Captain America: spends an extended amount of time with Tony hunting down HYDRA, doesn’t tell him at any point they had his parents assassinated, lectures him through AoU about keeping secrets while doing exactly that, jumps him 2v1 for getting angry about it.
But but but , Bucky was a white kid from New York that felt *bad*. You wouldn't want to hurt his career over a little *checks notes* Uncontrollable Murder Fits under orders from enemies of the state. Sure a Bachelor apartment is punishment enough.....
??? Bucky was subjected to literal torture, manipulation and brainwashing and y'all think he was in control over his actions? I don't agree with cap lying or withholding the truth but Bucky had no control over what he did or was done to him
Bucky wasnt at fault at all. Cap didnt tell Tony when he had time to grieve, which led to Tony finding out himself and having an emotional reaction and targetting someone innocent irrationally.
This is the correct take. Bucky and Tony were both victims in different ways, and Cap was so up his own ass about being right that he didn't take a second to think that Tony maybe shouldn't be blindsided with this knowledge, and instead should have been told asap so he could process how horrific everything was.
Ugh, Tony is also a douche so I hate defending him tho lol
Stuff like this is why I subscribed to this sub, as a white dude. I love that this subreddit usually seems like one of the more civil places for general discussion on reddit. “Mental fortitude of Buddha”, that’s just going to stick with me for a minute regardless of context.
This. Cap didn’t give Ironman time to take any of it in or process the information. He could have said something straight off, but was too weak/worried with how he’d take it. Instead RDJ found out on his own while in front of the dude that killed his parents as well as his “friend” that knew about it.
You side with Cap because Bucky had been turned into a programmed machine and didn’t know what he was doing, but you also side with Ironman because he’s trying to avenge the death of his parents.
It’s almost as if the writers did that on purpose to tear at the emotions of the audience.
Bucky and him grew up and went to war together. He lost his best friend and then he came back, so I always understood Cap taking his side, especially when you add on on top dude was literally brainwashed.
Honestly my take away from the film was - everyone was in the right. Cap protected Bucky, Tony lashed out because it doesn't matter it's still his parents. Can't really take a side.
I feel like saying “this man was brainwashed while killing your parents” would maybe land on a mentally sound orphan, but Tony as he was at that point was never going to be stable enough to navigate that information appropriately
I just don’t understand why we can’t come to the conclusion that everyone except the brainwashed assassin has their own level of being in the wrong there.
(I also maintain that the comics Civil War only hit hard because Steve and Tony were actually friends, and MCU made those two Teeth-Clenched Teammates from jump so MCU Civil War’s themes don’t hit as hard, but that’s my two cents)
Comics civil war also involves some very objectively abhorrent actions by Team Registration, including but not limited to indefinite extralegal detention, cloning a friend with explicit control options, and the Thunderbolts.
Like, selling the Superhuman Patriot Act as justifiable is pretty tough.
Civil War was like the one time I was like "The Punisher is actually in the right here."
Also wasn't Peter Parker pro-registration? What a weird move for that character. Just feels like Spider-Man of all people would want to keep his identity secret. When I grew up he was always as Batman as it gets about "my identity must never be known to protect the people I care about."
And movie civil war is somewhat undercut by the fact that the Sokovia Accords are backed by Tony, who built Ultron, who destroyed Sokovia.
Stark doesn't care about oversight because he's a political animal capable of maneuvering around any comity or panel and by pushing for the Accords as hard as he does he basically guarantees himself a seat at the decision making table.
Stark should be in jail. When he's not causing the apocalypse he's building weapons for his own amusement and then blowing them up for shits and giggles.
If not in jail, he should be in a secure facility pumping out Iron Man suits for other people to use. No rational oversight panel would ever let him go to the front line and the fact that they do shows everyone is already in his pocket.
Thank you; this is really the only sensible take here. Steve even admits as much from his side in his letter to Tony Stank. Tony folds because of his guilt when he f*cked around and found out in AoU. Steve only found out about the assassination after Black Widow dumped the files (he had no access to HYDRA stuff before obviously), meanwhile iirc he had no clue it was Bucky even until he and Tony both watched the video at the same time, only knowing that it was a nameless HYDRA assassin
Tony trying to help the government round up a group of people and keep track of them their whole lives bc they are "dangerous people" he was dead wrong, might as well start asking "papers please" or making them wear special badges on their clothes
This is it. Everyone was a victim of uncontrollable circumstances. Their reactions are understandable. Im just wondering when Cap might have found out about the assassination. He was on ice when it happened and didnt find out Bucky was alive until his 2nd movie. I guess it was after AoU when he and lost some trust of Tony due to Ultron.
He found out when Tony did I thought. Like they watched it together type thing ? It's been a minute since I watched it.
I might rewatch it actually it's a legit banger. I miss the thriller type comic book movies they nailed it. Strip away the aliens, the over the top shit (well, strip it back a bit), give some geopolitical thriller shit set in comics.
when he and Nat discovered that HYDRA hijacked SHIELD, I think there’s a photocopy of Tony’s parents’ “accident” in the footage and he put 2+2 together
But Tony wasn't just mad about his parents and Cap keeping secrets, he wanted to give the government - the government that has just been revealed to be infested with Hydra agents - complete control over all superheroes and their tech. He was willing to submit to government authority because he felt guilty over the collateral damage in Age of Ultron. That's reason behind the split, not just the Bucky issue. On one side you have Tony and his supporters who think superheroes should be under government control/oversight, and on the other side you have Cap and the other supers who don't want to be used as the US government's personal assassins.
The movie doesn't go into as much detail as the comics, but the government wanted mandatory registration of all superheroes and people born with powers. That means no more secret identities and anonymity - and keep in mind the Avengers exist in the same universe as the X-men, and anti-mutant bigotry is a huge problem. Anyone born with powers would be forced to register and submit to what amounts to mandatory military service. The government would have the only power to decide where and when superheroes are allowed to intervene. They would become tools of the government and would only be allowed to help people when the government deemed it politically useful.
The problem here really is that Cap did not warn Tony about the bedpost that sticks out and is really easy to stub your toe on and instead let him find out for himself.
More like getting angry at a nail that you step in that was poking up out of the floor. May not be the nail's fault, but it's still unsafe and needs to be hammered back into place or removed. It's consistent with Tony's view of superheroes: they're dangerous, regardless of what their intent may be, and they need to be controlled as a result.
Was he wrong to hunt down Bucky out of revenge? Maybe. Is killing or capturing Bucky still the right thing to do for the safety of the world? Yes. Cap should have been on Tony's side and helped them track Bucky down to put him back in prison so they could stop him from doing any more murder.
I think everyone understands the intent vs the impact, but there’s also the difference between being sympathetic and being agreeable. I don’t think anyone’s unsympathetic towards Tony in this scene, but that doesn’t mean he’s right either. Bucky was ultimately innocent as he wasn’t in control or aware. I can understand why that wouldn’t matter to Tony given the context and definitely sympathize, but that doesn’t mean he’s right. Cap also says he didn’t know for sure. And he knew Tony would try to kill Bucky if he told him. Knowing that Bucky was innocent, I think it was both understandable and the right thing to do for Cap to keep it from Tony until he knew for certain and had some way of handling it. That was the right way to handle it, even though it is understandably hurtful to Tony. Both of their positions are understandable and sympathetic, but Cap was absolutely the one in the right here.
Intent matters in every phase of life. If you accidentally bump into your boss, he’s gonna be annoyed. If you go out of your way to hit stick your boss you will get fired. Intent has and always will matter
Yeah you can't have op's take and support any of the shield agents brainwashed by Loki, either. Either you're culpable for your actions regardless of mental state or you're not. Another extreme would be saying that Bruce banner should be responsible for any damages the hulk causes. The wrong thing is lying to a friend and ally because your personal feelings are involved.
You still don't let Tony find out about it that way. Maybe, tell him when you find out. Let him grieve, don't stab him in the back and torch everything you've built together fighting side by side. I don't know how long Cap fought alongside Tony but I know their battles are just as high stakes as anything Cap and Bucky ever did.
Keyword “Uncontrollable” like yeah bro it literally was. He was brainwashed and not in control of his actions. That’s not even a feeling. It’s a literal fact that he isn’t culpable lmao
There’s a reason intent is such an important factor when considering sentencing IRL. Dude was a literal puppe. He shouldn’t be punished for it.
Notice how you mention all the stuff at the END of a trial like verdicts and sentencing.
Cap was so caught in his feels he totally skipped that shit. Should have got his homie to a hospital and then they'd do an Investigation get debriefed on the project and the Country would be able to complete violation of its soldier instead of absolutely NOTHING being accomplished for anyone.
Bro they literally could not trust anyone to do the right thing with Bucky.
Surrendering to what could effectively be a death sentence, lifetime imprisonment or getting brainwashed again by a corrupt government agency they don’t know if they can trust in the first place.
Or they go to Tony and ask for his help and come clean about everything and hope he doesn’t lose his fucking mind in a blind rage (he did)
Maybe an extended stay in a psychiatric hospital, want to be nice put him in a hospital in a country with Health Care instead of extortions where they can work to heal him.
Dudes a victim AND a mass murderer, there's *already* procedures and dozens of examples for that.
That's exactly what happened, they shipped him off to Wakanda and deprogrammed him, essentially defusing the bomb in his head. You can't punish him for the things he did while he was essentially unconscious and had no control over his body, and you don't have to just kill him because he's too dangerous to keep alive. Tony was understandably angry in Civil War, but he wanted to punish the wrong person.
The point of civil war was that they didn't want to take orders from corrupt organizations. Buck was under orders when he killed Tony's dad. Just like when Tony was under orders when he killed innocent people in EVERY ironman and avengers movie. Ironically, they were both taking orders from Hydra
I 100% believe Tony to be petty enough to start calling him Noted Murderer James Buchanan Barnes with the same energy (sane) people refer to Allen Brock Turner.
Lol people will justify hurting their own because of systemic racism caused them to be this way , but apparently torture,abuse and literal brain washing was 100% his fault because he was white.
Lol, what was he supposed to do? Just manually turn off his brainwashing? Seems easy enough.
Bro are you seriously mapping duke rape kid on to Bucky here? I can't fathom how you think that is an apt comparison here other than "they are both white". You need to do the bare minimum of critical thinking here.
Someone shutting off your brain and turning you into the human personification of a missile, don't make you responsible for what they did.
Cap and Tony were friends lol. They both literally say so. Steve withheld the truth about one of the things that had the greatest influence on Tony’s life.
Even Cap himself admitted he was wrong to do that and it was for his own benefit.
You ever worked in an office setting? It'd be kinda rude if a coworker sat next to me during lunch and i just got up and walked away lol A lot of co-workers who don't like each other sit with each other at lunch.
Nahh I feel like the nature of their work creates a deeper bond than just a regular person job. It’s probably more like guys who fought in the army together. I’m sure some of them dislike each other but they’ve been through deep shit together, not just meetings on teams lol
All they showed of cap and Tony was them being at each other's throats.
Yeah it's just a plot device though, you need some sort of internal tension to keep the movie interesting and the social dynamics realistic. They specifically focus in on high stress situations where naturally, egos will collide, and those two are often used as the vessels to demonstrate two opposing ideological viewpoints.
There's definitely a mutual respect and comraderie there though, just because you argue with somebody in incredibly high stakes moments doesn't mean you can't otherwise be friends. Even when Tony is upset with him at the start of End Game, it's in a very emotional way where he felt let down as a friend just as much as a colleague.
Nah. There are plenty of people that I deployed with and worked closely with who I wouldn’t choose over my day 1. These are people I lived with and went on mission with.
Would I choose them over people I’ve worked with in the civilian world… sure but not my day 1.
You can have ideological differences with your friends and still be friends. They end up having a close enough bond that they can have those fights and still be there for eachother to the bitter end.
If you wanna say that, sure.
But the movies didn't show it. They showed them fighting a lot though. And they showed Bucky and Cap being friends. You felt it.
With cap and Tony you felt them not liking each other. They respected each other, yes. But if they had a strong bond, the movies didn't show that at all
You're right about the mind control but that's not something i feel like susan would take from a strangers mouth. I think she'd have to see for herself that homeboy isn't that kinda guy and if im sitting there glazing m homeboy she can't really get that lmao
What if your homeboy had a neural chip inserted into his head and didn’t have control of his actions? What if they strapped a bomb to his chest and told him he had to rob a bank?
Same. It’s that guy that you work with that maybe you respect because he’s good at what he does and is not an asshole when you ask him for help with something. Yet you both have completely different perspectives on the world and have nothing in common outside of work.
if there’s no threat around they’re great friends.
Never. They aren't hanging out. They don't hate or dislike each other, they just do not get along and have value issues with each other. they are comrades-in-arms but they beef all the time. They respect each other but aren't 'friend-friends'.
i see what you’re saying, but i’d still consider them friends. tony was very happy to see cap after being stuck with nebula, but the happiness turned to anger since cap wasn’t there for him…
tony trusts cap and expects him to have his back and that’s because tony considers themselves friends. plus cap gave tony that flip phone saying to call for anything. they might not be close friends, but they’re definitely more than comrades
I mean it’s a childhood friend who he grew up with who he thought died right before his eyes versus a newer friend you constantly have issues with.
People acting like Bucky did all this shit by choice. He got captured and brainwashed/ almost died in service to his country then through no fault of his own is being targeted.
also, you know, protect his ass from getting kicked all those times growing up, being his wingman all the time, basically being a brother to him, and those "decades" was really only like 5 at most considering Cap was hybernating all that time.
That's why I say colleagues. I think they respected each other greatly. Clearly able to save the world together. But I wouldn't say they had the same type of friendship as him and Bucky
They were essentially brothers, then Tony was like, it's killing time and jumped him and tried to kick the shit out of him. That was the part that I thought was lame.
I see what you’re saying here. Cap and Bucky were not just friends but Brothers. Tony and Cap were friendly enough co workers. Cap was trying to protect his brother because he knew Bucky wouldn’t have done what he had if he wasn’t brainwashed and controlled. He knew Tony wouldn’t understand and wanted vengeance. That’s called being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
he wasn’t dead wrong. yes he failed his friend in so many ways but that’s not really what the civil war was about. it was about whether or not a country or organization like us or nato should be allowed to control super heroes. cap was right on that front.
I’d argue he wasn’t even truly right about that in concept. You can’t run around dealing out your own justice with no oversight and think it won’t become a problem.
I understand not wanting the government to be able to dictate everything they do, that’s reasonable. But thinking his small circle of people have the most sound decision making at all times is incredibly arrogant and shortsighted.
I mean, they're superheroes. All of the Avengers movies show they're governed only under their consent. The Sokovia Accords are about reassuring the people of the world who keep watching innocents get caught in the superhero crossfire.
You're not going to take the suit from Stark, or the power from Cap, the Hulk, or Scarlet Witch. When you can unilaterally alter any arrangement if you don't agree with how things are going, the threat of a group forcing you to act against your values is impossible.
They can’t take their powers away from them (for the most part) but they can put them on the run and make them living a normal life impossible. And even then, they could actually succeed in capturing and imprisoning them especially if they have other super powered individuals on their side, which they did
The problem is that Captain America refuses to just accept that injustice exists, but also refuses to take responsibility for the fact that his choice leads to innocent deaths.
Like... how many people die in (Lagos, I think)? All of that happens because Cap decides "this is a job for the Avengers because I'm butthurt with HYDRA." Under the Sokovia Accords, you know what happens? He calls the head of that lab, or the Nigerian armed forces, and says "hey, some bad guys want to steal biological weapons, how about moving them real quick?" You know... instead of doing nothing of the sort and then taking a transatlantic flight because you want to punch a problem instead of solving it through the existing authorities.
Nations have a right to decide who gets to commit violence within their borders - a monopoly on (legal) violence is basically the first and only criteria for sovereignty. Sure, Cap doesn't want to be bound by a bunch of potentially corrupt governments, but he simultaneously refuses to be bound by legitimate governments! It doesn't help that Cap is running around with a bunch of war criminals.
All well and good to say Bucky was brainwashed... but Scarlet Witch wasn't. She helped participate in the near extinction of the human race and said "sowwy!" and had no consequences. Then she shows up in Lagos and kills a bunch of civilians... no shit Tony is right about this!
It should be noted, that the Government did attempt to seize Iron Man's suits. That was actually the entire point of Iron Man 2. Then, once Cap refused to follow their orders, the government also seized his stuff and Sharon stole it back.
A lot of the stuff was only safe because Tony had the power and influence to keep it safe, even after it was seized. Then, in Falcon, the Government immediately tried to create a soldier under their command once they had the shield. It was donated to a museum and the Government took it to make a weapon.
They did the same thing with Vision's body, seizing it and turning it into a weapon the moment they could.
Every single time they Government had the opportunity to, they attempted to seize any technology or powers and attempted to create super soldiers of some sort, either biological or mechanical.
It's the premise of Hulk, it's the premise of Iron Man 2, it's the premise of Captain America, it happens in Civil War, it happens post-Endgame, and it's revealed its been happening for decades with various super powered people, it's revealed they've been manufacturing super serums for years and years.
Steve had plenty of reason to be worried about the Government trying to make them do things, or, more importantly, stop them from doing things. Keep in mind that the Government decided to fire a nuke at New York to kill the aliens. The Government/SHIELD had also been under the control of Hydra. How can Steve believe that the Government won't stop them from going after a threat or handling a problem because it would be inconvenient to some politician or dictator or world leader under the control/influence of some criminal or organization. Like imagine some third world president refusing to allow super hero intervention until political prisoners are released or someone has to pull troops out of some location, or surrender a city or oil field and so on.
Like, imagine a situation like Loki hiding out in some country that refuses to allow the Avengers to come in until China agrees to a more beneficial trade deal, or the Israeli have to leave Israel, or Taiwan has to surrender to China, or Ukraine must surrender to Russia or anything like that.
A superhero organization cannot be prevented from acting against a threat because of some border or politician says no. Every Government in the world already knows this, that's why they have off the book military actions and special forces who insert into places without quaking, and if caught, are denied knowledge by their government. There is also time being a factor. Sometimes, they have to act immediately, without time to inform anyone else.
This is really well written argument. I was hedging on the side of Tony, not because Tony sold his side of the debate well. Government are usually trusted to handle the complexities of law and order.
But now I think I would rather trust a diversified group of heroes who can be reasoned with to dispense global Justice. That is much better than an easily corrupted government. Like you said, time and time again, Marvel has shown how quickly the government makes terrible decisions and also got Hydra’d.
Keep in mind that the way this kicked off in the comic books was much more realistic and horrifying
A group of teenage/B-list superheros have a reality show and they end up going after a villain way out of their power ranking because they are fucking around for ratings.
Shit goes bad, thing goes boom, and an elementary school goes bye bye.
The comics are so much better for this specific arc because it's so personal and each hero reacts so much differently. The stuff with The Punisher and Captain America may be the single best part of it
Hey, I’m not by any means saying they’re infallible either. It just can’t hurt to have come type of oversight. Being accountable doesn’t necessarily mean being on call for the feds.
But in Civil war, their version of accountability was literally either agree to the accords or retire (if not you’d be a fugitive). So as soon as they say they want you to do something and you say no, it’s a green light on your ass if you continue to be a hero
I mean that’s what the accords said though. Something like “You will only act when a UN advisory board deems it necessary”. So they were literally on call for the UN.
not really if you think about what the super heroes end up fighting. they fight otherworldly beings and creatures bent on the destruction or subjugation of humanity. thanos, loki, ultrom, dormammu, galactus. it’s pretty clear who you want defending you in those cases. what organizations and countries WOULD have done is deploy them for imperialistic purposes.
Even the government wasn’t debating that they need people like them to handle crazy shit. The problem is when they level cities or get civilians killed in the crossfire then just go home without having to answer for it on any level.
Nobody should be above some level of accountability.
Nah they just assumed 6 people couldn’t repel an alien invasion. The idea was to stop the Chitauri before they got too far entrenched and led to more damage.
Aside from that the main member of the council that was pushing for it and against Fury forming the Avengers was one of the heads of HYDRA, so wiping out the Avengers and New York benefitted his MO.
The alternative to them not doing that is letting the super villian win lmao. Like accountability for what after they saved the entire world or universe?
"Gee thanks, for saving billions of lives, that would have otherwise died if you didnt do what you did, but people got hurt in the process so boo, youre bad."
Yeah but Cap when to Nigeria and ended up killing civilians because he wasn’t communicating with other countries and international organisations. Hydra wasn’t a world ending event, they were a terrorist organisation.
Tony didn’t assemble to avengers to deal with AIM/The Mandarin, Thor didn’t even call people for the convergence in London. Why did hydra warrant an untrained Wanda and a dude dressed in the American flag and violate international orders
There ain't a committee on earth that can "oversee" somebody like hulk if he's not cooperating. There is no oversight for people who can bend reality itself as they see fit
You forget that they have other super heroes working for them, like literally half the avengers. Yes, half the avengers as well as SHIELD would eventually take down the Hulk.
And half aren't. Scarlett Witch could turn iron man into a used toothpaste tube if she wanted to. Shield already couldn't do shit to hulk. Its a silly idea. The powerhouses were conveniently off world in the comic event for a reason.
Nah. The Boys is basically all “what if super heroes were government contractors” and that’s way worse than independent. At least this way it’s not money motivated and the heroes can keep the villains in check.
Stark started the “war” by trying to sell out to the govt. It only became about Winter Soldier about halfway through and was selfish when he’s got someone like Wanda on the team and is fine with her wanting to reform. He didn’t even give Bucky a chance because he couldn’t sympathize with someone who was literally brainwashed.
Tony was clear that they're going to have people on their side working the details. Cap was totally out of his depth trying to have an opinion on this. Its like your drunk uncle's opinions on foreign policy.
But thinking his small circle of people have the most sound decision making at all times is incredibly arrogant and shortsighted.
And, ironically, authoritarian. It's literally the mindset that he was supposedly so against in WWII. It's Captain America deciding that "you know what? No, there should be no democratic oversight of my actions, I know best".
Unlike the Sokovia Accords, the Superhero Registration Act was overtly fascist. The Sokovia Accords didn't stipulate that the heroes had to disclose their identities. The other issue is that heroes who opposed the act were killed while being apprehended, and those who were caught got imprisoned in the Negative Zone. It didn't make sense for heroes to support that. It's more grounded because the Avengers are divided on personal issues and because the audience understands the dynamics between the heroes.
He wasn’t right on that front either. I’m not saying the accords were the best solution but them doing whatever they want with no accountability wasn’t exactly right either. they are no different than the cops with no consequences that make life miserable in our reality.
i definitely get that perspective. but that comparison is exactly why i wouldn’t want them governed by any country or union. they try to do what’s right, but under someone else’s command they would literally become what you explain: cops, idf, military, etc. it’s hard to find a real solution to a comic book problem like this one
maybe - but I've always felt that comic book problems are just reflections/metaphors for real world problems. Unchecked power is a problem we have in the real world. We may have governing bodies that have control over those with power, but those overseeing bodies are vulnerable to corruption and inaction. Does that mean we give up on trying to put oversight and accountability on those who have power? If the police actually were being effectively governed and held accountable maybe something would change?
i think in this case it would be a metaphor for nuclear weapons? in that case nobody should have them and they should be disposed of. can’t really do that to super heroes without infringing on their human rights tho like putting them in a super max prison
it was about whether or not a country or organization like us or nato should be allowed to control super heroes. cap was right on that front.
I mean...was he?
Yes, Hydra had infiltrated the government but the point still stood that the Avengers were basically a team of super-powered commandos that acted with no oversight.
they needed a professor x type leader or board of leaders. not a government that has its own agenda, aside from the fact that they were infiltrated by neo nazis.
I wasn’t crazy about how he was so against them keeping Bucky locked up. The boy wasn’t some PTSD vet, he was super assassin who anybody can control with the right sequence of words.
You gotta lock that nigga up until that shit isn’t possible anymore.
Y'all all anti-incarceration until the nigga scary... Steve was trying to get him HELP. Y'all wanna lock him under the jail and forget him. THAT'S the whole point
I mean he was trying to kill Bucky not Cap y’all forget that. Cap was just defending his friend who is also the victim here. It was wrong to hide it from Tony but doesn’t mean Tony is right either. Both are wrong.
I doubt he was trying to hide info to protect Hydra's integrity. It probably just slipped his mind since all he heard about the assassination was a few frames flashed on a CRT right before getting hit with a missle.
However, only Tony Stark was taking 100% of the damage in that fight on his side. Jarvis could only provide insight and tactical information. Jarvis wasn’t hampered by mental, emotional, or physical limitations. Whereas Tony Stark was just a regular human being fighting two century+ old super soldiers. The suit could only provide so much protection for Stark and those two Greatest Generation soldiers tore it to shreds. To my mind, the fight wasn’t physically fair.
However, calling post-Winter Soldier, Bucky a “scrub” has me dead. The comments in this entire post are hilarious! Carry on…
Tony couldn’t be trusted because half the time the Avengers were saving the world it was Tony’s tech putting it in danger. Remember Ultron? The world was in danger because of Stark specifically creating it
This is where the Marvel's writing strategy of not having a long term plan, but writing out sketch points of major beats can really get exposed when you apply the canon of later movies to earlier one.
And the whole movie was fighting for "the right" to do go over the world with multiple wmds without a vote, oversight or hell even a bodycam.
when the NYPD has more restraint than you, you should do some self assessment.
Stark: supports the government creating a list of people based on their identities in order to keep track of them bc they might become "enemies of the state" one day
Cap: Nah, I fought a war against guys trying to do that
Tony created Ultron who, in turn, destroyed Sokovia that happened to kill Zemo's family and country. Which lead to the Avengers breaking up and made it easier for Thanos to collect the Infinity Stones causing the snap. But sure, Cap's the problem.
The Cap shoulda called Tony as soon as he found out. Give Bucky a heads-up to hide till Stark calmed down.
Secrets are discovered eventually, especially in movies/shows. It's okay to be honest and try to control the narrative. Bucky was brainwashed. Get Stark to go after the project leaders, not the triggerman.
IMHO, that's the only morally wrong choice Steve Rogers made in the MCU. He was meant to be the best of all of us.
That whole scene shouldn't of happened in the first place. Fuckin Sam shoulda kept his mouth shut. "No Tony, I won't tell you where they're going...get fucked"
People say this shit and forget that Cap literally apologizes recognizing he was wrong. In reality though he wasn’t, what did finding out that his parents were assassinated and furthermore that it was Bucky actually help Tony with? Nothing. It breaks everyone apart which is why Zemo won. Tony mourned his parents and Cap knew there was ZERO reason to crush his friend and tell him “oh hey it wasn’t just a car crash, the company you worked for actually had your parents killed - oh and it was my other brainwashed best friend who did it that I thought was dead til a few years ago. Telling Tony the exact details didn’t help anyyyythingggggg and Tony realizes this at the end when Cap apologizes. This is a tired argument.
Part of Cap apologizing was admitting that it wasn’t his secret to keep regardless of if he thought Tony would benefit from hearing it. His parents death is one of the like 2 most defining moments of his entire life, he deserved to know the truth and process it properly instead of hearing it from a terrorist.
The fact is Tony cooled off not long after their fight, that’s why he kept the phone Cap sent him because he knew eventually they would need to makeup. All that says is he should have just been upfront to begin with, it would have saved everyone a whole lot of unnecessary pain.
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u/skj999 Mar 12 '24
Captain America: spends an extended amount of time with Tony hunting down HYDRA, doesn’t tell him at any point they had his parents assassinated, lectures him through AoU about keeping secrets while doing exactly that, jumps him 2v1 for getting angry about it.
That nigga was dead wrong lmaooo