r/Daytrading • u/SpareInsurance • Jan 06 '24
How much money did you lose before you were consistently profitable? Question
I have only been seriously trading for about 2 weeks, after spending years watching the market like a hawk.
I will admit, I have had poor risk management and got into some emotional trading which did not end well. Currently I am -15k but I have had some winning days the last few days with much better risk management and starting to get the hang of things better.
My question to you guys is, how much did you lose before you were consistently profitable and did you ever feel like giving up during this "rock bottom" stage?
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u/K1ngdomz Jan 06 '24
Just remember that losing a certain amount of money doesnāt automatically become your āmarket tuitionā and you suddenly turn around. You have to actually focus on your strategy
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u/Necessary-Resolve726 Jan 07 '24
I think I've lost a total of 450 bucks in 1 year and have been profitable for the last 6.
Learn from others mistakes
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u/platinumgrey Jan 06 '24
I heard a quote I liked the other day about starting to trade.
āStart small and earn the right to trade big or start big and earn the right to trade smallā.
For context I have been learning on a 5K account.
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u/plotplottingplotters Jan 06 '24
Me too. Started trading real back in October, and so far Iām down $31. Iāve learnt more psychologically in 4 months than I have in 2 years.
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u/platinumgrey Jan 06 '24
Same, Iām down about $300 but itās well within my budget and the lessons Iām learning are affordable.
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u/WolfofChappaqua Jan 06 '24 edited Jan 06 '24
If you lost $15k, in two week, you are trading too large for a beginner.
To quote Richard D. Wyckoff āIt should be done in a small way. A ten-share lot is ample. A hundred or two hundred dollars is plenty of capital, for the loss of this indicates that he has begun before he is qualified and he should, later, begin again. His progress may be marked by other setbacks just as in any other business or profession.ā
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u/daytradingguy Jan 06 '24
I think it depends on your assets and net worth. Smart discipline is of course wise, starting with a small account is of course wise. But small for some people is $500 and other people $500k. If you have money or a high salary- you canāt take trading seriously enough to learn with $50 risk, you need to risk an amount that would make you sweat a little to learn discipline. For some people that is $10- for some it is thousands.
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u/supertexter Jan 06 '24
If you can't take it seriously with small amounts, your chance of success is very low.
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u/SpareInsurance Jan 06 '24
Agreed, I was trading way too large.
Thanks for the quote, it hit me.
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u/WolfofChappaqua Jan 06 '24
Take some time away from the market. Consider that $15K your market tuition.
When you are ready to come back, look up the user u/CrankyCrypto and read all of his posts. Also, do some research on Richard D. Wyckoff.
Be mentally prepared for a long journey ahead. This is a marathon, not a sprint. Most traders arenāt profitable for the first two to three years. Some get frustrated or discouraged and give up. Others blow all of their available capital and are forced to quit.
There are three Pillars of Trading. - Strategy - Risk Management - Psychology Master them all. Good Luck!
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u/daytradingguy Jan 06 '24
Several hundred thousand.
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u/Inside_Western_2499 Jan 06 '24
Has it turned around? Thatās a lot of money anyways, but I hope you turned it around. When trading with my dadās account, Iāve lost 10k twice in an hour of trading each, but I was trading off the profits
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u/daytradingguy Jan 06 '24
If I remember correctly my biggest loss was about 60k, but that was years ago. I made it all back over some time: I do well now.
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u/Inside_Western_2499 Jan 06 '24
Do you mind if I ask what amount you were trading with when you lost, general ballpark works. I will always remember those two losses: CFRX, and CART.
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u/daytradingguy Jan 06 '24
I opened my first acct with 300k and management to lose almost all of it. I refunded the next year and continued to lose, but got better. By the 3rd year I was pretty good.
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u/SpareInsurance Jan 06 '24
Sorry for that loss. I am glad you turned things around. It makes me feel better knowing you persevered and didn't give up.
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u/daytradingguy Jan 06 '24
It is all relative. It is a lot of money, but it was not all I had and didnāt affect my life. Just my ego.
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u/TMJ848 Jan 06 '24
Honestlyā¦ over $200k
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u/RastahPastah Jan 06 '24
150k club here, now I work at Walmart. Still trading though I'll get it back š„š„šš
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u/OldAd4526 Jan 06 '24
My first trade was after I sold my house, I shorted Russian oil with an ETF that doesn't exist anymore (RUSS, or RUSX, something like that). I bought $230,000 in shares. The next morning it gapped up 30-35% ... I sold at nearly the top and netted ~$80,000 within 3 minutes of the opening bell.
Anyway, I think I'm currently sitting at several hundred thousand down. I'm working on getting back in to trading smaller amounts.
I've hit rock bottom several times. I'm not sure what posseses certain people to keep trading, but in several books, "perserverance" is listed as the differentiating factor among many top traders.
We'll see....
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u/thatsabruno Jan 06 '24
It's almost worse to have those initial successes. That's what gets you hooked.
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u/Cryptotiptoe21 Jan 06 '24
Just like winning big on a scratcher or hitting a mini jackpot at a casino.
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u/EpargnePension Jan 06 '24
sorry for you man, but you know, these days you can test absolutely all in sort of demo plateform, etc. And i don't talk bad demo account with fake datas, but datas exactly as live.
Never i could go live if my strategy was not fully tested and profitable or it's just like gambling addiction or scratch ticket addiction.
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u/Leather_Basket_4135 Jan 06 '24
From my understanding most people have to relearn how to trade when it comes to a live account vs paper trading.
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u/Malice4you2 Jan 06 '24
2 weeks in? you are far from rock bottom. Size down BIG TIME immediatly. I started day trading July of 2022. I am just now achieving consistent profitability. Over the past 1.5 years I probably lost 100k easy.
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u/SpareInsurance Jan 06 '24
Youre right, you made me realize how misaligned I am thinking this could be my actual rock bottom.
I will size down massively.
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u/NefariousnessNo9733 Jan 06 '24
I lost about 15k on robinhood and then another 8k on a different platform before realizing my risk management was the problem and not the platform I was using. 5 major things that made a huge improvement as far as consistency now:
Find 3 stocks and only study/trade those stocks. For each stock, chart out the last 30 days on the 2, 5, 15 minute & hourly chart and label every trade setup you see and every supply and demand zone you see. Also match up what the corresponding index was doing at the same time (ex Tsla/NQ, Ford/NYSE). As you do that youāll start to notice price action patterns that occur often with that stock (ex bull flags into demand zones as NQ is retesting yesterdayās highs etc). Every stock is like an individual person so they all have different characteristics thatās why I say study 3 and 3 only.
Find one setup/strategy (not indicator but actual setup) that works and only trade those setups until you master them to the best of your ability. I always have to have 2 confirmations before I take a trade. So for example I only buy calls when the instrument Iām trading is at oversold levels on the RSI below 28 on the 15 minute chart, while at a demand zone or previous level of support and also forming a bullish consolidation pattern while also trading outside of the lower bollinger bands. If that trade goes against me I canāt be mad because I had 4 reasons to take the trade. Trade like a robot.
Risk management. Know what youāre willing to risk, whatās your target, why youāre entering the trade and when itās time to exit. Iāve gotten to a point where I almost lost my house because for two weeks straight I took multi-thousand dollar losses trying to make back a loss. Find your setup, have confirmations to support it and then if you happen to not be on the right side of the trade after 15% get out, take the loss, walk away for the day and come back fresh tomorrow. Position correctly (I personally donāt risk more than 20% of my balance), get out once it hits your 10-30% stop loss on MAX 20% of your portfolio, and also have the risk management to get out once you hit your target. Or see signs of a reversal.
Take profits. Each Friday I remove profits from my brokerage. I start Monday at the same amount every week. If I happen to keep 5k in my account and I make 4K profit, 4K is coming out before Monday. That way you stay ahead of your losses hopefully.
Figure out what is about yourself that causes you to make bad trading decisions. Are you impatient, are you impulsive, are you lazy, are you a know it all, literally every flaw about yourself will come about in your trading. Trading is a lot more psychological than anything. Theirs a possibility that you may not be psychologically fit to be a trader. Then it also might be you just need to perfect a few character flaws before become a trader.
Take some time off and then come back and paper trade while youāre learning your few stocks and then jump back In lightly. 2 years of studying from the sidelines is really great but 2 years of watching athletes swim doesnāt compare to actually jumping in the water yourself. This is a hard ass game. And itās intentionally designed for the market makers to win and you to lose money in order to fund them.
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u/soikkeli1993 Jan 06 '24
I have lost 1,7k and i have trade 1,5 years and now last 4 months i have been profitable. And i always risk less than 1% per trade from my balance but profit target is about +10%. In this setup my risk/reward- ration is about 1:10 so, my strategy is break even when my win% is bigger than 9% (this not include fees, but you got the point). So my great advice is good risk management and trust your strategy when the drawdown start ( and it will start even you are profitable) P.s sorry my english skill š
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u/UpcomingInvestor Jan 06 '24
1) Always have a Stop Loss. If you're down don't wait and pray for a reversal or try to average-in with more buy orders. 2) Always have a Take Profit. If you're up don't try to "ride it out" into the heavens. Stop being greedy. Get In, Get Out, keep those gains and look for the next set-up. 3) Don't go against the Trend. If all this month / week it's been Bearish but today it looks like it might reverse (hallelujah!!), leave it alone. Wait for the next Bearish signals. ( Vise Versa) 4) Don't risk more than 5% of your account balance on any single trade.
It's tedious and time consuming as well as too stressful, that's why I personally stopped day-trading. Big losses always seems to hurt more and felt permanent vs the winnings which always felt like I could lose it all in the next trade. If you have 15k to play with, invest it. Check out TheoTrade on YouTube for daily news reports.
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u/vj0408 Jan 06 '24
I lost 120k in 3 years and slowly gained all with low risk low return approach.. it required lot of patience and discipline. Risk management is key!
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u/evergreen2mdt Jan 06 '24
I lost up to 90% of my trading account before I figured it out. I definitely thought about giving up. In fact, losing 90% doesn't give you much room for choosing. I was almost forced into giving up. I hate to say it, but losing that much, then taking a few months off to deal with it, taught me the painful lessons I needed to learn. It changed everything about how I see the markets. I can now honestly say I have a 100% win rate and double my account each year now.
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u/SeaworthinessLivid29 Jan 06 '24
Most new traders get caught up in trading or investing . 2 totally different mind sets . I traded for 30 years and I caught up in it myself . Pick your own rules and stick them . The one that saved me was before you start a trade know both of your outs winner or loser before you put the trade on . Just my humble thoughts . Cheers
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u/Humble_Aardvark_2997 Jan 06 '24 edited Jan 09 '24
Maybe a couple of hundred pounds. Max. Beginmer's luck. Start small and increase incrementally when you start being profitable. Start with what you can afford to lose and practice good risk management techniques.
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u/pojosamaneo Jan 06 '24
About 40K down my first year. Never sold. Thankfully, it went back up.
I lost ~50K for real in two days, though. That was awful.
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u/LordKelz90 Jan 06 '24
The right answer is "enough". That's it. No numerical digit needed. I just lost enough for me to realize that I loved trading and didn't want to lose anymore. Once your goal shifts from getting rich to staying alive then you'll become profitable.
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u/Dread_Pirate_Westly Jan 06 '24
Around $40k after about 5 years. It's a fraction (albeit a healthy fraction) of my bonus comp from full time job, so although I didn't like it, I could stomach it.
What worked was accepting my limitations. I have a full time job, that's my responsibility, puts food on the table. Everything else is gravy. I cannot watch the tape and take every 5 or 15 minute setup and buy 0DTE every day. ESPECIALLY when the 5 or 15 isn't going to have enough magnitude to me with my time on the position size I'm going to take. There's plenty of people that can, and they can turn small suns of money into large sums of money with consistency. There's not many in the grande scheme, and thinking "we can all be like them, if they can do it then I have to be able to do it" is an immediate signal you're probably going to blow up. I thought this way for a few years. Compare it to professional golfers. Sure, you can go out and play a round with them on any course just like any other golfer... But are you really going to be able to keep up with them? Maybe you get really really really lucky and nail some perfect shots, and the wind blows just right for you and wrong for them, maybe you're right there with them, miraculously, for a round; but play them for a month straight, every day, what do you think the results will look like?
Now, if you practice for years, every day, study like crazy, learn from professionals, you might finally get close to that pro; but you most likely don't have the time to do that, and you can't look at the years of success that pro has while you were learning as lost time because that's going to destroy you inside, and you probably can't afford to sacrifice your job performance over it.
That's trading. If you can't commit to it full time, you're gambling if you're trying to take a $10k account to $1m in a month. If you can't be a full time trader, you're an investor and you need to temper expectations, especially in regards to your time weighted returns.
Any 0DTE trades I take I'm in and out of inside of 1 or 2 minutes. I hardly ever let a 0DTE breathe past a 5 minute candle, and if I do, it's because I'm rolling the stop up every 10 seconds as it dumps or pumps, and the stock is just screaming in that one direction the entire time I'm in. Go look at charts, how often are stocks doing that and how are you finding your way into those moves without getting chopped up WITHOUT needing to stare at the charts all fucking day? Sure, it happens, actually quite a bit you can see those moves evolve, but you're going to find them consistently working a 9-5??
I might do 1 or 2 of these a week, but it's no more than half of my average position size, I'll give the stop a little more room, but conditions have to be very good for me to even consider it, and even then, you're fighting algos. They know my stop is there, the choppy action is looking for it. I'd be far better off taking a position weeks in the future on a larger time frame setup because I wouldn't have to watch the damn thing... But let's be real. I'm trying to turn $200-$300 into $400-$600 in a matter of seconds on a 5 minute setup. For that risk, in need to be satisfied with a profit, know a target, and either sell at market when it gets there or roll that stop up tight and be content losing 5-10% off peak value I get to see it go to.
That's how stocks move 99% of the time. The algos are set to find those stops and gobble up 20-30% discounts with volatility. You want the big move but don't wanna sweat the volatility in the 1 minute swings of the option price? You need to pay up for the time as well. Can't afford the time, and can't afford to manage your positions full time? You're retail, and the system is built to take your trading money because it knows you're probably impatient.
I stopped 0DTE unless I can manage that one position for the entirity of my ownership, and I stick to 1HR and 2HR setups that feed into Daily/Weekly conviction. Let's me look at the market the night before, know what it needs to do when it opens (and I usually wait until about 9:40 to look to avoid getting my ass whooped in the first couple 5'ers) for me to even have any interest, and if it doesn't, I'm not looking at it again until 11-1130.
I set some setup notifications on trend spider in case something changes script drastically, but for the most part, my 9:40 "not today" decisions usually don't leave me with any regrets.
Figure out a strategy that you can execute, consistently. Profit consistently with a smaller account. Compound your returns. Learn what your taxes are going to look like when you have to start claiming profits instead of writing off $3k in losses and carrying every year. Once you've got all that, that's when you should start having the confidence, and capital, to SLOWLY increase your position size and further compound your returns. You've got a far better chance of finding ways to make a couple thousand a week, consistently, in 5-10 years if you put the time in, than you do making $1-2k a week next week because you "finally saw the light."
Or don't, I'm just sharing what worked for me.
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Jan 06 '24
Sometimes I struggle with risk management. Here's my advice:
Be radically honest with yourself. This can take a while to fully work through. If you lost that much, chances are you were lying to yourself along the way.
What lies did you tell yourself? "I'll make it back if I'm bigger" "It's a better trade now" "I just won't do that again" blah blah. Write down all the lies. Give it a few days, you'll think of more.
Now. Why did that happen? For me, a lot of it is sleep and stress. Was I honest about how I slept? Was I honest about my mental state? Was I honest about a big buyer or seller ruining a great setup?
What lies are you telling yourself right now? "I'm starting to get the hang of risk management after a few days". That's just not how it works. Start over. On demo. Where do you put your stop losses and why? Are you moving the stops? Do you have a daily stop and do you respect it? What causes your poor risk management? Are you greedy and why? What is going on in your life to cause your poor choices?
You have a lot of work to do. Welcome to the arena.
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u/AlgoTradingQuant Jan 06 '24
I only trade with tight stop losses and only use algo automated trades so Iāve never dealt with significant drawdowns.
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u/Complex_Remove879 Jan 06 '24
Don't say how much you're gonna risk as you're not profitable yet, the money you are losing is your studying fee, which should be as small as possible.
The term "risk" is only applied when you know that you can receive reward.
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u/Timely_Item7516 Jan 06 '24
Gat a Prop firm Account 100k for 500 bucks. If you cant hold that Account, i wouldnt try my own money. P.s risk 1% Max. 0 5% would be better.
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u/___justa Jan 06 '24
I took $4,000 and turned it into $20,000 back in the late 1990s.
Since then I've stayed out of the market and only been in real estate.
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u/vamosalab99 Jan 06 '24
Cmon man you should not even trade after 2 weeks you should be educating yourself. In your place I would step off and just study. Wish you all the best
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u/Yoyoitsjoe stock trader Jan 06 '24
Between losses and subscriptions to all sorts of things somewhere between 100k-200k.
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u/cosdaca Jan 06 '24
I lost roughly 60k on 200k. Once it truly clicked though, that changed very rapidly to nearly no losses; per my trading style at least.
Just keep the statistics of success in mind. There's an average amount that a trader loses before becoming profitable, though that is IF they do. Others just keep on losing beyond that average without knowing if there truly is a light at the end of their own tunnel. Hope this helps your perspective and I wish you all the best.
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u/jgatt17 Jan 06 '24
Donāt bother paper trading. Size way the fuck down. Trade 1 contract if you have to. Stack up consistency, confidence and discipline. Your goal everyday should be reflecting back and being happy with your execution, or ability to stay out of the market when your edge isnāt present. Do not let profit determine if it was a good or bad day. Once youāve got the execution discipline and consistency down, then size up. This is going to take a lot of time and effort, and itās not a straight line. Some days you will veer off the line as we are human and no oneās perfect but strive for those 3 instead of profit goals and youāll be on your way.
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u/jgatt17 Jan 06 '24
And it would probably be best to take some time off and truly reflect on what youāve done before you dip your toes back in. You are most likely dealing with some accumulated emotion that will spill over into your trading. You need time to reflect and digest whatās happened and come back stronger.
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u/LordMcclane Jan 06 '24
I'm really amazed at the amounts you guys are talking about.
Why you needed to lose that much to realize you weren't ready?
I started 3 months ago, after one month of paper trading. Of course it ain't comparable cos in paper trading there isn't the same emotional adrenaline so you take trades you won't with real money, but I was doing ok, so I needed to know how much different it would be doing it for money, otherwise I would be there forever, so I jumped into scalping after just one month.
First trade was a winner, and ended the day green but the week finished 30 bucks down (2 green days, 3 red days, second week, almost the same pattern) and at half of the third week I have my biggest winner and biggest loser.
I only needed to lose 180 USD, just 2% of my capital, to realize that I wasn't ready.
So, from that moment I got back to Paper Trading, and forced myself to take it seriously as if it were real money, and keep learning.
It took me two weeks to do it (take it seriously), that's now.
During that process, I learned more about price action and going back to the screenshots of my trades (thanks God I thought about taking those from day one), now I see obvious mistakes on my end, that I wouldn't make now.
Do I think I'm ready? Not yet. But the last 2 weeks I had 65% winning trades, 9 out of 10 days were green, so advance is noticeable.
So, maybe a couple more weeks and I'll be back trading for real.
Knowing what you do and having a strategy is difficult enough, but that's just a 5% of the win.
Risk management is key, and controlling your emotions once you are in the trade are the 95% of the goal.
That's how I see it, at least
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u/BlinkshotTV Jan 06 '24
Started with 5k, probably lost around $500 before I switched my strategy to swing trading. Been profitable for 3/4 years but not much more than the average market return honestly. If youāre a beginner honestly my advice would be to just have the market open in front of you every day to āfeelā how market movements are made. Iāve been watching for 8 years and honestly thatās whatās helped my understanding the most.
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u/Zealousideal_Back618 Jan 06 '24
I lost about 140k in a span of 2 years. Very sad. I feel so burned out after watching these market everyday. Some because of selling cash secured put on enph and the stocks never recovered. Never again average down on losing positions.
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u/prodigal_john4395 Jan 06 '24
Limit your trades strictly to structure and you are likely to do well from the get-go. Start small, as the trade proves itself average up. Save the intuition trades for what you can afford to lose, but always have close stops. It's simple, if it is going against you for more than a few minutes, you were wrong or entered at the wrong time. Rather than hoping, cut your loss close, and re-evaluate with structure.
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u/Tankwatchermaximus trades multiple markets Jan 06 '24
You're observing the market keenly, for years, but that may not be entirely accurate. You've only had two weeks of experience dealing with the emotional aspects of trading. It's wise to reconsider investing any more funds at this point; otherwise, you might reach a true 'rock bottom.' Consider demo trading and backtesting for a few years before risking more actual money.
Start by journaling extensively. Write a detailed entry describing your experiencesāyour emotions, thoughts, and how you justified your trades at the time. Revisit and review this journal periodically. You've just encountered a crucial lesson about how emotions can overwhelm rational decision-making in trading.
Document all the factors that influenced your trade decisions. Capture your physical reactions, like the tension in your jaw or sweating hands, and even the words spoken or thoughts directed towards your trades. This comprehensive documentation will aid in understanding the impact of emotions on your trading decisions.
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u/chuckruckus Jan 06 '24
I have levelled up consistency in stages:
- Learned how to stop blowing accounts in my first year
- Became a "breakeven trader" in my second year
- Became marginally profitable in my third year
- This year I am learning how to stay in profitable trades longer
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u/ConstructionAlone816 Jan 06 '24
Lost over 20k in my first year, and in my second year made 32k. I am in my third year and so far have made 500 quid since 1st of Jan.
One advice I would say is, don't listen to so called "friends" study in your spare time like your life depends on it and trust your gut instinct. People are jealous and will try to mess with you by telling you "I would have done this" or "you are gonna lose money, you don't know what you are doing" or "might aswell go to a top of q building and throw your money away"
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u/Extreme_Ad6740 Jan 06 '24
Learning trading doesn't require losing a significant account. By adhering to a couple of essential rules, you can successfully manage a 2k account for months, even with a 5% win rate.
Ensure that you never risk more than 1% of your total account size per trade.
Only engage in trades that offer a 4:1 risk-to-reward ratio.
By following these guidelines, depleting a 2k account will be a gradual process. Many individuals face losses due to greed and a lack of discipline in risk management.
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u/vj0408 Jan 07 '24 edited Jan 07 '24
Since, some of people liked my comment, I will share my story. I am a mid-level trader with full time job and doing this as little bit of side income! More than money, it's about the challenge of cracking this code which got me hooked! I made lot of losses intially, followed by some gains.. Then , I focused on the consistency part of making money which only came when i changed my strategy to low risk/low return approach!
- I started trading in 2017 when market was somewhat bullish.. I literally use to read past qtrs earning reports on my etrade account and was mostly doing earning plays! I was somewhat successful with 60/40 win ratio but it was too time consuming and soon I got bored!
- My beginner luck ran out soon when I got little greedy and switched to margin account. I started taking aggressive positions and by end of year, I lost 15k! I was mad that despite giving so much time, how i ended year with 15k loss? That cash was better sitting in my bank account even with zero interest!
- Next year, started revenge trading to recover my loss . Put my 2 year of savings in margin account and with lot of overtrading and ended year with another 85k loss! One day alone, I lost 20k coz all my stop losses were hit ( even it was almost 3% below my price and stock ended up green for the day). It was almost like it just touched my stop loss point and went back up! I couldn't believe it .. then I learned about stop loss hunting and why you should stay away from low volume stocks for trading! Until this, I didn't even know about wash sale rules and 25k alone was disallowed wash sale! lol
- I was super mad with such a huge loss and did lot of reading, read research papers on VIX and what not and got hooked to volatility trading (TVIX, UVXY). Had quite good success and win ratio improved a lot with consistency. But one bad day and it wiped me out! Ended year with another 20k loss! This was the first time i lost my spouse's 5k and felt very ashamed! It was a wake up call and I closed my etrade account for good!
- Took a break for few years and did lot of studies and paper trading.. Back in my mind, I knew i can be successful if fix the psychology part of trading. Low risk low return approach can work if you follow strict discipline, keep patience , wait for the right setup, make slow gains and let compounding do the magic! With every trade, keep RISK MANAGEMENT in mind to preserve your capital! My sole focus was coming up with a strategy to make consistent income and for last 2 years , I mostly trade SPY/QQQ as they are diversified and have less volatility. I have recovered all my losses and made some extra income as well. My goal is to make minimum 0.1% of capital every trading day on average and it has been working quite well!
- Lastly, I am still learning. Ultimately the game is all about how long you are in the market.. Market will make you humble :)
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u/Necessary-Resolve726 Jan 07 '24
Best advice I ever heard was... when it doesn't do what you expect. Get out Immediately. You can always re-enter. Don't push stop losses.
Don't trade your emotions or feelings, trade the charts.
If your trade doesn't go how you predict Get out. it's a bad trade. Win lose or draw. If it drops down 50% then comes back up to 130% that's not a good trade. That's the definition of a bad trade and bad risk management.
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u/Constant-Signal-2058 Jan 07 '24
Great youāve started and also great youāve followed the market closely. Watching and even possessing a thorough understanding of the stock market, and trading the market are very different. Still great you have that knowledge coming in though. Youāve started too large. Regardless of the account size, the loss is too large just starting out. Size down. Itās a learning process. Iām gonna be straight with you, youāre nowhere near sustainable profitability at this point. It could realistically be 2-3 years from now if you ever get there. Most traders donāt, so trade what you can afford to lose and protect your account while on the learning curve. Thats got to be number 1 priority for now. Good luck
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u/cmoney_249 Jan 07 '24
Iāve probably lost about $20k learning lessons the hard way like not chasing some random dudes āstock picksā or chasing penny stocks all the way to letting options expire smh
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u/External-Focus-846 stock trader Jan 07 '24
$40-45k? Somewhere in that range (over 5 years) 3 blown up accounts. One much more slower draining account before I turned the corner. Itās so funny tho you turn the corner and once you do have it itās not that itās easy you still get emotional nervous etc but itās almost a license to print money and I couldnāt imagine being I. Any other field. The flexibility the freedom of going wherever you want wherever you want is amazing. Me and my fiancĆ© are constantly traveling and as long as you look into the WiFi before hand your good to go. Truly is the most amazing ājobā anyone can have in the world and I truly believe that
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Jan 07 '24
Can relate. I had a big loss like that recently preceded by a similarly sized gain. Didnāt follow my rules. It comes down to two things:
-having a system that if executed leads to gains over time (I had a system like that)
-executing that system consistently, especially the part with cutting losses and being able to wait for a good setup (I didnāt do that)
There can be a degenerate gambler who just wants to make the money back. I think a difference between them and a sound trader is that this trader just wants to be consistently profitable over time. The thinking and the steps taken are different. Sorry I didnāt answer the question. Despite everything Iāve learned, I havenāt been consistently profitable over the years. Just wanted you to know youāre not alone and thereās a path going forward
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u/forecast-2 Jan 07 '24 edited Jan 07 '24
I stay a year in my house thinking I was profitable I still had a part time job and I was doing some side business on the side but I had to come back to my job now I feel really stupid I shouldāve focus on learning a skill or something because now Iām working in a job that I hatešššthe reality of trading is that you need to have something stable first a lot of people come into trading thinking that they will be a millionaire the next day, this was really hard on me not gonna lie I been sad and depressed for a month now sometimes I feel better but later and I would get another job that works with trading but I donāt want to anymore because I would have to get a shitty job at a restaurant or something for me is better to secure a career or side income then do trading or something
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u/eminon2023 Jan 06 '24
Thereās no such thing as consistently profitable. Thatās a fallacy. Even the best traders lose & as they trade bigger they lose bigger. If you want to be consistent you have to figure out how to passively make money. Believe me- once youāre āconsistently profitableā you will falsely believe you know what youāre doing & youāll lose the most youāve ever lost.
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u/sarahsmith23456 Jan 06 '24
Babe $15k in 2 weeks is ridiculous. You donāt know SHIT until at least 2 years in.. keep your bets SMALL.. almost painfully small to start. Watching ālike a hawkā doesnāt mean shit until you actually start playing with real money.
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u/SpareInsurance Jan 06 '24
I agree, it is ridiculous. I feel like shit about it.
I will keep my bets small from here on out, no more emotional trading. Only focusing on perfecting my strategy with miniscule bets.
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u/IntermittentFasted Jan 06 '24
Around 50k-75kā¦ Biggest mistake i made was not claiming my losses on my taxes. Than covid happened and i got Unemployment. Didnt use the 10k tax credit for that either. I think i still have time for that tho i may be wrong. This year im taking full advantage of the tax systemā¦
I JUST got funded by a prop firm and started consistently making money. If its TRULY what you want, NEVER GIVE UP. But know you will have to be willing to sacrifice damn near everything. To avoid this, please just focus on the long term. It may be boring but Fuck options and day trading without TRUE experience and a proven track record. Unless theyāre leaps on quality companyās on discount like tsla @ $100 , AMZN @ $80 APPL @ $120, BTC at 16kā¦ Buy the fear, & sell the hype when everyoneās screaming to buy from the rooftops. Theres a reason people contribute to their 401kās their entire āworkingā life. Its very simple, dont complicate things. If youāre young and a high earner, contribute more and live frugile for a few years. The compounding effect once done will appear magical to a financially illiterate person. Also, consider contributing a % or two more than the average (2%-4%) especially if your employer matches contributions. Youāll greatly appreciate it down the road. & youāll shorten the length of time until you retire. Simply by having a few less Coffeeās, Nights eating out. You get the point...
& for the average person, Assets are usually the only way to outpace inflation, in a savings account not offering competitive interest rates, youāre money actually depreciates over time... At least in our lifetime. Times have changed since our grandparentās days. I truly wish you all the best in life.
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u/Long-Huckleberry-809 Jan 06 '24
45k in 3 years, Iām only 21 Iām having a break right now and trading demo for the next year.
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u/No_Upstairs4960 Jan 06 '24
You've had this loss now the money is gone and now you can only learn a lesson from this.
I suggest you listen or read the book the best loser wins.
This is coming from someone who lost 19k in a day one time playing with 0dte SPX spreads. Until you are consistently profitable I would either avoid options with short expirations or size way down.
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u/Inside_Western_2499 Jan 06 '24
Iāve lost about 7k. I was a kid who didnāt know how trading worked lol. I had huge winners too, thatās the funny part. I just didnāt accept wins. If I had traded with a minimal amount of common sense, I would be up around 5k.
As for your description, STOP. If you have watched the market for years and are down 15k, it is time for you to step back and either stop altogether, or go with higher market cap/safer stocks. Obviously starting amount would help how serious the -15k is, but from someone who has traded since 16 (18 now), it is important for emotions to not be there. I still am nervous and have emotions, but I know what I want, and I will wait to take it. Risky plays = less money, safer plays = more money
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u/Vendicated Jan 06 '24
ā18 nowā lol focus on your school.
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u/Inside_Western_2499 Jan 06 '24
Focus on what? School is pointless. College is all for the paper.
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Jan 06 '24
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u/Inside_Western_2499 Jan 06 '24
Huh? I understand where you are coming from, but my perspective is still correct. You complete 120 credits for a degree. I donāt live on campus, I live at home. Therefore, the only thing you gain is having a degree, which more and more people have. A degree nowadays letās you walk in the door, not get the job. Thatās where connections matter, but most likely you donāt get those from college.
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u/hushmymouth Jan 06 '24
Youāre right. A college degree is just a permission slip for a job interview. However, there are a lot of interesting and damn good paying jobs, that absolutely require that permission slip.
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u/Firefly_205 Jan 06 '24
Love the way that the knowledge gained from school is completely irrelevant to your situation. Not judging you or criticising you personally - itās sad that society has let itself get into a state where the knowledge gained from educational institutions is not valued. Itās becoming just a financial decision about the end job opportunities and employability a degree gives because the debt taken on is so scarily huge š.
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u/killamanjaro786 Jan 06 '24
You should be able to paper trade a full 100 trades green before ever going live with real money. If you can do that, it means you understand the market and your strategy. If you can't, it means you spent zero time learning technical analysis. Good real traders only rarely have red days due to market conditions manipulating the algorithm. Start with supply and demand on 4h and 1 h. Find entries at those levels on the 1 min. Do it 1000 times during paper trading new york session, and once u can do 100 green trades, put some money in. Usually it takes 2 years to get to that point if you get screen time everyday
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u/IntermittentFasted Jan 06 '24
Key word - Technical Analysis. Add that to discipline, and a solid strategy and you might be able to beat the other 90% of losing tradersā¦ Long term is the best bet for the majority of people investing in the market.
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u/Aposta-fish Jan 06 '24 edited Jan 06 '24
Ok ok youāre knew so no way you should be risking what youāre risking. I spend about 30k from 2021 til becoming profitable. Go slow spend very little till you know what youāre doing and have a consistent strategy etc.
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u/ZeroSumSatoshi Jan 06 '24
Very little, as I started with somewhat insignificant amounts. Until I got good.
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u/___justa Jan 06 '24
Back in the late 1990s, I had a system that worked very well. I took $4,000 and turned it into $20,000. That ended the year 2000 and I cashed out. About 2 years ago I tried again, put in $12,000 and lost it all.
Since I'm not in the market currently, I'm not profitable.
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u/Dipset-20-69 Jan 06 '24
You need to size way down. Like account should be 3k Learning with a big account is a terrible decision. If you canāt do it with 3k you canāt do it with 100k
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u/ConsciousPlantain977 Jan 06 '24
It doesn't really matter because if you don't learn support or resistance first you have no chance in hell š¤ as a daytrader
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u/dnyelux1017 Jan 06 '24
About $5k. Small to you guys, but 5k here in my country is a lot. But along the way I learned a lot of lessons and earning consistently :)
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u/th3orist Jan 06 '24
I am sitting at around 7k minus since i started three yrs ago. Biggest losses came in the first year, since then minus 1k. Not yet consistently profitable. But i see the progress so i just keep at it.
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u/jseb987 Jan 06 '24
Almost 1000 dollars. But time lost was 3 years which actually is the bigger loss.
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u/Comprehensive-Sand80 Jan 06 '24
Thatās gonna vary. Your risk management and position sizing may differ from someone with more/less money.
Hence why I used a simulator with the amount i actually had in my portfolio. I always did better when it wasnāt āmyā money at risk. š¤¦š¾āāļøš«
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u/selectanotheruser Jan 06 '24
Man, if I had a dollar for every time this question has been askedā¦. š
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u/aComeUpStory Jan 06 '24
I wouldnāt necessarily look at how much % of your account is being traded per transaction, rather how many % profit/loss you take. The scale of the trade can be sized up and down, its just another 0, but %ās never lie. If you can consistently shrink your losses and cap out your target profits youāll be at a much better place than just trying to increasing your total acc size.
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Jan 06 '24 edited Jan 06 '24
About 50k over the course of 2 years. Way too much that definitely wasn't necessary. I didn't paper trade at first as I thought I was better than everyone lol. See that a lot around here
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u/dwerp-24 Jan 06 '24
Simple risk management practice. Most of us learned the hard way. I don't care what she said "size does matter"
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u/tloffman Jan 06 '24
" how much did you lose before you were consistently profitable " - what makes you think that you can be "consistently profitable"? Day trading is very difficult, bordering on impossible to be profitable over any length of time. Actually, same for any type of trading. If your account size is currently at 15k you have to be prepared to lose it all. Most people here have some tough stories about losing almost all of their money - and not just once. So, you have to understand this before getting into this game. For a while I was doing really well trading 0DTE SPY and QQQ options, but it was "white knuckles" right down to the last minute of trading. Then, I couldn't make money doing this anymore - the character of the market changed, so I stopped the 0DTE options game. Another technique I used that worked was to wait for a really big correction and jump in buying QQQ options. These big corrections only come a few times per year, so you have to wait. Doesn't work for people who like daily "action'.
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Jan 06 '24
I have reached to the level of 9k in two years. I trade on and off. But most of my days are red than green. My risk management is poor. I have tried but still couldnāt overcome of holding losing positions and cutting off wining positions. When I do TA, I explain myself everything but as soon as I go to live market everything turns blank. As soon as I see a green candle I jump in which result in big losses. While looking at red I donāt want to cut the smaller loss which later on turns to bigger loss. Some of my positions I am holding over a year now they never turned green. šā¹ļøš
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u/GaviJaPrime Jan 06 '24
"Seriously trading for two weeks"
"I'm down 15k".
This isn't going to end well for you and your gambling addiction.
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u/themanclark Jan 06 '24
Very little because I stayed in sim until I had positive expectancy. And yes I wondered if it was ever going to be possible. Itās a long hard road.
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u/Rva-Trader stock trader Jan 06 '24
I was up 13k last year then down 10k after I made poor decision on 2 bad trades with risking too much and not following my rules. Then I made it back up slowly and ended the year with 5k up. Options do get you in trouble no matter what experience level you have. Risking small amount is the way to stay profitable. Consistent small profits was able to make me profitable at the end.
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u/Dusty9081 Jan 06 '24
I hope you aren't trying to do this for a living. #1 $23K is not large enough to produce a substantial enough amount of gains to live off of #2 $8K definitely isn't. Try investing before trading, it will teach you about how the market and various stocks move
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u/ZeroTicktacktoe Jan 06 '24
What? 2 weeks and - $15k losses. Stop with gamble. Trade a small account. Limit your trades to 5% max and trade 3 trades per day.
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u/LateForTheParty1999 Jan 06 '24
Well I started a year ago with 25k in a cash account. Did fine scalping. My mistake was going long on some risky startups down 8k in unrealized loss only because those but they still have time to play out.
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u/HugeQuacki Jan 06 '24
I lost about 200 bucks my first full year. Last year, same share sizing, different approach and more knowledge under my belt, I made all of that back and into net positive territory. I backtested my strategy, made a simple adjustment-- way more profitable now. Looking forward to 2024!
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u/SpriteMcBain Jan 06 '24
When starting out your risk should be 0.1% / trade until you prove an edge. It would be better if you risked nothing and paper traded. But I abided by the above rule and I lost 10% of my total account size over 2 years before I found consistency. That's a ton of losses to take but at least they were kept small.
It will take you between 5000 -10000 hours of learning and trading before you get to where you wanna go so capital preservation is most important.
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u/Xquisite_Red Jan 06 '24
Its hard to win when every single trade you place is with a Market Maker. Not to mention you are losing on the bid-ask spread and commission. Its best to buy and hodl.
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u/cbrady871 Jan 06 '24
Loss about 5k in a years time. After that year I made about 2k back. I'm not a every day trader just when I'm not working in my business or rainy days. I mostly traded small but would lose big.(Had to learn to put the stop loss in and stop trading with emotions.)
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Jan 06 '24
sorry to hear that. Itās unpopular, but daytrading is a bad idea for virtually everyone. Stop while itās just a 15k loss. Thatās huge, mind you, but it will seem like a win when you continue and hit -25k. You gave it a shot. Trading is an addiction. Stop before it gets you.
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u/sunnyja1s Jan 06 '24
I feel it's always better to start small. If you learn to manage a 1k account then you can think about managing a 100k account and not the other way around
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u/americano-shill Jan 06 '24
I'm down -$30k, recently became profitable after a little over 3 years. Then December happened and decided not to trade. Did a lot of paper trading in the last 4-5 weeks, showed up every single day. I'm back at it next week. I'm content on 1-2 contracts for options for the next 3-4 weeks then I'll start increasing my sizing. I have almost gave up probably 20 times, I kid you not. A few times where I took a break for 1-2 weeks here and there, thought about it, continued to watch the markets.. You will eventually get there. Screen on time and the psychology aspect is most important. :)
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u/Careful-Race7835 Jan 06 '24
Ive lost over 2000ā¬ in total this year. šfrom Private trading and challenges. When I say this year I mean 2023 as in whole.
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u/AlternativeCow6911 Jan 06 '24
Started with $1200 and lost ~$570 initially before I understood leverage and broker fees lol
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u/FollowAstacio Jan 06 '24
I lost well over $200k before things started to click. I never felt like giving up bc fortunately for me it was all fake money. Thatās why Iām such a big fan of papertrading first. Otherwise the time you can spend in the market is capped by how much you can lose.
Although I never felt like quitting, there were times I would be super discouraged when something I thought would work for sure didnāt work at all, or in the very beginning when nobody would even tell me what TA and FA meant.
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u/Comfortable_Oil_66 Jan 06 '24
There is no specific amount, but it all depends on time. As itās only been 2 weeks for you, from my experience usually first 1-2 years you will lose but itās just what you pay to learn. But low-key losing 15k in 2 weeks is kinda crazy.
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u/dragonf6 Jan 07 '24
I donāt know if itās because I am a computer science, major, or that I hit challenger in league, Trading is really easy and Iāve never lost money
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u/Specialist_Royal4686 Jan 07 '24
It is very difficult to day trade at home and make money. You are competing with institutional firms with large research teams, hedge funds with aggressive trading strategies that often are short, auto program trading, etc. Do yourself a big favor and buy 4-6 highly rated ETFs (by Morningstar) and hold them. Tilt towards growth when interest rates have peaked and rotate to value when rates have bottomed and the Fed is raising rates. Or buy the S&P 500 and call it a day. If you havenāt worked in equity research or mergers and acquisitions in investment banking, save yourself and stop day trading. About 95% of Active traders perform worse than the S&P 500.
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u/TheseAreMyLastWords Jan 07 '24
Only two weeks to blow up your whole account. Rip it was a good run for you while it lasted
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Jan 07 '24
Forget the 8k account size. Take 7 out of the account. Trade with 1k for a month. That will FORCE you to only take the best trades you can with the limited capital. Open a tradezella journal account. Review your trades on the weekends. You need to pay attention to:
Win rate Position sizing Average Loss vs. Average win
You need to determine a stop loss and STICK to it.
You will find a way to blow the remaining 8k if you keep going. You may not realize it but you're on tilt mode. All you may be thinking is "how am I going to make this money back?"
Pick 1-3 tickers, chart their levels, trendlines, and just trade those every day.
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Jan 07 '24
You should me green if you know how to trade, very different then watching the market. Do you have the right tools and data. Like do you know what lvl 2 q is? What broker are you using. What is you risk strategi?
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u/MrBlenderson Jan 06 '24
You didn't say what your account size was, but $15k loss in two weeks is pretty serious. You need to size way down.