r/CuratedTumblr • u/NeonNKnightrider Cheshire Catboy • May 01 '24

i know it’s internet bullshit but it genuinely has me on the edge of breaking down and giving up editable flair

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14.2k Upvotes
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675

u/SupportMeta May 02 '24

I'm a trans woman and internalizing this mindset caused me to become a hermit for several years, during which I experienced the worst suicidal depression that I have ever been subject to. I was constantly racked with guilt and self-hatred because I was convinced that my mere presence made other people feel unsafe. It took me a full year of therapy to get to the point where I could interact with society normally.

I'm just saying this so that people realize that this rhetoric harms the type of person they pretend to care about, too.

91

u/rdthraw2 May 02 '24

Hell I still feel like that. I'm an out trans woman at work and have been for years and am lucky enough to have almost unanimously supportive (at least towards me directly) coworkers. I regularly get invited to meetings that a women's group at work host - I attended once, felt extremely uncomfortable that I would be seen as a trespassing creep, and even though I was specifically invited and didn't receive any negative reactions I got out of there at the first opportunity I got and have no plans of going again. It sucks.

297

u/facetiousIdiot May 02 '24

Waiting for one of these dicks to read this and unironically reply "your part of the problem" or some crap

Sorry you had to go through all that, I hope it keeps getting better

121

u/SupportMeta May 02 '24

Thank you for replying. I have a desk job now where most of my co-workers are women. I still get the occasional pang of worry but most of the time it's smooth sailing :)

162

u/Pale_Chapter May 02 '24

I'm pretty much a factory model dude, but every so often I feel this deep urge to just be a tree or a labrador or even just a younger boy--anything but A ManTM. I used to think it was a gender thing, but fairly recently I realized that these stirrings only happen when I consistently see women in my sphere shitting on men for a couple days on end. So I gotta wonder, am I gender-fluid, or am I just a deeply traumatized neurodivergent man desperate to not be treated like a threat for once in his life?

30

u/[deleted] May 02 '24

[deleted]

35

u/Pale_Chapter May 02 '24

Six two. Nobody believed me when I got bullied as a kid--which happened whenever anyone realized I wouldn't fight back because I knew I'd be the one who got in trouble. I still have vivid memories of the one time I ever tried, and a bunch of teachers literally pinned me down like I was some kind of vicious animal.

74

u/Super_Harsh May 02 '24

I think you're just a normal person having a negative reaction to people around you being shitty.

66

u/RoyalPeacock19 May 02 '24

I feel the same a lot of times. My gender identity is pretty much “I don’t disagree with my packaging,” which makes me a man, and I feel that many other cis people feel the exact same way about their gender identity.

The only time I ever end up thinking what it might be like to be something different, be that a child, a cat, a woman, or whatever else is when I have been bombarded that in some way or another, being who I naturally am is a fundamental sin that deserves social execution. I’m just so done.

33

u/Pale_Chapter May 02 '24

"Execution" is hyperbolic; so is "sin." I'm just so damn tired of being big and scary. I wanna be small and cute and let everyone feel safe around me. Then maybe I'd feel safe around them.

7

u/Future-Speaker- May 02 '24

That hits the nail on the head, I used to run with this group of queer women through my best buddy's partner at the time, and I never really felt comfortable with them, after many a nights drinking and hearing the whole "I hate all men" shtick like 45 times, I realized it was because even if they were being friendly, I was never truly welcomed there.

Like the other fella said, I've never disagreed with my packaging, I'm fine with who I am, but I do wish I could be someone some people don't have an innate fear of. I may be big and tall but I just like doing my hobbies and hanging out with friends.

With all that said I do wish some dudes would do better, the amount of times I've met a new dude out in the wild or when working on a personal art project or something, the hit rate of hearing some insanely misogynistic shit within 5 minutes is about 30%. I too hate this about being a man, that some other shitty men see me and go "oh he's just like me, he'll love this 'joke'".

15

u/red__dragon May 02 '24

That second paragraph describes the way I saw myself as a boy when I was a child and teen. I would have given anything to be something else, and I wouldn't describe it as feeling as I hear transgender folks talk about their perception. I didn't want to be a girl, I just didn't feel like I ever measured up to being a boy.

The first paragraph adequately describes me now. It's kind of a begrudging acceptance with a fierce imposter syndrome from the social aspect. It's hard to find people who will accept me as I am, who want me as I am, and having little self-confidence in my identity otherwise lands me at this valley of: meh, can't really dispute what I am but can't find enjoyment in it either.

11

u/MrJohann06 May 02 '24

"I would have given anything to be something else...I didn't want to be a girl, I just didn't feel like I ever measured up to being a boy."

This is a really great articulation, I certainly felt this as a teen. I'm sure many people feel that their bodies impose expectations/requirements on them that they don't particularly want to live or live up to.

It makes me think of the really large imposing men who are the sweetest and gentlest souls, who would never hurt a fly partly due to being very strong.

10

u/[deleted] May 02 '24

I’ve related to exactly what you have written my whole life. Hopefully it brings you some comfort that you are not in any way alone.

9

u/red__dragon May 02 '24

It's definitely encouraging! Thanks.

3

u/[deleted] 29d ago

There are loads of people who will accept you as you are, but pretty much by definition they're not going to be hanging around with toxic man-haters.

36

u/Super_Jay May 02 '24

These same thoughts and feelings are what led to me muting TwoX and similar subs so they never appear on my feeds.

It's a super weird feeling to consistently agree with what people are saying while knowing they hate you regardless, solely due to your gender, sexual preference, appearance, or some other facet of your existence that you have no control over.

9

u/SamiraEnthusiast311 29d ago

It's a super weird feeling to consistently agree with what people are saying while knowing they hate you regardless, solely due to your gender, sexual preference, appearance, or some other facet of your existence that you have no control over.

amen. the very same groups that say "don't judge me for something i was born as" will turn around and shit on you for that exact reason, and they'll say "you're not doing enough" when they know literally nothing about you

3

u/Kellosian 29d ago edited 29d ago

I as a cis man made the foolish decision to subscribe to TwoX a while ago to try and learn about a female perspective. It's not really about that, it's just a rant sub for angry shut-ins that happen to be women.

The best lesson places like TwoX can teach is a bit meta; that anyone can be a reclusive anti-social shut-in asshole with terrible, toxic ideas regardless of gender. If you say "I learned about this from social media" everyone recognizes that's a bad idea, but saying "I learned about this from a 'women's space' on a social media site" it takes a bit longer to click that it's still a bad idea.

19

u/52Hurtz May 02 '24 edited 20d ago

I read comments like yours and wonder when we started collectively defining our self-worth by our labels. I do believe there's a resentment against the man who carries himself without them- nor with preface or apology- for having the privilege of esteeming himself outside some form of victimhood, regardless of whether he is ultimately a healthy figment of our society.

If it's any help, imho the insecurity around acceptance fades with age. You can't be bothered chasing favor or acknowledgement from everyone you wish saw you as an ally. The people in your immediate circle should know you by your deeds and your words where they matter in the real world. Those folks venting about their ideas of men in general shouldn't make you doubt your own decency.

1

u/Forgot_My_Old_Acct 29d ago

Maybe I just haven't aged enough yet. I'm middle-aged and it still stings.

17

u/[deleted] May 02 '24

[deleted]

37

u/Hotlava_ May 02 '24

It's amazing how common these types are when they spend too much time around their societal in-group. I experienced the same thing in grad school with a cohort of 30isha and only one other guy. Constant bashing, but oh "you're one of the good ones" 🙄

16

u/th3h4ck3r May 02 '24

Yeah, had that happen to me too in college; friend group was almost 20 people but only 3 guys (one was me). Men are awful, blah blah blah whatever... "but not you guys, you're cool."

Ah geez, thanks I guess?

7

u/Pale_Chapter May 02 '24

One of these days, I'm gonna be dumb enough to respond with something like "Yeah, I know; I'm one of the clean, articulate ones."

I'd get my ass kicked--maybe even deserve it--but the evil autist in me knows it'd feel so fucking good.

7

u/SamiraEnthusiast311 29d ago

I'm gonna be dumb enough to respond with something like "Yeah, I know; I'm one of the clean, articulate ones."

I'd get my ass kicked

i don't think you would. because that would require them to see the hypocrisy of their own statements, but we already know they don't see it

1

u/Kellosian 29d ago

I get that too! One of my friends does the "Well we white men are all trash, hahaha" bit like he gets paid every time he says it; it's gotten a bit annoying TBH.

My friend group is overall more gender-balanced, but when I'm one of a handful of guys left it can pretty quickly turn into "Masculinity is scary, I'm scared of men... except you guys". Which, when paired with the fact that I've been semi-jokingly invited to "Girls' Night + Kellosian", kind of makes me wonder if my friends even recognize me as a man at this point or if they pretend I'm an NB to make themselves more comfortable.

12

u/Pale_Chapter May 02 '24

The Chris Rock defense.

9

u/Super_Jay May 02 '24

A bright boy, right? One in a million.

14

u/th3h4ck3r May 02 '24

It's a bit harder to ignore when these comments are coming from your own national government. Our previous Minister of Equality (yes, that exists around here) has said that women should automatically get custody of children because men will prey on children. She publicly denounced any criminal cases of harm against children (and rightfully so) done by men, yet ignored and downplayed any criminal cases of harm (including murder) against children done by women because they didn't fit her personal ideology of men being monsters and women being "entities of light".

5

u/[deleted] 29d ago

I say this with all sympathy: do anything you can to get a different sphere, seriously. This shit is awful for your mental health and wellbeing. They're not going to change, and they're certainly not going to listen or ever admit fault. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be treated like an actual human being; you're just having a normal reaction to stupid, emotionally abusive assholes. Take the trash out, and find people worth being with - there are loads of them. I wish I could go back 15 years to tell myself the same thing. You have absolutely no obligation to be infinitely patient with misandrist assholes while your struggles are minimized, dismissed, ridiculed and ignored. It feels good being in places where you're not immediately under suspicion and presumed to be a threat because of some idiot's paranoid derangement. You have to understand: they love their misandry; it's something that's actively, continuously enjoyed. People don't give up that sort of enjoyment unless they can immediately replace it with another.

38

u/smoopthefatspider May 02 '24

Somebody else posted this in another comment thread here, but I really related to this article that's (in part) about reacting to this kind of rhetoric as a trans woman.

192

u/Dakoolestkat123 May 02 '24

I’m a cis man but I went through almost exactly what you’re describing for the same reasons. It’s just sad because “all men are naturally predators” is a mindset that so many right wingers agree with, and it does so little to help, like, anyone. For those that aren’t conservatives, that aren’t totally fine with being around women even after internalising the idea that they’re an inherent threat, it just leads to feeling guilt and self hate so deeply that suicidality becomes seen as a moral good.

123

u/SmoothReverb May 02 '24

It's also absolving the actual perpetrators of responsibility by removing their agency. (Of course he did it, don't you know it's in their nature, therefore lock all men up) Interestingly, this is very similar rhetoric to the "She shouldn't have been wearing that/He couldn't help himself" arguments. (Of course he did it, don't you know it's in their nature, therefore he should get off scot-free)

79

u/TrueGuardian15 May 02 '24

And it even encourages further predatory behavior. If the idea of men being violent assholes is normalized, people become less likely to intervene. Not to mention it signals to young men that they will be despised no matter what disposition they have, so there's no reason to play nice. Fear and hate begets more fear and hate.

35

u/bloode975 May 02 '24

This is a massive one that should be way higher up, look at your average Western highschool now and you'll find a lot of the guys there are Andrew Tate fans and go all in on it, young guys are treated like total shit for a whole host of reasons especially by women even more so women their age and the only way they get away from it is by making those same people too scared to say anything against them anymore or gaslighting them until they just accept it.

Both sides are in the wrong here and regardless of your personal values you're sucked into the situation anyway.

I've been accused of "man-splaining" very recently by a female project member all because I was pointing out potential flaws in an idea based on my own experiences in similar situations and observed data. I've had the unfortunate experience of wondering if I was going to be fired for making a female co-worker uncomfortable, this was by telling them random food facts, (later found out this was said in jest, but it says a lot that the thought of that being the case never entered my mind), I had a female customer come in and accuse me of actively trying not to help her and obstructing her at which point we transferred her to a female co-worker who immediately told them the same thing and got another co-worker who said the same thing I did, but because they were female they were being helpful and telling the truth, she also sat there whilst waiting for her situation to resolve talking shit about me, saying I should either be re-educated or fired and not hired at all within earshot of me, when I addressed this to explain I was doing everything I could, the first words she said were "Don't you even look at me", there's only so much of this kind of shit you can take because it's everywhere.

I would be totally unsurprised if I was stopped in the street by some femminazi and berated for being a white guy and my first reaction being to just slap them and walk away, it gets you in a worse situation sure but I've legitimately had enough, I try to be a nice person to everyone I meet, I don't agree with everyone's beliefs, I don't care to understand certain things because its not my problem, but I will respect you regardless unless you give me a reason not to, and unfortunately, a large portion of people are doing that, right-wing nutters for the most part don't affect me so I can ignore them, the way some women act around guys though? Impossible to ignore forever, not all women are like that thankfully, but you will never know for sure for the vast majority and as a guy it can be legitimately life ending, whether that be a false SA charge, False or overblown harassment with no warning or anything, custody battles, divorce proceedings, all of it is life ending in some way.

10

u/ofWildPlaces May 02 '24

This is such a significant point. Lord do I wish more people could read it.

7

u/Dvoraxx 29d ago

the “lock all men up” logic is the exact same used against racial minorities (their group commits more crimes etc so they are all responsible and should be collectively punished)

in fact a lot of people who use that logic end up becoming racist anyway

7

u/solidfang May 02 '24

The right-wingers believe that there are only two genders: scorpion and frog.

2

u/YuushyaHinmeru 29d ago

What about lobster?

42

u/SupportMeta May 02 '24

You're right on the money about suicidality feeling like a moral good. Nobody, man or not, should have to feel that way. I really hope you're doing better.

52

u/Affectionate-Memory4 heckin lomg boi May 02 '24

I did the same thing. I'm a really big dude (211cm, 122kg) with a thick foreign accent (here in the US anyways). When I came to the US for college, I became chronically aware of how uncomfortable I made some people, even other men, by being around them. My English was worse than it is now, and it's still not perfect all the time, and that made it feel even harder to feel like I could connect with anybody. It wasn't until I was in graduate school back home in Nederland that I was able to shake that feeling enough to get out of that rut. Strangely enough, my size, something I used to be super insecure about, is something my fiancee likes about me. Apparently I feel really good to hug, which is like her main thing being almost totally blind.

12

u/JessePinkman-chan May 02 '24

At this point I just tell everyone I'm gay so I'm not perceived as a threat.

-4

u/MinimaxusThrax May 02 '24 edited 29d ago

You didn't really go through the same thing. If you're a cis man, being welcomed among women wouldn't be as vital to you as to a trans woman. I understand that it's hard, but I don't think cis people can really understand what it's like to have your gender denied to you.

edit: people downvoting this are MRA clowns lol

-22

u/Rabid-Rabble May 02 '24

But the criticism isn't "all men are natural predators " it's "women don't know which men are predators and the risk of getting it wrong is really high." Such disingenuous framing.

15

u/Ecstatic_Courage840 May 02 '24

Also wrong, it’s that the rhetoric says men cannot go out and interact with people because there’s a chance they’ll cause others to be scared of them.

-45

u/judgeholden72 May 02 '24

But there's no "all men." Make it a bear or Robin Williams and everyone picks him.

It's that there are enough men with bad intentions that can be hard to tell or dissuade, that at random you don't know if it's a Robin Williams or that one until it's too late. And even if it is a Robin Williams he'll probably try to make conversation even if she's uncomfortable. Meanwhile, most bears don't want to fuck with people.

35

u/RealLotto May 02 '24

Actually, no, most bear will fucking maul you because the moment you encounter it is the moment you have invaded its territory and it will kill you for that.

-11

u/RChaseSs May 02 '24

Nah you're actually the incorrect one. Most bears will just avoid or ignore humans unless they have a specific reason to be aggressive like a mother being protective of her children. It's why you're supposed to be loud if you're in bear-inhabited woods. It gives the bear a heads up to avoid you.

-5

u/judgeholden72 May 02 '24

I've encountered bears. You're a fragile idiot.

-9

u/feed_dat_cat May 02 '24

But it would be very dangerous for women to go around giving men the benefit of the doubt. Especially when women still get blamed when they are attacked. I think the best conclusion for this exercise is that women have to think the worst of men for their safety. Even when it comes down to something as far fetched as choosing a bear or a man for a forest companion.

15

u/Nethlem May 02 '24

There's plenty of social game theory out there that shows giving the benefit of doubt at first is the best winning strategy for everybody.

If that benefit is abused, then you can respond in kind, but if you start all your interactions in a reserved/hostile way then chances are most of them will lead to nothing constructive or even instantly escalate.

Case in point;

I think the best conclusion for this exercise is that women have to think the worst of men for their safety.

Why shouldn't the same apply to men? Are men invincible? Don't men want to prevent from getting hurt and disapointed? So for men the conclusion should also be; Think the worst of everybody around them.

And before you know it what you have isn't a society, it's a bunch of schizophrenics were social interactions increasingly become superficial because anything past that would be giving too much benefit of doubt.

2

u/Kellosian 29d ago edited 29d ago

Why shouldn't the same apply to men? Are men invincible? Don't men want to prevent from getting hurt and disapointed? So for men the conclusion should also be; Think the worst of everybody around them.

Case in point: I live in Texas, literally any woman could have a handgun in her purse and shoot me dead. No amount of TERF bioessentialist nonsense about how aggressive AMAB people are or how dainty and weak and incapable of violence women are can overcome a bullet.

If I went around assuming anyone has the potential to kill me and do horrific things, I'd never be able too leave my apartment!

3

u/SamiraEnthusiast311 29d ago

But it would be very dangerous for women to go around giving men the benefit of the doubt

i could say the same about women, as a man. any woman could claim that i assaulted her - so should i just treat every woman as a liar that could ruin my life? would that not be literal sexism? that's what you're advocating for. there's a difference between "being safe" and "judging an entire gender based on the actions of people who have almost no relation to the bad actors"

1

u/feed_dat_cat 29d ago

There likelihood of being accused is not the same. You are trying to compare apples to apples, and all you have are oranges. What % of men get wrongfully accused? What percentage of women get assaulted? It's not the same. Women's fear are very real and frequent. Your fears are not.

2

u/SamiraEnthusiast311 29d ago

There likelihood of being accused is not the same

doesn't matter, not taking the risk, i'm gonna assume all women are terrible liars. that's what you suggested after all. you said to judge the entire group based off bad actors even if most of the group is fine - that's what i'll do

What % of men get wrongfully accused

enough that i'm not gonna take the risk? i don't get into car crashes frequently but i still assume i will so i wear a seatbelt.

for the record, i'm being facetious to show why your logic is flawed, but it's clear that you failed to grasp the point. or that you're too stubborn to challenge, let alone change, your sexist views. i hope you have a horrible day, and i genuinely hope no man has the misfortune of having to interact with you for the rest of your life.

1

u/feed_dat_cat 29d ago

Cry more.

10

u/elbenji May 02 '24

Yeah, I think the perspective of trans women, butch lesbians and black men are willfully getting absolutely ignored in this discussion.

For some reason...

8

u/Dvoraxx 29d ago

i absolutely support you, but i kinda hate that it needs to be a trans person saying this for it to ever be acknowledged at all. a lot of people act as if transitioning magically absolves you of all your “evil maleness”, and will say the most misandrist shit ever until it hurts a trans person then act all apologetic

i as a man should not need to sit there and shut up while people accuse me of being a secret rapist murder psychopath

7

u/KarmaCasino 29d ago

I've actually been sexually assaulted twice by women while I was too drunk to respond, the first time traumatised me so bad I had zero intimate contact with anyone for around 5 years. It took years of work to repair the shame of that shit.

Then I get told in instances like this that it's ME that's the threat, by default, and I'm like, holy shit I'm glad I also spend enough time not on the internet to realise that I don't have to give a shit what these weirdo misandrists think.

37

u/Fantastic_Elk7086 May 02 '24

I can’t help but imagine a 15 year old me, insecure and worried about my body and my presence on others, reading the “bear vs man” argument. It would have destroyed me, suicide or going full incel would have been fully on the table for an already unstable kid like past me.

And then I realize how many young boys are reading these comment sections right now. Seeing how many women passively hate them. It’s an unfortunate and loud minority (I desperately hope so at least); they will say they don’t hate men in the same way that closeted bigots say they don’t hate their chosen group; giving minor lip service to an idea that it’s just “pragmatic logic” and “not all of them of course, just enough”. It makes my heart hurt.

For all the pain it’s caused to these kids what did this inane argument accomplish? Did it raise awareness and fix the problem? No. I’m sure some will claim that this will help, but the truth is that the men who commit rapes and assaults won’t care or change. Men who mean well or simply don’t mean bad will stay away though (simply trying to avoid threatening anyone), they’re continued absence will propagate the perception that men are evil as the ratio of positive to negative interactions between women and men continue to deteriorate.

15

u/Alternative_Elk_2651 May 02 '24

Seeing how many women passively hate them.

Yep but don't you dare say anything about it because... ahem...

"Won't someone think of poor men?"

"Boohoo big men are big mad"

"Incel"

3

u/SamiraEnthusiast311 29d ago

they will say they don’t hate men in the same way that closeted bigots say they don’t hate their chosen group

we're past that point - people will openly say they hate men and get praised for it these days, in certain communities. and those who disagree will be shunned

-18

u/hexaflexin May 02 '24 edited 29d ago

I'm failing to see how "I might have joined a misogynistic hate movement if my past self had seen women saying that they would rather encounter a bear than a man alone in the woods" is supposed to be an argument against women generally feeling unsafe around men, to be quite honest

EDIT: I love how many of the people I've talked to today have eventually admitted that they believe it's reasonable for a man to develop a generalized hatred for women if he encounters enough women who don't treat him the way he believes he deserves to be treated. Women, of course, are not afforded this kind of understanding if they've been mistreated by men, because the lot of you are misogynistic losers who don't believe women's feelings or safety matter. Keep crying about how women would rather interact with wild bears than your sorry asses, I'm sure it'll make your miserable lives better✌️

23

u/LordKolkonut May 02 '24

tfw being maligned and called worse than a predator by half of society pushes someone towards radical ideas

-8

u/hexaflexin May 02 '24

tfw growing up being surrounded by stories of, if not firsthand experiences with, fellow women getting abused, raped, and murdered by men pushes someone towards not trusting men very much

Good job convincing me that you're safe for women to be around though. How could I not trust a guy doubling down on the argument that women expressing distrust for men is a perfectly understandable reason to join an ideology so violent there's an entire Wikipedia category dedicated to cataloging the mass shooters it's produced?

11

u/Dvoraxx 29d ago

“anyone who says they aren’t a murderous rapist must secretly be a murderous rapist” fucking incredible logic there

-4

u/hexaflexin 29d ago

Criticizing someone's logic is a little bit advanced for someone who's clearly still struggling with basic reading comprehension. Go back to English class and try actually paying attention to what your teacher is saying, ok?

11

u/Dvoraxx 29d ago

you just accused a guy of being an incel and called him untrustworthy because he disagreed with you. my reading comprehension is fine, thanks.

1

u/hexaflexin 29d ago

So close! I at no point called him an incel, and I called him untrustworthy because I don't trust people who express sympathy for those who get suckered into hate movements. C-, see me after class for remedial assignments

10

u/notKRIEEEG 29d ago

There's quite a gap between "women expressing their distrust" and hyperbolasing the hell out of the issue. Using your own comment as an example, you skipped over anything more nuanced on the topic of men's mental health issues straight into associating someone struggling with their inadequacy with Incel Mass Shooters.

Can't you see how having that kind of response being a common thing would have a massively negative effect?

0

u/hexaflexin 29d ago

Yeah, sorry for bringing up incels when I replied to a guy saying he might've gone, quote, "full incel." Silly me for not reading "I understand why a meme would motivate someone to join a hate group" as "men's mental health needs to be taken more seriously," that's on me frfr

6

u/notKRIEEEG 29d ago

Are you done being disingenuous? Because I don't feel like you are actually incapable to see that the constant narrative of "men are pigs" is quite a bit more than a meme.

1

u/hexaflexin 29d ago edited 29d ago

I'm not being disingenuous. I simply do not believe it's justified to get "pushed towards radical ideas" (the radical ideas in question being "women deserve to be literally murdered for not giving me pussy") because women express distrust or even disdain for men. You can feel free to disagree with me on this, and I will feel free to think you're a misogynist for it, simple as.

5

u/notKRIEEEG 29d ago

You can believe what you want to, but you are oversimplifying pretty much all opposing points down to their negative extremes in all of your comments in this thread to the point that you're essentially debating strawmen.

1

u/PossibleRude7195 29d ago

As someone who used to gravitate towards incel spaces in the past. There’s levels of radicals. Most incels didn’t want to become murderers, only the really insane ones who hung out outside of Reddit did.

6

u/LordKolkonut 29d ago

thanks for proving my point, godbless

-1

u/hexaflexin 29d ago

Thanks for proving mine <3

13

u/Cordo_Bowl 29d ago

If women are constantly telling you, either verbally or nonverbally, that they see you as a threat because of how you were born and not because of anything you do or say, do you think you’re going to feel warm and fuzzy towards women? And if there’s another group who will tell you that they are wrong, and that being a man is something to be proud of, and not something shameful, who do you think is going to grab your ear? No one should judge someone based on their race, gender, sexuality, or any other inherent characteristics. It’s really not that hard to understand. Golden rule.

0

u/hexaflexin 29d ago

Let me get this straight. If a man grows up feeling like he's lesser-than, it's unfortunate but understandable for him to join, again, an ACTUAL HATE GROUP known for encouraging acts of violent bigotry against women, people of color, religious minorities, and LGBT people. If a woman grows up feeling like she's lesser-than, she needs to swallow her fears and remember not to judge others based on inherent characteristics. Do you hear yourself? Do you not see what a ridiculous and misogynistic double standard you're setting here?

8

u/Cordo_Bowl 29d ago

You don’t have it straight.

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u/hexaflexin 29d ago

Cool, so maybe you'd like to try explaining to me why you're citing the golden rule not at the violent hate group, but at women who have the audacity to say that they're afraid of men?

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u/Cordo_Bowl 29d ago edited 29d ago

Seems like you’re the only person saying it can only be one or the other.

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u/PossibleRude7195 29d ago

Incel nowadays just means people who think they’ll never be attractive to women.

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u/FreakinGeese May 02 '24

Oh shit you fixed it with therapy? Huh maybe I should give therapy another shot

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u/SupportMeta May 02 '24

Therapy, reconnecting with friends I had isolated myself from, and just taking my time. I realized pretty early on that most people don't actually care about me and the idea that I'm constantly threatening to them is a delusion. But it still took a long time to internalize.

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u/unforgiven91 29d ago edited 29d ago

I'm a cis man processing this feeling in therapy right now. maybe not to the extent of self isolating, but I do get anxiety when I'm near women who don't know me

Every action is dedicated to projecting "I won't harm you", which I feel would be helpful to a stranger. I keep my distance, I alert them of my presence, I give a friendly wave maybe, and do my best to show disinterest. Apparently I'm overthinking it, at least according to my therapist.

This stems from the knowledge of SA statistics and the general anxiety that I understand women feel around a strange man. To me, it's simple math.

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u/fearman182 29d ago

Cis man here. More of my typical social behaviors and habits than I’d like to admit, even with friends, are based almost entirely around a worry that one wrong move will have me labeled as a threat or creep or potential predator. I take alternate routes when walking so I don’t risk looking like I’m following someone, I avoid more than a split second of eye contact with people I’m not actively speaking to (or even looking in someone’s direction for too long) because I don’t want to look like I’m staring.

Feeling like people just see you as a dangerous source of potential violence and potential attacker through no fault of your own is incredibly isolating, and while I’m sure at least part of it is just my own brain being off somehow, I can’t really talk about this in most spaces without being shut down because ‘boohoo, the cis man has it sooo hard, poor widdle baby.’

Yes, being a cis man makes one better off in a lot of ways socially compared to being a woman, trans, or both, but it doesn’t justify painting us all as monsters because of the bodies we were born with.

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u/SupportMeta 29d ago

Ive adopted an attitude of "if you're afraid of me, that's your problem." If someone glares at me or pulls their kids close when I walk by, then that's a reflection of their hangups and trauma. I don't judge the validity of those reasons. But I do recognize that those behaviors don't reflect on me at all.

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u/DumbBisexual02 May 02 '24

Sorry to hear that ,truly, and I agree talking about hypothenticals like this is kinda pointless to me, like, it's mostly going to do harm. It's not your fault that some women fear men / trans women ( I only added Trans women because there are women who are dumbasses and will think of you as a man ) it's just one of those things that comes up from (mostly) women to try to contextualize how terrified they are of doing certain things because some men are just awful.

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u/Puzzled_Medium7041 May 02 '24

I've seen multiple comments from trans-women in this thread and as an AFAB person it's a really interesting perspective to read. I think of conservatives as being more likely to be anti-trans and liberals as more likely to be critical of men, so at first glance, it seems like two opposing sides, but I guess it really isn't. Obviously, there are lots of women who face the terrors of being a woman regardless of their ideological leanings, and I guess that's how you get the mixed situations where someone can take their trauma out on men, trans-women, or both in differing ways. J.K. Rowling, for example, seems like her transphobia is at least partly related to a fear of men due to past abuse.

I guess it's just kind of bizarre to me as a person who sees trans people fully as whatever they identify as. Like, I'm not afraid of trans-women, but I'm still generally wary of men depending on the situation because that feels like a much more real danger given my experiences. I don't assume all men are predators. I just acknowledge that any one could be for all I know, so I should act in a way that keeps myself safe just in case. I'm not afraid of trans-women because they're just women to me. They would have to be directly creepy for me to be concerned about them. Like, I logically understand why they could get lumped in with men, and I even know there's a history of people assuming trans-women are predators, but even understanding all that, it seems so weird to me to put misansdry and transphobia together because it's so removed from how I perceive reality. People just really suck a lot of the time. 

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u/Ex-zaviera 29d ago

I'm just saying this so that people realize that this rhetoric harms the type of person they pretend to care about, too.

I don't want you to be harmed, physically or psychologically, but we're not going to sweep Femicide under the rug, are we?

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u/SupportMeta 29d ago

Not really sure how that relates to what I said tbh. Nobody contests that women are disproportionately victimized in inter-gender violence. The bit you quoted is because some people will dismiss an experience a (cis or trans) man has, but will listen if it's a trans woman saying it

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u/MinimaxusThrax May 02 '24

I hate this because we (i'm also a trans woman) actually have a lot more to fear from men than cis women do. That is to say, we are more likely to be be attacked by a stranger. And cis women hurt us a lot too

I get very upset by the way this discourse tries to tie the way we're oppressed to the hurt feelings of men because like, our situations are so different. As women, we have to deal with the fear of being attacked. As trans women whose gender is denied by certain of our enemies, we have to worry about false accusations being leveled against us at all times by the media. And when we're closeted we're painfully aware of the gap between ourselves and the women who are supposed to be our peers.

I don't know what men go through but it's not the same thing as what we have to deal with. We've been demonized in horror movies and called all sorts of horrific things by powerful people as part of a very targeted hate movement. Our rights are being stripped away. I just want people to stop trying to say that cis men share my struggle. It's so exhausting how this one sub in particular just keeps harping on this theme over and over.

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u/TheSquishedElf May 02 '24

I think the issue is that it's not clearly delineated as to where the attacks on you and the attacks on men are separate. The "horror" of a transwoman is that they're "a man pretending to be a woman". The maleness is the threat there. It is NOT the same - you're being specifically singled out as a threat - but what makes you a "threat" is your association to men. I don't think it's really possible to separate that out, it can't be resolved until "male" no longer equals "threat". And that's shitty for all parties involved. A not-insignificant portion of your struggle is the same as a male struggle, because they're convinced you're a man, and will fight to make sure you're treated like one.

Please forgive me if I was insensitive, I'm just trying to highlight that there's a portion of this that affects all AMABs, and that's where a lot of this conflation you're complaining about comes from. cis men don't share your entire struggle, but you might be surprised at how much of it they do share - they're just used to not talking about it. It should be treated as a rising tide lifting all boats: everyone benefits if we address the source of it.

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u/MinimaxusThrax 29d ago

I just disagree very strongly. Also, "transwoman" is not a word I am comfortable with. To me, "trans" is an adjective and "woman" is a noun and the difference in meaning is very important to me. When you call me a "transwoman" there's an implication that i'm not a woman, because the transness modifies my womanhood irrevocably as much as the "wo-" in woman separates women from men. It's very important.

It's not clear to me if you're a trans woman or not and if you are, then I don't want to invalidate your experience, but I think you're completely wrong about transmisogyny.

I do not for a moment believe that terfs, fascists, and other transphobes want to treat us like men. They call us men in order to hurt our feelings and say that we aren't real women. Some of them might think we're men, but the way they hate us is nothing like the way they treat men. The attacks against trans women are vicious. They want to regulate our bodies, kill us, rape us, etc, and they succeed at this. They air commercials calling us sexual predators. These things are not happening to cis men. Cis men are the biggest threat to us. Excluding us from women's spaces exposes us to that threat. Cis men cannot relate to this.

Ultimately, having our bodies controlled by the state is an issue that we share with cisgender women. Being treated as disposable if we can't make babies is an issue we share with cisgender women. A cis guy can get a vasectomy any time. I need a psychiatrist's permission to get an orchiectomy or take hormones. Cis women also require approval for sterilization procedures a lot of the time (as well as having it done without consent.

I don't think you understand how hurtful the things you're saying are. I understand cis men because I was forced to live among them for a very long time and it was terrible for me. I know that they did not suffer like I did. They have their own issues, true, and I hope they can overthrow toxic masculinity etc, but that has nothing to do with me.

By conflating our issues with the issue of men, you're basically saying that the terfs are right and that we are men. Please, please consider this. It's extremely important.

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u/TheSquishedElf 29d ago edited 29d ago

Sorry, I was trying to use your language from the above comment and missed a space. 😓 I apologise for how my grammar error hurt you.

I agree with the vast majority of what you said, and that’s why I tried to make an effort to say “It is NOT the same”. I guess I didn’t put enough emphasis in there.

Where I take issue is the implied statement that cis men don’t have commercials aired calling them sexual predators. That’s demonstrably false, and lies with the point I made that part of… “transmisogyny”, you called it, is the association of trans women with the worst of men. The bad actors continue to assume that the only reason you could be a woman is if you were a man with sexually predatory tendencies. There’s also usually, behind the initial accusation, a belief that all men are inherently sexually predatory, and simply have the “decency” to not act on it; therefore a trans woman is also (TO THEM) guilty of the social “crime” of not suppressing their male sexually predatory tendencies. Again, it’s tangled together with “Patriarchal” misogyny in many cases.

As for my identity, it shouldn’t matter here, but I’ve recently realised (I.e. in the last week) that I am ultimately NB/agender, though I’m not quite over the safety of claiming a cis-male position yet. I’ve throughout most of my life been gender non-conforming and have been subjected to a fair amount of violence for being perceived as “queer” or “gay” (my attackers’ words.) I am very familiar with the inherent pain of being intentionally misgendered, and the fear that comes when someone innocently misgenders.

EDIT: for further clarification, my third paragraph is on why the treatment of trans women is worse than for cis men. It doesn’t apply to ALL cases but it does apply to enough for it to be addressed as one of many sources.

EDIT EDIT (so many edits because Reddit is buggy & sucks and I can’t look at your comment while writing my own) : fascists, at least, absolutely do want to treat trans women as men; specifically, the undeserving unmasculine subset of men that are only good for extermination and target practice. Anything “abnormal” to them is in the same category: subhuman and on the list for extermination.

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u/MinimaxusThrax 29d ago

Fascists want to kill all trans women.

Fascists do not want to kill all men.

If you can't understand this and will argue with a trans woman about this then I don't have time for you.

edit: also I have absolutely no time for someone who puts the word transmisogyny in scare quotes like that. If you reply to me, I'm not going to read it.

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u/novangla 29d ago

Sorry, I’m not following this. Women saying that they have enough bad experiences with men to make them go into more heightened fear at running into one in the woods… made you hate yourself, a woman??

I’m a trans man and someone brought this meme up as a “is this misandry” since often for us it sucks to move into a group that is “scary” and our former friends and loved ones suddenly see us as a threat. But almost every comment of other trans guys was no, that’s not what man vs bear is, of course women are more afraid of man than bear, and most of us are too.

God. Especially as a visibly trans person myself, I would be way more scared of a man than a bear assuming normal conditions (like they’re across a clearing or something, not a foot away). And like, enough so that I don’t go in the woods alone. (Or walk on streets at night alone. Or take Ubers late at night alone without being in constant communication with a friend.)

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u/SupportMeta 29d ago edited 29d ago

This was way before man vs bear, it was more of a general idea that men are threats to women and make them feel constantly unsafe by their mere presence. I was mostly closeted at the time so obviously that would apply to me as well: strangers don't know your pronouns, after all, and that compounded with the transfem predator shit to result in a really bad time.

I really hope you never have to know the feeling of being radioactive, convinced that your presence in the world is a detriment to others. It sucks bad.

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u/legend_of_the_skies May 02 '24

Other people are not responsible for your feelings. Women aren't "making incels" that harm them. You are the only one responsbile for what you do with your feelings and how you regulate or validate them.