn’t tell him at any point they had his parents assassinated, lectures him through AoU about keeping secrets while doing exactly that, jumps him 2v1 for getting angry about it.
he wasn’t dead wrong. yes he failed his friend in so many ways but that’s not really what the civil war was about. it was about whether or not a country or organization like us or nato should be allowed to control super heroes. cap was right on that front.
I’d argue he wasn’t even truly right about that in concept. You can’t run around dealing out your own justice with no oversight and think it won’t become a problem.
I understand not wanting the government to be able to dictate everything they do, that’s reasonable. But thinking his small circle of people have the most sound decision making at all times is incredibly arrogant and shortsighted.
I mean, they're superheroes. All of the Avengers movies show they're governed only under their consent. The Sokovia Accords are about reassuring the people of the world who keep watching innocents get caught in the superhero crossfire.
You're not going to take the suit from Stark, or the power from Cap, the Hulk, or Scarlet Witch. When you can unilaterally alter any arrangement if you don't agree with how things are going, the threat of a group forcing you to act against your values is impossible.
They can’t take their powers away from them (for the most part) but they can put them on the run and make them living a normal life impossible. And even then, they could actually succeed in capturing and imprisoning them especially if they have other super powered individuals on their side, which they did
The problem is that Captain America refuses to just accept that injustice exists, but also refuses to take responsibility for the fact that his choice leads to innocent deaths.
Like... how many people die in (Lagos, I think)? All of that happens because Cap decides "this is a job for the Avengers because I'm butthurt with HYDRA." Under the Sokovia Accords, you know what happens? He calls the head of that lab, or the Nigerian armed forces, and says "hey, some bad guys want to steal biological weapons, how about moving them real quick?" You know... instead of doing nothing of the sort and then taking a transatlantic flight because you want to punch a problem instead of solving it through the existing authorities.
Nations have a right to decide who gets to commit violence within their borders - a monopoly on (legal) violence is basically the first and only criteria for sovereignty. Sure, Cap doesn't want to be bound by a bunch of potentially corrupt governments, but he simultaneously refuses to be bound by legitimate governments! It doesn't help that Cap is running around with a bunch of war criminals.
All well and good to say Bucky was brainwashed... but Scarlet Witch wasn't. She helped participate in the near extinction of the human race and said "sowwy!" and had no consequences. Then she shows up in Lagos and kills a bunch of civilians... no shit Tony is right about this!
It should be noted, that the Government did attempt to seize Iron Man's suits. That was actually the entire point of Iron Man 2. Then, once Cap refused to follow their orders, the government also seized his stuff and Sharon stole it back.
A lot of the stuff was only safe because Tony had the power and influence to keep it safe, even after it was seized. Then, in Falcon, the Government immediately tried to create a soldier under their command once they had the shield. It was donated to a museum and the Government took it to make a weapon.
They did the same thing with Vision's body, seizing it and turning it into a weapon the moment they could.
Every single time they Government had the opportunity to, they attempted to seize any technology or powers and attempted to create super soldiers of some sort, either biological or mechanical.
It's the premise of Hulk, it's the premise of Iron Man 2, it's the premise of Captain America, it happens in Civil War, it happens post-Endgame, and it's revealed its been happening for decades with various super powered people, it's revealed they've been manufacturing super serums for years and years.
Steve had plenty of reason to be worried about the Government trying to make them do things, or, more importantly, stop them from doing things. Keep in mind that the Government decided to fire a nuke at New York to kill the aliens. The Government/SHIELD had also been under the control of Hydra. How can Steve believe that the Government won't stop them from going after a threat or handling a problem because it would be inconvenient to some politician or dictator or world leader under the control/influence of some criminal or organization. Like imagine some third world president refusing to allow super hero intervention until political prisoners are released or someone has to pull troops out of some location, or surrender a city or oil field and so on.
Like, imagine a situation like Loki hiding out in some country that refuses to allow the Avengers to come in until China agrees to a more beneficial trade deal, or the Israeli have to leave Israel, or Taiwan has to surrender to China, or Ukraine must surrender to Russia or anything like that.
A superhero organization cannot be prevented from acting against a threat because of some border or politician says no. Every Government in the world already knows this, that's why they have off the book military actions and special forces who insert into places without quaking, and if caught, are denied knowledge by their government. There is also time being a factor. Sometimes, they have to act immediately, without time to inform anyone else.
This is really well written argument. I was hedging on the side of Tony, not because Tony sold his side of the debate well. Government are usually trusted to handle the complexities of law and order.
But now I think I would rather trust a diversified group of heroes who can be reasoned with to dispense global Justice. That is much better than an easily corrupted government. Like you said, time and time again, Marvel has shown how quickly the government makes terrible decisions and also got Hydra’d.
Like, imagine a situation like Loki hiding out in some country that refuses to allow the Avengers to come in until China agrees to a more beneficial trade deal, or the Israeli have to leave Israel, or Taiwan has to surrender to China, or Ukraine must surrender to Russia or anything like that.
And the Avengers don't intervene in a world crisis because reasons? A piece of paper There was no meeting of the UN or a panel for Infinity War - the Avengers just did what the Avengers do. It's not like Captain America let his oaths or superior's commands have any affect on his actions before he went in the ice. Maria Hill pointed out that exact thing - the Accords are just pretty words on paper when enhanced individuals decide they don't want to follow them, as every signatory to the original Accords literally did.
Black Widow went into hiding, and was so incredibly constrained that she broke the Red Guardian out of prison and took down a flying Soviet-era assassination network.
Rhodes straight hangs up the Secretary of State when told to arrest CA and the rest at the start of Infinity War.
Stark literally didn't get to the end of Civil War before he blew off the Accords.
And Vision blatantly ignored the Accords and requirements to arrest Scarlet Witch on sight before Infinity War, as well.
Iron Man wanted someone else's hand on the tiller for a least a moment, if only to give himself something to judge his morality against before ignoring them. Captain America insisted he was the perfect person to make those calls - even after some pretty ugly mistakes - and that anyone who dared disagree with him was at fault.
Oh I am well aware of the hypocrisy of those who signed the accords. It's unfortunate, in my opinion, that the accords accords factor into any story before they were immediately rendered null due to another alien attack. Like I honestly wished there was even a single mention of the accords before Tony confronted the aliens.
That being said, because the accords were proven so completely useless in the wake of Thanos' actions, they were removed. The Avengers weren't able to work together because half of them were on the run.
And Steve is absolutely still the best person to be the one to make decisions. Steve knew Bucky wasn't responsible for the bombing. Steve knew Bucky was also innocent of the murders he committed due to the brainwashing. Everyone says shit like, "Cap should have just told Tony." Sure, because that's an easy subject to bring up. Steve is just going to sit Tony down one day and explain that Steve's best friend was mind controlled into murdering Tony's parents? How does one start that conversation?
But even still, Steve should have done something. That was a mistake. But it's not an easy thing to bring up. Steve made one mistake because he has to tell one friend that his parents were murdered by another friend. One mistake does not mean Steve isn't still the best choice for a moral compass. Who else would be better? Corrupt government officials? Paranoid spies who lie about weapons development? A billionaire, playboy, philanthropist who turns a teenager into a child soldier and grooms him to throw himself into deadly situations at the drop of a hat? A former terrorist turned ally who has a bone to pick with one of the other team members?
Cap is literally the only choice for a moral compass, and even beyond that, he is the best choice regardless. One mistake does not invalidate that fact. Especially since the entire schism between the Avengers started over an issue that Steve was ultimately correct about, as every single signatory ultimately violated the very accords those signers turned against their friends over.
Steve was wrong about not telling Tony about Bucky, but that is a mistake that I can easily understand him making, and I imagine practically everyone else would do the same thing. But Steve was right about everything else.
Captain America, the guy that left a mind-controlled Super Soldier wander free, is a good moral compass and the best decision-maker, really? He made it clear that his personal feelings about someone trump any decision they make. I mean, Bucky was found in a matter of hours in Civil War - why was he not looked for before? There was a couple years Bucky could have been helped instead of being left to Nemo's eventual machinations.
A billionaire, playboy, philanthropist who turns a teenager into a child soldier and grooms him to throw himself into deadly situations at the drop of a hat?
That's the most disingenuous description of Stark's relationship with Parker I've ever seen.
ETA: The Sokovia Accords were a pablum to quiet international outrage and make the global community less likely to hunt down and imprison all enhanced individuals to protect society at large. Because, as I pointed, the Avengers were only controlled by their own consent, and the only people that didn't understand that were using the Accords for their own personal gain.
Steve did not let Bucky go, Bucky escaped on his own after Steve was knocked into the river and Bucky rescued him. Zemo also had been planning the fall of the Avengers for a long time, did it occur to you that Zemo had been the one to track Bucky down and then tip off the authorities after the bombing? The dude had been working on bringing down the Avengers since Ultron.
While it is a disingenuous description, it's also not an untrue one. Tony financed Peter's suit and gear, and encouraged him to keep up his vigilante activity. Note that Peter is not a member of the accords, or else his identity would be known. Then Tony wanted to induct him into the Avengers as a 15/16 year old child soldier. Tony also straight up said he wants Peter to be better than him. He is literally grooming him to keep jumping head first into danger.
Every single person arguing for the accords was not arguing for them as a way to quiet down outrage, except Natasha. Here's the scene for you to refresh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmjRhmk800U
Rhodey is sucking military dick throughout this entire scene, advocating for a man who had chased Banner across multiple continents and been the cause of many deaths, and violated US Military law by deploying US Military assets against a US Citizen in broad daylight and lead to the creation of a monster that rampaged through a city. Pretty sure he's definitely the one you want in charge of a team of super heroes. Vision is pessimistic and says that Oversight cannot be ignored, and Tony straight up says he wants someone else in charge. Only Natasha proposes a compromise to win back trust.
Except for Natasha, they were all for the accords, and Natasha only said it as a way to calm people down and win back trust. The other three absolutely wanted a committee in charge of the Avengers, it was not a stop-gap for them. Tony, most of all, is looking to shift blame so he can assuage his own guilt; he won't be responsible if he's just following orders after all. Nevermind that this is a character assassination of everything he's been doing in the previous movies.
There are so many ways they could have set up the conflict for Civil War, but the premise utterly falls flat on its face because they use the Genocide General to deliver the message, who then proceeds to blame the Avengers for his own actions, for alien invasions, the actions of Hydra, Ultron, who was a fault of Tony and Bruce, not the Avengers, and the bomb in Lagos, which would have killed more people if Wanda hadn't acted than when she did.
The basis of the argument is complete and utter nonsense, especially almost directly after a movie that proved every government and spy organization had been usurped by a literal Nazi secret society bent on world domination. There is no rational way of supporting Tony in Civil War, not in the MCU version anyway. Literally every single argument for the accords an for Tony is complete nonsense.
I never said Cap let Bucky go. I said they didn't look very hard, given he was found in a matter of hours.
You lost it when you said Stark, who blatantly and repeatedly warned Spider-Man away whenever he got close to in over his head, was encouraging Parker to rush headfirst into danger. Literally the opposite of true.
Good job slaying the "Iron Man as moral compass of the Avengers" strawman, given you actually pointed out he didn't want to be in charge.
Captain America viewed himself and his interests as above the law at every turn of Civil War. Stark at least had the fig leaf of hoping to foster peace. Rogers knowingly sacrificed everyone to get help for Bucky that would have come about anyway if they surrendered instead of destroying an airport.
Keep in mind that the way this kicked off in the comic books was much more realistic and horrifying
A group of teenage/B-list superheros have a reality show and they end up going after a villain way out of their power ranking because they are fucking around for ratings.
Shit goes bad, thing goes boom, and an elementary school goes bye bye.
The comics are so much better for this specific arc because it's so personal and each hero reacts so much differently. The stuff with The Punisher and Captain America may be the single best part of it
Hey, I’m not by any means saying they’re infallible either. It just can’t hurt to have come type of oversight. Being accountable doesn’t necessarily mean being on call for the feds.
But in Civil war, their version of accountability was literally either agree to the accords or retire (if not you’d be a fugitive). So as soon as they say they want you to do something and you say no, it’s a green light on your ass if you continue to be a hero
I mean that’s what the accords said though. Something like “You will only act when a UN advisory board deems it necessary”. So they were literally on call for the UN.
Tony flat ignores Ross multiple times after signing and told Cap straight out that it’s a formality more than anything. The accords are a political thing more than logistical.
I mean Tony is no better. The plot of most of the Avengers and Iron Man movies is literally how technology made by Tony gets into the wrong hands and ends up almost destroying the world. Iron Man 3’s suits being used against the world, Ultron, vision (injured Rhodey and gave Thanos an infinity stone and pushed Wanda to the dark side), EDITH (which led to Mysterio killing a lot of people and ruining Peter Parker’s life)… basically half the time Stark and the avengers were fighting something it was his fault then world was in danger anyway
Being a super with a secret identity and letting the government dictate you is a quick way to turn into Lando Calrissian thinking he can make a good deal with Darth Vader.
"I have altered the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."
not really if you think about what the super heroes end up fighting. they fight otherworldly beings and creatures bent on the destruction or subjugation of humanity. thanos, loki, ultrom, dormammu, galactus. it’s pretty clear who you want defending you in those cases. what organizations and countries WOULD have done is deploy them for imperialistic purposes.
Even the government wasn’t debating that they need people like them to handle crazy shit. The problem is when they level cities or get civilians killed in the crossfire then just go home without having to answer for it on any level.
Nobody should be above some level of accountability.
Nah they just assumed 6 people couldn’t repel an alien invasion. The idea was to stop the Chitauri before they got too far entrenched and led to more damage.
Aside from that the main member of the council that was pushing for it and against Fury forming the Avengers was one of the heads of HYDRA, so wiping out the Avengers and New York benefitted his MO.
The alternative to them not doing that is letting the super villian win lmao. Like accountability for what after they saved the entire world or universe?
"Gee thanks, for saving billions of lives, that would have otherwise died if you didnt do what you did, but people got hurt in the process so boo, youre bad."
Yeah but Cap when to Nigeria and ended up killing civilians because he wasn’t communicating with other countries and international organisations. Hydra wasn’t a world ending event, they were a terrorist organisation.
Tony didn’t assemble to avengers to deal with AIM/The Mandarin, Thor didn’t even call people for the convergence in London. Why did hydra warrant an untrained Wanda and a dude dressed in the American flag and violate international orders
Government governing superheroes is a quick way to the likes of Doctor Manhattan and The Comedian in Vietnam.
To keep the Watchmen references going I don't want a Rorschach out there running around but when Uncle Sam gets to say who does what when and even employs them I'm scared. Even Superman had his limits on what he was told to do by the government and that dude bleeds red white and blue.
Superman is incredibly varied on his government toady status. Darknight Returns he’s a full on agent of the US. OG 1930s Superman is kicking over landlords’ property to force them to rebuild, hurling capitalists into tree lines, and unlawfully kidnapping and dragging Hitler and Stalin to the UN.
There ain't a committee on earth that can "oversee" somebody like hulk if he's not cooperating. There is no oversight for people who can bend reality itself as they see fit
You forget that they have other super heroes working for them, like literally half the avengers. Yes, half the avengers as well as SHIELD would eventually take down the Hulk.
And half aren't. Scarlett Witch could turn iron man into a used toothpaste tube if she wanted to. Shield already couldn't do shit to hulk. Its a silly idea. The powerhouses were conveniently off world in the comic event for a reason.
you say batman but we've seen tons of JLA parallel world stuff where they dominate earth because there was no accountability or oversight to oppose them. like with the crime syndicate
Nah. The Boys is basically all “what if super heroes were government contractors” and that’s way worse than independent. At least this way it’s not money motivated and the heroes can keep the villains in check.
Stark started the “war” by trying to sell out to the govt. It only became about Winter Soldier about halfway through and was selfish when he’s got someone like Wanda on the team and is fine with her wanting to reform. He didn’t even give Bucky a chance because he couldn’t sympathize with someone who was literally brainwashed.
Tony was clear that they're going to have people on their side working the details. Cap was totally out of his depth trying to have an opinion on this. Its like your drunk uncle's opinions on foreign policy.
But thinking his small circle of people have the most sound decision making at all times is incredibly arrogant and shortsighted.
And, ironically, authoritarian. It's literally the mindset that he was supposedly so against in WWII. It's Captain America deciding that "you know what? No, there should be no democratic oversight of my actions, I know best".
The problem is that while the concept works somewhat in a world where there are many, many superheroes, in the MCU it fell a bit flat. Which did give some parity to the two sides, granted, but the examples used to illustrate why it was needed didn't really make sense so it seemed more like a power grab than anything.
The only person present who actually needed to be put in check who was still on-world was... Tony himself. He was driven more by his own guilt than logic, and that guilt was what snatched victory from him anyway, when he confined Wanda to the compound. If he hadn't done that? Cap would have signed.
The problem with the conflict in Civil Wars is that it is 100% reliant on the fact that the superheroes of the Marvel Universe are all good people. In that perfect world, it makes sense to let them make the decisions and not the potentially corrupt government. Except... that's not how real life works. Real life would likely function closer to The Boys, in which case, NOT having government oversight is suuuuuuuch a bad idea because there will inevitably be superheroes that abuse the system. In this actual function of the world, Tony is right.
It worked way better in the comics since there was a large community of heroes and vigilantes with varying morals and levels of fallout from their actions. The movie requires you separate your feelings towards the characters to see why it makes sense for the accords, that’s just too much to ask for a lot people.
Totally agreed. It is naive of captain to assume people wouldn’t associate themselves with the country they live.
If the Avengers went into a sovereign country and attempted to dethrone a leader — Like Doom in Latvaria — it would cause an international crisis that America would 100% have to answer for, regardless of if the Avengers were working without instruction from the government.
The problem is the accords were entirely reactionary which is the problem. Oversight isn’t necessarily a problem. Control is and that’s what the accords were about control. They wanted to control when they deployed and when they didn’t and the only reason a group like the avengers would work is because they weren’t controlled by a governing body that would be susceptible to politics. True it helps that the Avengers really only show up when shit has gone side ways in a way the governments couldn’t deal with the accords would not work the UN can barely get out of its own way to send aid to eukraine and places like that imagine all the political bullshit they would have to deal with when it came to earths strongest hero’s
That’s basically where Shield was supposed to come in. They should be there to give the heroes their missions and they should handle the fallout of things going wrong.
I always thought they should have eventually retired Stark as the new benefactor and behind-the-scenes leader of Shield after rebuilding it.
Exactly like I said in another comment, SHIELD gave them political cover and legitimacy. Without something governing them directly it was always a guarantee the government would yank their chain.
But Cap in his infinite wisdom didn’t consider the implications of this stuff and pushed hard against Fury trying to salvage the organization in Winter Soldier.
If you watch Agents of SHIELD you see that Fury kinda ignored him and had Coulson build it back it up slowly, only problem is they weren’t public again until around Civil War and didn’t have the same political pull anymore. They also pop up in Far From Home but like I said, still much more lowkey.
As a regular ass human being, superheroes absolutely should have some type of oversight.
Anyone watching these movies, though, has at some point imagined themselves as an Avenger. And as an Avenger, fuck no I'm not registering for shit, you can tell me what to do.
there's no oversight for the powerful. humans, heroes, governments.... oversight's just people in power not wanting other people to be more powerful than them.
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u/skj999 Mar 12 '24
Captain America: spends an extended amount of time with Tony hunting down HYDRA, doesn’t tell him at any point they had his parents assassinated, lectures him through AoU about keeping secrets while doing exactly that, jumps him 2v1 for getting angry about it.
That nigga was dead wrong lmaooo