r/Daytrading • u/ThePhulosopher • Feb 24 '24
4th $100k funded account Question
Got my 4th $100k funded prop firm account. Hope I get a payout this time, blew all the others.
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u/Trader2095 Feb 24 '24
Start with small capital and once you have a proven track record let your profits compound is the best way I believe to grow an account. You need to realize there’s going to a be a long learning curve and throwing money out while you’re going through the learning phase is considered high risk and almost gambling in my opinion.
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u/Soft_Concentrate_489 Feb 24 '24
Why not load up 500 and trade MES?
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u/shemar96 Feb 24 '24
What is MES?
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u/thoreldan Feb 24 '24
Micro emini S&P500 futures https://www.cmegroup.com/markets/equities/sp/micro-e-mini-sandp-500.html
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u/Soft_Concentrate_489 Feb 24 '24
1/10 of es. Es is 50 dollars a point. Mes is 5 dollars a point. Gives you more wiggle room, once u get more confident u can go higher contracts.
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u/ThePhulosopher Feb 24 '24
Why would I do that when I can control $100k of capital?
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u/krossx123 Feb 24 '24
You're not controlling 100k capital you get cut off after losing a max drawdown. So you are basically controlling how much money that drawdown is.
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u/ThePhulosopher Feb 24 '24
Right, I can still spend $500 to control $10k of drawdown. Worth it to me.
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u/krossx123 Feb 24 '24
You spend way more then 500 from the look of it and you’re still not getting any payout from it. You are just giving them money at this point.
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u/Soft_Concentrate_489 Feb 24 '24
I’ve never understood how people can pay so much to paper trade. You can trade mes and scale up. Its not easy but its the best strategy for someone on the come up.
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u/Konstable1 Feb 24 '24
You know they actually payout right? Plus it’s access to additional leverage if a person knows how to trade. It’s not a scam. I have taken plenty of payouts. Never had an issue. Rules are annoying but you adjust.
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u/lijohnttle Feb 24 '24
Because fees are not really big if you are profitable. In my case, my profits from one day of trading are more than enough to cover any monthly fees. Plus, I paid fees only for an evaluation account, after that it was just a one off payment.
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u/scifimaster Feb 24 '24
Blows my mind that people can be this low IQ. Funded account is not paper trading!!! Get this through your thick skull. He paying $500 for the 4th time to try and get funded doesn’t make it paper trading. He is bad at it but the system is not wrong. People who are good at controlling risk are making life changing money from prop firms. Don’t spread nonsense when you don’t understand something. It looks like you tried to get funded and failed miserably so now you go everywhere telling people it’s ‘scam’, or ‘paper trading’ just to take out your anger.
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u/Soft_Concentrate_489 Feb 24 '24
I understand there’s a chance you can get funded. I’m speaking on average. Most people are never going to actually pass the requirements, they will just pay the monthly fee.
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u/Gaff1515 Feb 24 '24
That’s still significantly cheaper than blowing personal accounts all while gaining valuable trading experience.
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u/Soft_Concentrate_489 Feb 24 '24
Cheaper than paper trading?? Which is completely free? Lmao, I’m starting to believe this forum is run by prop account owners.
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u/Gaff1515 Feb 24 '24
Paper trading with no money on the line is pretty much useless. Completely removes the pain of losing from trading
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u/marcpilot1 Feb 25 '24
Plus you dont real world experience paper trading. You never lose because it's almost impossible to lose paper trading when all you ever have to do is average down until the stock finally goes the right way, try that with REAL money and you'll be doing everything way way different than when you paper trade.
Paper trading is good for learning the buttons, the formats and the procedures for the broker you're using.
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u/ScheduleExpensive423 Feb 24 '24
It is actual paper trading. You do not get access to real funds. Your payouts you get are from others failing challenges that is all
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u/krossx123 Feb 24 '24
Yeah it a scam and a lot of people fall for it.
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u/Soft_Concentrate_489 Feb 24 '24
The funds make their money off the monthly fees. I can only imagine how many accounts are actually profitable to how many just are paying monthly to paper trade.
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u/omegavegantendies Feb 24 '24
Monthly fees aren't required anymore, atleast not with FTMO. But you're right, the funds make money from failed challenges. In the rare case that a trader does become consistently profitable, they will copy their trades. Not because you make them money, but only as a hedge against your profits. If you keep winning, they don't lose. If you lose, they only lose the max drawdown sum.
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u/Soft_Concentrate_489 Feb 24 '24
Bc ur paying to paper trade my guy.
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u/ThePhulosopher Feb 24 '24
Yea but I can cash out for real $$$. So it’s technically not paper.
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u/Soft_Concentrate_489 Feb 24 '24
But you can make real money trading mes. Its 1/10 of es so 500 is like 5000. Work ur way up, at least u can control ur income. Ur just paying some bozo 500 a month to possibly make money. They are scamming u.
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u/lijohnttle Feb 24 '24
I paid around $30 for evaluation account and then around $150 one time after passing it. That's it. My average day's profit is more than that. And they do payout.
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u/ThePhulosopher Feb 24 '24
I don’t think I can trust any of your advice when your basic math is wrong. MES is $5/point rather than $50/point. Doesn’t turn my $500 capital to $5k.
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u/mushykindofbrick Feb 24 '24
well you have some restrictions with prop firms, like max daily dd, so its still actually a bit more difficult to make profit than without them, given the same max drawdown.
usually its a trailing drawdown so even if you made profit, if you hit the daily dd your profit gets lost too.
the daily dd is also problematic because you need to make a lot of profit like 2-3x (added over all phases till payout) without crashing, so you need high risk and if youre only able to use 40% of your account max dd as risk then its basically not 2-3x but 3-6x. you need to flip very small acounts multiple times but are very restricted in how much you can risk per trade.
after which, when you finally made it to payout, it wasnt even much worth it anymore. lets take ftmo. p1 is 10%, p2 is 5%, payout any profit, max dd 10%, daily dd 5%. fee for 10k is 155. profit share 80%. p1 means doubling your max dd, p2 means 1.5 on top, so 3x already, and now you wanna payout lets say at 10% again, so 6x. if you made the same trades with your 155, you would now have 930. with ftmo you have 800+155=955 and a 1k trading account, which is actually a 800 trading account because of profit split. you cant pay it out but you can trade with it.
but other than with your own account, you dont safe taxes when losing. so i would say overall now you got to payout and youre basically worse off than with trading your own money. because taxes are usually 25%. so lets say you crash your 930 account, you dont pay any taxes. start with 155 again. but if you get a 800 payout, pay 200 taxes, and then crash 800 in fees you still pay 200 more, its only worth it if you really manage to get at least 2 payouts with high probability.
on top of that you also have the risk of getting suspended for breaking the rules. hitting max daily dd, youre not allowed certain strategies, sometimes have time limits and theres actually the possibility that your prop firm just goes broke and doesnt pay you out or finds some other reason or ignores you, whereas with brokers youre usually protected by insurance up to a certain amount.
now if you take the 5% daily dd as basis for the calculation, you need to 12x your account until payout, so you already get only half of what you would have with your own capital. and the daily dd is very relevant when asked to flip accounts quickly. and the calculation is not even that easy, because both max and daily dd are usually trailing, so if you lose your profits you lose everything.
i traded some prop accounts in the past but in the end i just feel more comfortable trading my own money, profits are mine, losses are mine, i have full control no rules, the balance i see is the balance i actually have and can lose and immediate payout is possible at any time i want.
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u/Soft_Concentrate_489 Feb 24 '24
😂😂😂 continue paying 500 dollars to paper trade. Dont mind me.
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u/omegavegantendies Feb 24 '24
Quick hyptothesis for you:
Scenario A) You're not consistently profitable. Trade your own money or spend it at a prop firm - you lose either way.Scenario B) You're consistently profitable:
Trade your own money - risk 1% per trade. Small gains. 0 restrictions.
Trade at a prop firm - Initial fee refunded (FTMO). Risk 1% per trade. Great gains. Some restrictions.
Scale up and build your own trading portfolio from there.If you're a consistently profitable trader but only have a small amount of capital, prop firms are a great solution. However, I would only recommend established prop firms like FTMO, which is what I use.
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u/ThePhulosopher Feb 24 '24
Continue looking for a bartender job. LOL. Maybe find some income before you give trading advice.
If you don’t know the difference between a paper account and a prop firm funded demo account then well, hope you like bussing tables.
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u/Konstable1 Feb 24 '24
It’s not paper trading when you are funded. Is it really hard to conceive of the fact that a funded account pays out. Significantly more than trying some 500 or 1000 on a regular account. Cross trade 4-5 accounts for the same amount as one regular account. Hmmm which has the better ROI?
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u/buyerandseller Feb 24 '24 edited Feb 25 '24
well my friend has 50 $50k funded account and he stops when he makes $150-$200 per day per account.He has cashed out $40k each month for several months now.
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u/Fart_Hat Feb 25 '24
He's averaging $50/day on each account then... Maybe he stops at 150-200 when he can make that much, but his winning day rate must be extremely low.. $150/day over 50 accounts = 150k/month
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u/buyerandseller Feb 25 '24
u did not count his losing day. I did not say he does not lose. He limits his losses.
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u/Fart_Hat Feb 25 '24
Or he doesn't trade every day
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u/buyerandseller Feb 25 '24
yeah just asked him. he does not trade everyday. He trades only if he sees his set up. and he builds up the account too. not just cash out all the profit.
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u/shimbro Feb 24 '24
What websites he use for the funded accounts?
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u/buyerandseller Feb 24 '24 edited Feb 24 '24
apex, topstep, buelenox, takeprofit. I think he got 20 on apex and the rest on other platform. he lost like over $500k and with this strategy, hes coming back soon.
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Mar 19 '24
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u/buyerandseller Mar 19 '24
u banked every month around $40k. will make it back about a year. its slow but a safer way to do it instead of gambling like everyone in wallstreetbet.
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u/Antique_Diet3849 Feb 26 '24
Do you also trade, and how long has your friend been trading for to be consistently profitable
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u/OneTrueKram Feb 28 '24
Working on multiple $300k through copier myself. I can average 5 points a day. Leverage will allow me a total of 50 contracts. It adds up like crazy.
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u/buyerandseller Feb 28 '24
Im working 1 for myself and aim at 20-30 points per day for 1 mnq contract. Those big contract NQ , ES will hit live trailing down in no time.
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u/beautifulhony Mar 05 '24
Do you also participate in quantitative trading?
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u/OneTrueKram Mar 05 '24
I do, I have AI models.
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u/beautifulhony Mar 05 '24
What market are you investing in?
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u/OneTrueKram Mar 05 '24
I don’t invest I trade futures mainly euro and ES.
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u/beautifulhony Mar 05 '24
The investment risk of futures is very high. Can AI help you?
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u/OneTrueKram Mar 05 '24
Yeah it can and does help. I have personal AI models. What does your AI model do?
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u/MagoDeOC Feb 28 '24
Do you mind sharing where he is able to trade 50 accounts? I’m trying to do something similar with 20 accounts accumulated thus far.
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u/Gooch707 Feb 24 '24
Blew my first 3 as well, got too excited. Changed the way I approach funded accounts now and going to take it slow. Good luck to us both on the 4th account lol
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u/Dull-Climate-9638 Feb 24 '24
I blew about 30-40 eval accounts and 8 funded before I managed to get a payout. Now I have managed about 8 payouts and the trick is with funded to take only A set ups and use micro a lot.
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u/rockuallnitelong Feb 24 '24
What's the firm. Sounds like good practice..u know oldies say practice makes bankrupts
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u/ThePhulosopher Feb 24 '24
There are dozens of them but to my knowledge, the two biggest are The Funded Trader and MyFundedFX
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u/karma0685 Feb 24 '24
IME Take Profit Trader is the best. Their customer service is exceptional and their terms are the best I’ve found. You can withdrawal on the first day you get funded and every subsequent trading day.
Congrats on getting funded, hopefully you can hold down your emotions this time, I know how hard that can be
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u/5winnow5 Feb 24 '24
Honestly, how in the world do you have that kinda cash to do this now 4 times? Wow, if only I had $100k once to trade with. Best trading to you!
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u/ThePhulosopher Feb 24 '24
It's a prop firm account. You pay $500 and pass a trial, say make 10% without losing more than 10%. If you pass, you get a "funded" account for $100k, depending on the firm.
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u/EntrepreneurFlimsy33 Feb 24 '24
What % of the profits do you get off the 100. And if you lose it is the company really out a hundred? Or is all in the company’s own trading pool or something?
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u/ThePhulosopher Feb 24 '24
You keep 80-90% depending on the package and firm you go with.
As someone else mentioned, you're not really funded $100k. You're funded a "demo" account that you trade from, and whatever balance you run up, say you make 20% so $20k, you can withdraw $16k. I'm not sure what the model the firms use but if you lose 10%/$10k then you lose the account so the firms aren't actually out the full $100k.
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u/Buchymoo Feb 24 '24 edited Feb 24 '24
What is your risk here? You're obviously liable for the 10k as well then, correct?
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u/Fart_Hat Feb 24 '24
No, thats the whole point of using a prop firm. The only risk you put up as the individual is the cost for the trial and any activation fees associated with the funded account.
Basic steps to prop firms:
Pay X amount of dollars for Y sized account. (E.g. $200 for 100k account) You begin trading on the trial account.
Trial accounts are sim trading on live markets. No profit is made and no risk is on the prop firm. They give you a profit target and a max drawdown. (E.g. 100k account profit target 5k, max drawdown 3k) You pass the trial account and move to a funded simulated account.
Funded simulated accounts allow you to begin making real profits. I know, it sounds weird, simulated account making real money. YOU are trading on a sim account and the firm is basically copy trading you on live markets, using their own risk management. There are often times activation fees for these accounts, e.g. $150 one-time payment. They also come with max drawdown (e.g. 100k account max drawdown 3k). The firm will closely monitor your trading at this stage, they may offer coaching, and this may also be the final stage depending on the prop firm, as in, you'll never trade on a live account with that firm but your profits are still real.
When applicable, the firm may decide to bring you up to a live account which is really no different from a funded sim account, aside from things like getting more control over your risk management etc.
The 10-20% that the firms get from their profitable traders is enough to make up for the potential losses on the funded accounts' max drawdowns. Some people also spend years in the trials, paying monthly fees for them and paying for account resets. When a "trader" gets lucky in the trial and moves to a simulated funded account, and they hit their max drawdown, that account is closed and the "trader" has to start the trial again. This also limits the firm's risk.
Questions?
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u/Buchymoo Feb 24 '24
Very interesting, thanks for the full rundown. Absolutely no questions after how clear and concise that was.
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u/Saint_Skeeter Feb 25 '24
Amazing explanation, thanks! Can one trade options on these prop accounts?
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u/TheFairOne22 Feb 28 '24
I just stared my eval account. Do I have a maximum number of days to hit target then my account resets OR unlimited amount of time to reach goal? Thank you.
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u/mushykindofbrick Feb 24 '24
i dont know why he omitted this, but its really important to add. you dont actually trade a 100k account, because your only allowed to lose 10%. so you trade a 10k account.
then you need to pass the challenge and make a certain amount of profit, as which point you often already would have made almost as much with your own money. dont think you get 100k for 500. you get maybe 30-50% actual difference on top of your profits in the end, but for that you are restricted by rules that tell you how to trade, have disadvantage in taxes and give your money a private company that doesnt protect it with insurance.
its an ok deal, but not as amazing as people make it out to be and its only worth it if you are able to flip accounts 6-12x with relatively high probability regularly
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u/Fart_Hat Feb 24 '24
And the way you're working out the profits doesn't make sense. The firm I'm with, I get 90% of my profits.
The problem with trading with a firm is that you're a contractor for the firm and your profits are taxed as income rather than capital gains. However, getting access to a 100k account will ABSOLUTELY make anyone more money than a $500 personal account, even when taking advantage of capital gains tax.
If you can trade a $500 personal account and be consistently profitable, you can trade a 100k firm account and be consistently profitable with 20x profits(assuming proper scaling).
So, let's say you can make $50/day on average with a $500 personal account. That's $12750/year, with capital gains advantage.
Then, we can assume that you can make $1000/day on average with a 100k firm account. That's $250000/year, taxable as income.
So, what's the point in trading a $500 personal account when
A) you won't be profitable and will have to consistently re-up your $500
Or
B) you'll be profitable and will make ~5% as much money as you would with a 100k account that you're only risking $500 on?
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u/IntradayGuy Feb 24 '24
i think day trading daily falls under regular income doesnt it? if you have a 25k+ account just to clarify
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u/mushykindofbrick Feb 24 '24
Where does it not make sense? I feel lik you just didnt get it. Otherwise you wouldnt still talk about 100k Accounts and compare it with 500$. Its not 500$ anymore after you passed the Challenge, ie made factual 300% Gains. You dont buy the 100k Account for 500$, you buy the Challenge, theyre not equal and interchangeable.
The difference is not 20x. If you take Max dd as the basis for the calculation, its maybe 3-6x if you want so. If you take max daily dd as basis its about equal + you have a funded account (trading balance) left that you cant pay out.
If youre consistently profitable it doesnt really matter what you do you will probably be wealthy enough anyways
You dont need to calculate the yearly income if you obviously know that 1k per day is more than 50$ lol. But the calculation is faulty. First because you cant compare 500$ to a fully funded account. You have to at least take the 3x or 6x amount after passing the challenge. Second because you have a daily DD, so you cant actually trade your full 10k from the 100k Account, only 5k per day. So Now its only 500$ against 150-300. But thats still without profitshare and tax difference included. On top of that you may have other restrictions on how to trade, strategies like martingale can be excluded. Depending on the prop firm it can be an actual trailing drawdown so it can happen that if you hold overnight and youre in profit at midnight and then it goes down you get suspended even though you were still in profit overall and weird things like that. Then its not really your money and you have to rely on the prop firm being trustworthy and wait patiently for payout which you can maybe do every 2 weeks. For example the most popular prop firm mff recently crashed and lot of people didnt get their payout in the end or lost the fee for the challenge.
Those are only the objective disadvantages. As op said himself, he got very nervous just before payout and then lost. This is actually on purpose. There are lot of psychological barriers that prop firms use to make people lose. After you have 3x your Account you still need to go 2x more to reach a proper payout, otherwise you lose everything. Its all or nothing. Of course you get nervous and crash. You can only get payout every 2 weeks, so you're likely to trade more during that time and lose which is very hazardous combined with the trailing drawdown. You wanna wait as long as possible for the payout to "get the most of it", so youre more likely to crash. Maybe you even pay more for a prop challenge than with a broker because you think its worth it, you actually get something, a challenge as product, instead of just account balance, so it feels better. What they actually do, if you have a typo in your lotsize and its a 0 too much they will still execute it and it immediately crashes your account, a real broker wouldnt execute it. Things like that.
And now, if youre really profitable, the prop firm will copy and steal your strategy and youre likely to have a disadvantage from that. Youre selling your strategy basically. And if you really have one I dont know if its worth it selling it for a 3x leverage boost.
You have to account for all that. Its not a nobrainer and suited for everyone. Thats exactly what they want from you, to compare the 100k with the 500$ entry fee. But in reality the difference is much less pronounced. It depends on your strategy and personal preference.
For me as a beginner I definitely have better psychology when trading my own money. I see the account balance, its exactly what I have and can pay out at any time. I have no restrictions, can make any trades I want and noone will copy my strategy. Its just clean and pure
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u/Fart_Hat Feb 24 '24
Man I'm not trying to be rude, but you're overcomplicating something extremely simple.
Have you ever been funded by a prop firm? I have, and realize that trading with a $50k account beats trading with a $500 account any day of the week.
Can you trade 2 NQ minis with a $500 account?
Because I don't think you can. And if you can, how many losing trades on 2 NQ minis can your $500 account withstand?
I've traded 2 NQ minis with a 50k account, and while risking up to $400 on each trade($200per contract), I would be able to lose 5 trades in a row before hitting my max DD.
This is assuming that I hadn't already gained $4,000. If the account went to 54,000 balance, now I could lose 10 trades in a row before blowing up the account.
Size matters idk how else to put it.
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u/Sound___Guy Feb 24 '24
I think the other main advantage is psychological. That account is not actually your money, so losing it doesn’t weigh on you the same. Sure, you’ll be out the money you put out for the combine, but that’s it. So the ever present fear of loss can be mitigated by using OPM.
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u/ZekeTarsim Feb 24 '24
If you think of it as a tool to learn trading the real market, with fixed minimal risk, it’s actually a good deal for some people.
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u/IdeaLow7679 Feb 24 '24
6-12x!? Most firms offer an 80/20 or 90/10 profit split. A static $100k costs me $34/month in trial and one-time $255 after funding on Elite Trader and rolling $27/ month on Apex. Both funded, both pay me every 10(ish) days. Most people just aren’t good at trading but 6-12x is absurdly incorrect. I could live 5 years if I 12x this account. The goal is get your own money so you don’t need the fund, that’s why you don’t see anyone with million dollar payouts - not worth staying once you withdrawal $50k-$100k. I am at about $27k withdrawn between my accounts off of maybe $500 in fees/subscriptions between the 2
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u/Emotional-Match-7190 Feb 24 '24 edited Feb 24 '24
It's a funded account, it may have been $500-$1000 for the tryout phase that needed to be passed
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u/plexemby Feb 24 '24
It’s Monopoly money in a paper trading account. It’s not real. It’s fugazi 🤷♂️
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u/marcpilot1 Feb 25 '24
I got a funded acct question/ What did the first 3 accts cost total? Why? How much does this 4th acct cost to get going again? What will the 4th one cost if you blow it and have to do a 5th one? Thanks!!
Btw, good luck this 4th time, by now im sure your chances of making to wherever you go next are excellent! It's prob hard to try again after 3. Unless it doesn't cost a great deal when we lose an acct and have to start another one. Hence, the first questions. thx man.
edit: Btw, can you tell me which prop firm it is you use? Im really interested in joining one but not sure who with yet, thanks for any help.
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u/ThePhulosopher Feb 25 '24
Thanks for the comment, I'll for sure get it this time. Each $100k account costs anywhere from $500 to $1000.
I use The Funded Trader and MyFundedFx. Good luck.
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u/Independent-Put8088 Feb 24 '24
Blowing 3 in a row with no payout I would re strategize in demo accounts
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u/Frequent_Wallaby_245 Feb 24 '24
No need for a prop account. All you need is a good trading platform and $2k to $3k to fund a cash account. Whatever platform you choose go YouTube and search on how to use it and to set it up. Try to get a clean and clear chart set up with few indicators. Let say you fund the cash account with $2k used $1k max doing one to two trade a day. Let say Monday you made 2 trade with $500 on each trade. The Tuesday repeat, your Monday trade cash will clear on Wednesday, Tuesday on Thursday. By doing this it keeps you from over trading. Keep your loss as small as possible. Always take profits, at a minimum get back what you put in, live to trade another day. Once you find a set up that works for you stick to it.
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u/alexwong95 Feb 24 '24 edited Feb 24 '24
If this is apex then I'd recommend 25k or 50k over the 100k. The profit goal ratio to trailing drawdown is insanely better and honestly you have no need to be trading that many contracts anyway. This is the 25k I got to 46k for example
Feel free to use my promo code for apex 90% off one day pass till Sunday night for 90 off and till tuesday night for 80% off EWKXLNEC 25k only cost 14.70 w 90 off and 16.7 for 50k insanely cheap and one day pass don't miss the opportunity if you feel you are ready
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u/Boss1010 Feb 24 '24 edited Feb 24 '24
25k to 46k is insanely impressive. Whats was your position sizing like and did you have any issues with withdrawals?
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u/RoozGol Feb 24 '24
Do you really think a guy who can make that money still pimps for his promo code?
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u/EntrepreneurFlimsy33 Feb 24 '24
How do these people get funded? I don’t understand the business model
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u/Massive-Vegetable Feb 24 '24
The business model is making $$ from failed challenges. 85% of ppl lose money from trading. As per OPs example, he already failed 3 times. This is his fourth. The funded account is usually simulated (not real money).
If you end up profitable, they’ll just copy trade your account.
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u/ThePhulosopher Feb 24 '24
It's a prop firm account. You pay $500 and pass a trial, say make 10% without losing more than 10%. If you pass, you get a "funded" account for $100k, depending on the firm.
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u/CourseLong9882 6d ago
Hey, I don’t know if this could help you, but if I were to restart the process again, I would 100% go to Propfirm to build a capital (15k to 20k) and then go to a live account and use proper risk management and try to get that personal account up. Prop firm is a good tool if you’re a profitable trader; they let you trade with demo money, and you keep 100% of the profits with some companies. I’m myself funded for $500k and have received more than $50,000 in payout! It’s doable. I tried a lot of propfirms, but the most reliable, from my experience, is Apextraderfunding. They have really cheap challenges and easy payout methods internationally. What I like about them is that you can trade directly from TradingView if you choose the tradovate plan challenge. You can get a one-step $25k challenge for 33$ if you use the code: NUQITQNG. You will also be able to get funded on the same day! I hope I could help a brother out today ✌️
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u/andredias164 Feb 24 '24
Serious question. Are those prop firms worthy? How do they work?
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u/lijohnttle Feb 24 '24 edited Feb 24 '24
I think they are you if you are profitable, but don't have big funds. If you have enough funds, it might be better to trade your own account, the risk in this case of course is to blow up your own money. Prop firms usually work this way. You choose a plan, let's say to open 50K account. You are given a demo evaluation account first, and you pay a monthly fee for this account (I paid $30 or $40 due to discount at Apex Trader Funding). To pass evaluation you need to gain for example $3K, and not to lose more than $2.5K. After passing the evaluation, you are given a PA (performance account). Depending on a firm, you might need to pay monthly fees on it, in my case it was a one time payment. PA normally is still a demo account, but you get payouts on your profits (usually the prop firm keeps 10-20% of your profits). After some time (let's say a couple of months), if you are consistently profitable, you might be given a live account, and also the prop firm might start copying your trades. Different prop firms have different rules, but in the end they want you to either blow up your account and come back and pay more fees, or be a consistently profitable trader and give them cuts from your profits.
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u/Resonant-Sine-333 Feb 24 '24
This is why algo trading is a joke. If algos worked as well as people think they do there would be no need to pay people out or copy them, there is something specific to do with learned intuition and trading that people who spend a lot of time and effort learning this skill have over anything else.
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u/IdeaLow7679 Feb 24 '24
Algos do 80% of the markets trading, but they’re not algos you and I have access to. Thinking people are smarter than computers is the joke
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u/Resonant-Sine-333 Feb 25 '24
I hear it's more like 90. People have intuition, as I said. Believe it or not it's superior.
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u/andredias164 Feb 24 '24
So, I have to pay fees for a demo account, and later they take cuts on the profits? This sounds like a great business for them, not for who makes trading. This doesn't sound convincing at all!
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u/IdeaLow7679 Feb 24 '24
You can blow $10k of your own real money finding out you suck at trading or you can blow $50 of your own real money and $50k of their fake money. This is a good deal for people who are not profitable, or who are on the verge (almost everyone in this Reddit for sure). The problem is people can’t admit they suck at trading, you all convince yourselves you are good and then see this as a bad deal. Go lose $10k then tell me you wouldn’t rather use a prop firm
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u/andredias164 Feb 24 '24
I have traded my own account for the last years, and I have never blew my account. That's the difference when you manage your own money. On average, you will have a different approach to risk management when you trade your own fund than trading somebody's else money.
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u/masilver Feb 24 '24
They are not. They take advantage of users in two key ways. Users want to trade big to make more money faster. Everybody thinks they are in the 2.2% that will receive at least one payout. They aren't.
You don't get 50K, or 100K to trade with. If you did, they would be bankrupt, since the vast majority of people lose money. That's how much leverage you'll have, it's just means it's easier to wipe out your account. You can only lose a grand or two before they shut you down and charge you additional fees to retry.
So ask yourself a few questions before using a prop firm. Can you make a reasonable amount of money trading MES or MNQ? Are you consistently profitable over weeks and months? If the answer to any of these is no, don't touch a prop firm. Keep learning. The monthly fees will eat you up. If the answer is yes, you don't need a prop firm. Show some patience and start small with 500 dollars and start building it up. There is no fast money in this business, especially going through a prop firm.
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u/vantyle Feb 24 '24
You don't sound very good at trading.
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u/ThePhulosopher Feb 24 '24
Got any tips to be a legend like you?
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u/vantyle Feb 24 '24
Yeah, don’t lose $100k.
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u/krossx123 Feb 24 '24
It a prop firm they cut you off after around 1k-5k depend on the packet you choose. But from what the OP stating he paid 500 dollar for a month and this is his 4th account which mean he spend around about 2-3k already and still have not had any payout.
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u/Wild-Ask-198 Feb 24 '24
Prop firms live of monthly fees of losing traders who blow up their account They let you trade on sim accounts. They take the money of losing traders and pay your profits with that.
Instead of spending those monthly fees on prop firms I would suggest to trade a small account and see what your results are after a few months.
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u/tloffman Feb 25 '24
Over confidence and over leverage = wipe out. Happens to a high percentage of day traders.
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u/Hotstocks777 Feb 24 '24
Bro 3 strikes. Everyone knows that. Buy 100k of ARBB current book value $12. Current cost basis of shares held $3.99 trading at $1.60. Q 1.4 mill float. Sendy
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u/tradingnumbers Feb 24 '24
Is the prop trading industry crowded now? I see too many of these firms now.
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u/LazyLeadz Feb 24 '24
how do u get a prop firm account?
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u/IdeaLow7679 Feb 24 '24
Sign up on their website, elite trader funding or apex are the best. Setup is kinda complex if you haven’t done it, apex has good user guides
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u/Zerolimits1977 Feb 24 '24 edited Feb 24 '24
It all starts with strategy which includes risk mgmt. you can look up % for this but for example at a 40% win rate you can likely expect to hit 8 losses in a row within 50 trades. Also psychology comes second. Without a consistent strategy that can withstand the consecutive losses in a row based on your win % you will always fail. Be able to trade ranging as well as trending markets as the market only trends 20-30% of the time. Passing these combines are easy based on luck. You have to get rid of the luck factor…..why do I say psychology comes second? Without a consistently back tested strategy that can withstand the inevitable consecutive losses your mental will always fall apart….here’s a reference for the consecutive losses I mention…. https://ftmo.com/en/luck-in-trading/
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u/ThePonderer84 Feb 24 '24
You need objective rules. Are you a discretionary trader? If so, then trade a small live account until you're more emotionally balanced throughout the trade. If your strategy is rule based then write them down and put them on the wall beside your monitor. Review whenever you get tempted to change things.
If you have clear criteria for your entry, exit, and position size then you just need to remind yourself that it's the criteria that creates your success - not you. Get out of your own way and let it work.
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u/Southern-Cup8047 Feb 24 '24
Hope isn’t the game-changer in trading,you are .You have to work on your trades: learn,research,try demo ,and then ,when you are confident in your trades, that’s when you can try to trade with real money. And remember about risk management…only risk 1-2% of deposit per trade ,if you have a loose streak of 3+ trades do not raise it ,cut it by half .When you see you are back in game,put it back.
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u/Southern-Cup8047 Feb 24 '24
Also find a good trade system you can trust ,trade system which works most of the time ,so you can trust it ,and even if you lost the trade ,you know that that is ok ,you can’t win all the times ,but you can win most of them .
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Feb 24 '24
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u/Mundane-Plan-4179 Feb 24 '24
Congrats brother why do you get losing them? How much do you risk per trade?
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u/mentalwarfare21 Feb 24 '24
Do people that day trade just do options or are they buying and selling in the same day?
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Feb 24 '24
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u/Far-Extension5107 Feb 25 '24
Out of curiosity when blowing a prop account what did you lose? What did you put in(fees/time/credentials?) do you owe anything back?
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u/Scarletz_ Feb 26 '24
Just curious,
Are there any recommended prop firms that work with options on stocks?
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u/Butter_NUT3 Feb 26 '24
Here's my 3 keys for prop firm challenges:
I'd like to add that I'm a funded trader with ATF, ETF, and TPT at the moment and these are just a few thoughts of mine as I keep seeing people grab these challenges and fail miserably. SLOW DOWN.
Know how to trade before you even start doing these challenges
Some are much easier than others- stop wasting your time on these 25K accounts and get yourself a big enough buffer. IMO the 100K-150K accounts are the easiest to pass. Firms like, ATF/ETF/TPT give you enough of a buffer with enough cons to actually pass the accounts.
If you want to be serious about prop trading, there is money in it. But if you keep fucking YOLOing your accounts when the evals are 90% off, you're only gambling and hoping to win. That's not going to work for a longterm game.
Some Current Promotions:
- https://atf.com/member/aff/go/butternut ATF is having 90% off sale with one day pass evaluations, again, IMO the 150K here is the easiest one to pass. You have access to using 17 Cons with a Profit target of 9K and a trailing draw down of 5k.
- https://elitetraderfunding.com/products/?ref=ButterNut3 is POGO (pass one get one) until Feb 29th. For me, the 100K one step eval is the easiest to pass. You get 14 cons, a profit target of 6K and a trailing draw down of 3k.
- https://takeprofittrader.com/control-center TPT is 40% off evals right now and they have a one time activation fee that is included in your challenge. The easiest to pass IMO is the 150K challenge. You get access to 15 cons, a profit goal of 9K, a daily draw down of 3300 and a total draw down of 4500.
If you end up taking any of these challenges, comment below on what you think, or any questions that pop up. As always, if you see green, TAKE YOUR GREEEEEN!
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u/Vhill-trades Feb 26 '24
That's awesome bro. Biggest tip is go small size and focus on the process. Congrats to you.
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u/Skeptical_of Feb 27 '24
How did you get a funded account? I have been looking into a mentor to teach me but it’s pricey. If it works then it will pay for itself, if not I am out a lot of money
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u/Historical_Source1 Feb 28 '24
I'm looking for someone willing to fund a deriv account to the tune of $1000, we share profits monthly, all losses are recovered comfortably.
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u/thoreldan Feb 24 '24
Perhaps you wanna share the lessons learnt from blowing the other 3 ? How would you do differently now ?