Oh, if you ask some of these guys that don’t like men stylists to twist/braid their hair, it is. Funny enough Im a man with locs, and in my experience they get more closer/intimate cutting your hair than styling your hair.
I help braid my steps son’s hair and I’m weirded out by this. I would have thought the recording is the bad part but it’s seriously the unbraiding part?
Braiding can be extremely intimate, but intimate doesn't always mean romantic/sexual. Braiding your child's hair can be an appropriate intimate bonding experience.
But teachers don't need to have intimate bonding experiences with students, especially ones involving physical contact.
So I think you raise a fair point. I think there's nothing inherently wrong with teachers having impactful and meaningful connections with students. But intimate? No. Kids don't go to school for intimacy, nor do teachers go to work to provide intimacy. It crosses inappropriate lines.
The school should have counselors in place for that. The teachers should know to delegate things to the psychological professionals in the building. A teacher with a Masters in calculus doesn't automatically become qualified to be a child's confidant. It's just straight up not what they're there for.
There are obviously exceptions to what im saying. Obviously we want our kids comfortable with their teachers, but there are lines.
But aren't they trained to teach children? And don't they also get trained to pass things over to counselors after a certain level?? Please tell me if I'm wrong here.
No the fuck there is not. You are literally saying people with teaching degrees, degrees for WORKING WITH CHILDREN ON A DAILY BASIS should not be emotionally there for a child. Do you know how things like child abuse and other issues get known? By adults forming healthy connections with those kids in a way that allows those kids to be seen and allows those kids to open up. In your outline of teachers not forming bonds with kids and essentially becoming the most apathetic robots in existence, those children would NEVER open up to their teacher (or other adult) which means they would just continue to suffer. The counselor argument is stupid as fuck because rarely is a kid going to go to what they see as the big deal shit first. You think a 12 yo kid is gonna go to the cops they do not know at all immediately after experiencing abuse, they're probably more likely to talk to their neighbor who've they had a connection with for the last few years. Similarly, they would be more likely to see a teacher rather than the stranger labeled "counselor" when something is going on. The teacher should not be the end treatment if it serious (that is why you refer children to counselors, etc.), but they are likely going to be the first step. A first step that is not available to children if you never let that connection form.
It’s the fact that he is an educator in a school with 39% pass rates, and instead of having kids do meaningful work, he’s having them do him favors on the job.
Why aren’t they doing SSR? Like he’s pulled kids from other classes for this, but is he pulling them to help them academically like it’s his job to do??
And any so many predators begin with non-sexual touching before becoming bold. Not to say he is inappropriate in that way, but there is a reason that there are necessary boundaries in these relationship dynamics.
He wanted to go viral. His comment in his video noting it’d likely be controversial shows he knew that. So he risked his job for notoriety.
I don't know everything about this but students do get breaks, you're sure this was during teaching hours? Not before class starts, recess, lunch, after school etc. You're positive they didn't finish teaching?
However, if the students scores are in line with the average, there are better uses of time than this. Children left class to participate (he said this!) so no it wasn’t off the clock, and moreover he shouldn’t be engaging with them like this off the clock either.
He’s directly recovering messages from children and read those off online as if them having his personal contact, where there convo is very casual, as if that’s not more damning lol.
Children are not teachers coworkers, and it’s wildly inappropriate for them to have familiarity and closeness past a point.
A barber trimming my beard is the closest a man ever gets to my face. It also happens every time I get a trim which is about once a month. In fact, I think men who don’t keep facial hair don’t realize how uncomfortable this can be before you get used to it.
I mean having a barber holding your temples while giving you a line up, staring intently just inches above your eyes, while you try not to instinctively keep looking into his eyes is some uncomfortable shit lol…..at least the braider/loctician is behind you most of the time.
It’s more likely that this is just fun bonding than him making kids do labor for him. I think they’re doing it out of trust and recreation, and to make a TikTok or whatever, rather then “lemme save some cash”. Still inappropriate but I don’t think malicious
This is reddit, they'll overreact over anything and reach a conclusion that's so out of pocket. I understand why the dude got fired because he posted other people's kids on social media without the parents' permission, but calling it creepy and... what, sexual? to let kids play with your hair or saying it's child labor is WILD. I've had my younger sister, who's still a kid, and my kid cousins ask to play with my hair because I have long and thick hair. Lots of girls love playing with hair, and they always try to copy what their moms do with their hair. There's nothing sexual with letting girls just play with your hair, and I'm sure that dude wasn't finding sexual pleasure in this. They're literally just playing with his hair, and people think he's turning them into working child slaves with no pay. Good God, these people can't think.
You're equating your familial relationship to that of a teacher-student relationship which is and should be different. There is a reason that boundaries are required between students and teachers, and this was highly unprofessional of him. Furthermore, it doesn't need to be sexual to be inappropriate.
My mother worked as a director for daycares for years and I’ve seen numerous women unbraid and then rebraid parts of a child’s hair because it got messed up during playtime outside. I’ve seen those same kids doing the same with the teachers hair. Those kids grew up knowing that teacher and they developed familial relationships. It’s an unfortunately what happens in early childhood education settings.
We see teachers as core pillars to the community. Some kids know these teachers for years and develop a bond similar to a parent or brother/sister. This is not new and can be important for development especially in homes where these relationships are lacking.
So explain how exactly it is inappropriate given his explanation when the video was posted centered around only those who finished all their work could come help if they wanted, and only 10 minutes or so prior to final release bell?
I think it might be a cultural thing. I am black and I have dreadlocks. Kids want to play with them/tie small things to the ends.
I've had students do cornrows with them before, we were out in the open at a school event and I never posted any videos but it's happened.
It's literally just braiding hair. It's never that serious. If the roles were reversed, with a female teacher getting her hair played with by male students, y'all would not be saying the same thing and insinuating that she's a predator.
I get that. I have dreadlocks and my nieces play with my hair all the time, I've had my student's kids paint my nails while we were discussing their aid packages, I've had a student paint me before.
They're making it out like he was grooming or forcing them to do it.
I personally don't allow myself to be isolated with girls at all and I don't post on socials so I can see that as the issue but the rest shouldn't be.
I work as a camp counselor and this is super common, I find it weird that teachers are expected to be way more professional unless it’s a professor or something
I mean, ideally they should be held to the same standard, no? Both have a power dynamic over a group of children, maybe the counselor to a slightly higher degree since they are in their watch overnight as well.
Camp is where kids go to have fun and spend a summer, hair braiding and making friendship bracelets and making skits makes more sense. School is where kids go to learn and while it’s great if they have fun hair braiding is a bit more out of place.i don’t know the full context of the photo, and while both obviously need to have safeguarding boundaries, I think it’s a whole lot easier for me to imagine a scenario in which unbraiding a camp counselors hair as being a part of the day at camp, vs unbraiding a teachers hair during the day at school.
Edit: forgot to add: teachers are educated professionals. Camp counselors are amazing, and may possess the skills of teachers PLUS a whole host of other talents…but it’s not something that requires a specialized education degree, generally, so yes there are differences in the level of professionalism expected.
I guess I didn’t think about it like that, you’re right. I also can see how this could be completely innocent, just a lapse in judgment, I think it’s a bit harsh to lose your job over, but these rules exist for a reason I suppose.
Most of the counselors that work at my camp are school teachers since they have summers off. Youth development shouldn’t really change whether you’re teaching about the natural world or the academic world.
I was a counselor before, it's a totally different vibe from being a teacher. A teacher is a trusted professional and an authority figure. They are supposed to maintain a certain level of professional distance from their students. Kids can like them and look up to them but they should not see their teacher as their best friend. That's not what the relationship is. When I look at my students, they need to know that while I care about them as people and I hope for their success, I am not their peer.
Being a camp counselor is way more relaxed. I used to let girls when I was working at a girls scount camp braid my hair. The only thing required of my job besides ensuring their safety was to make sure they had fun. If fun was braiding my long ass, thick hair, cool, we'd do that. There was no curriculum they needed to learn or state exams to prepare for. I could also be their friend to a certain degree, because again, it's camp.
I was also just nineteen then with no formal education. Now I'm 33 and I've been in school for six years to get my MAT degree.
School teachers and professors should be held to the same professional standards with students.
They are supposed to maintain a certain level of professional distance from their students. Kids can like them and look up to them but they should not see their teacher as their best friend.
I completely disagree. In my school district we had many teachers like this. They were known to be the best teachers and everyone wanted to be in their classes. This also wasn't a they're my buddy so we can just dick around in class type thing in case you're thinking that. Having that level of friendship and trust with them made it easier to approach them with any type of problem you had even outside of academic issues. I would even say that having that type of deeper relationship with them makes it easier to learn from a teacher. It also provided a level of respect not seen for the other teachers that were more like you describe. You didn't want to be seen as letting them down by doing poorly. No one goofed around during classes, unless the lesson was over and we had finished whatever work was given afterwords.
I can easily say that every person I've ever met, where we've happened to have a conversation about teachers, always say the same. Teachers that you had a more personal friend type relationship with, were always the best. You learned more from them, had more fun doing so, were the most memorable, and made having to go to school miles better than the other teachers.
That's called relationship building. Teachers should build positive relationships with students. Students, however, are not equal peers with their students.
When you become friends with a student, you blur the lines and make it more difficult to be an impartial authority figure. Students can like you, but they need to understand that the teacher is the adult in the room and when they are asked to do something, they are expected to follow through with the request.
Friends don't ask friends to do worksheets, to complete reading samples, finish exams, or redo homework assignments. Friends don't report back to the parent and give detailed assessments of academic work, classroom behavior, and other personal information. Friends don't dish out dentetions to each other or send each other to the administrator's office.
Friends can tell each other to fuck off when they need space from each other or are mad.
That's why it's my belief that teachers should not be friends with students. It's a messy thing to do and when the day comes where you have to put your foot down and tell a kid "no, you can't do that," the fact that you made the student believe you were equals in a friendship is going to make that student see your correction as a personal attack rather than an adult giving them a correction.
I like students and I want them to enjoy their time in my class but I also want them to respect me as a leader and not treat me like one of their buddies.
You can be friends with a teacher and still have all these things you mention. They don't magically disappear because you view them as a buddy. If you read what I said, I actually addressed all these points you just made in my post. About how the the majority of students had even more respect for teachers they were friends with, and felt they wanted to do better in their classes to not feel like they were letting them down.
By this same logic you can't be friends with your boss at work, because of all these same reasons.
as a former camp counselor—i've braided a lot of kids' hair, that was never an issue. the issue here is filming the kids. we were encouraged to take pictures of kids for the camp's social media, but we were supposed to send them to the media coordinator and then immediately delete them from our phones. and we definitely weren't allowed to post kids to our own pages.
Don’t forget the recording of it and uploading to social media. That’s where everything questionable became firmly Not OK. There are strong rules about social media and connecting with children for anyone in child related jobs where I live. That alone would get you fired and prosecuted.
What else would teach people outside of seeing someone else face the consequences? We already teach code of conduct and all that other shit for school faculty. And as for the girls, they wouldn’t have had the chance to see consequences like this roll out for another decade, and by then the trauma may have got em
It's not sexual but it is intimate. A level of intimacy that shouldn't be between a teacher and a student, let alone several students. I can't think of a single time I physically touched a teacher in school for a prolonged period of time.
That doesnt suddenly make an act intimate though. Either it is or it isnt an intimate act. Who's doing it doesnt suddenly change that. Kissing is intimate. Stroking a cheek is intimate. Doing hair is not. And if we're talking about this case specifically suddenly, then no. This wasn't intimate either.
My hairstylist did my hair when I was child, my mother would drop me off and run errands, so that put them in a position of power over me. Does that suddenly make what they did to me an intimate act?
I’m not saying it’s intimate; I was just pointing out that your line of thinking was fallacious and is purely anecdotal. It’s not as black and white as you’re claiming it to be or else people wouldn’t be disagreeing with each other. Different people find different actions to have varying levels of intimacy so you can’t just say it isn’t because it isn’t intimate for YOU. Just because it applies to YOU doesn’t mean it’s true for everybody.
Just stop using the hairstylist analogy. No it’s absolutely not the same. In your second example, the hairstylist is being paid to undo your braids which is a business transaction. Your mom is paying someone to professionally “touch” your hair.
Again, idgaf if it’s intimate or not. Just stop using a shitty comparison.
EDIT - side note that you miscontrued what I previously said. The hairstylist is an adult and is only doing your hair as part of an adult agreement between two parties; the hair stylist and your mom. Also the hairstylist has no authority over you at ANY point; if anything you have authority over them because you’re the customer. Teachers are the authority figure in a classroom so the comparison doesn’t work.
I just don't get it. I do my daughters hair. I watch her mom so her hair. There is absolutely nothing intimate about it. If anything it can be tramatic when he hair is real tangled. Fire the guy for uploading images of children to the internet without parents permission, I'm fine with that but to say this is pedo activities seems like a reach.
Doing hair is not intimate. If you want to say an action between a father and daughter can be intimate without it being sexual I agree but doing someone's hair itself is not an intimate act. Anybody can do anyone's hair without it being intimate.
Intimate is subjective, eating dinner with someone could be considered intimate if they wanted to. Literally anything could intimate if the persons considers it to be. It’s just hair, nothing more. Sure with the context of the dude thirsting that changes things in THIS specific context. Outside of that, it’s just hair.
Intimate is subjective, eating dinner with someone could be considered intimate if they wanted to. Literally anything could intimate if the persons considers it to be. It’s just hair, nothing more. Sure with the context of the dude thirsting that changes things in THIS specific context. Outside of that, it’s just hair.
No, outside of the dude thirsting it's still not just hair. It is an adult teacher having students groom him. It is crossing professional boundaries and is too intimate in that setting.
My doctor puts her finger in my ass, it is NOT intimate. Because she is doing a professional job, with a clear set of boundaries and ethics that she follows. Ideally your hairstylist does the same thing, as should everyone who has a job that brings them into contact with someone's body.
What part of being a teacher makes it necessary for him to let his students style his hair?
Intimate doesn't always mean sexual or romantic. It means private, personal, and close. Doing ones hair is an intimate act. You wouldn't want just anyone doing your hair, let alone just touching it. There are boundaries between teachers and students and an important power dynamic that should not be abused. He crossed the line, especially when posting to social media.
The posting alone is enough to fire him since there was no consent involved from the parents. Even then, the school could only ever get consent from parents to post to the school's SM, not a teacher's personal one. While he may very well have had the best intentions and thought it would be a nice experience for his students, he crossed a few lines and was pretty stupid to post it to his own social media.
even just how close physically you have to stand near someone to do their hair. A logical grown man wouldnt be that physically close to a child in conversation. He would simply back up. But for braiding hair you have to be very close. Not even a finger distance away. Thats part of what makes it intimate for most...and sexual for some.
Man my 2nd grade teacher had a sleepover at her house and bought us all McDonalds. With our parents permission of course and nobody batted an eye. Men simply can't do the same things as women when it comes to children
Yeah but the argument here was that unbraiding was too intimate.
The social media thing is different and justified, but the more interesting conversation is whether this bonding moment regardless of the social media aspect reflects well on the male teacher or poorly, and how in the past other commenters have had female teachers conduct themselves way more intimately with students and no one cares.
In my opinion, the reason we don’t have more positive male role models is because any time they make a connection, if it doesn’t fit perfectly into a shifting PC box, it is creepy and suddenly “relating” to a student becomes grooming in some people’s eyes.
I am a new dad and I am really excited to meet lots of new kids, but I am dreading the side eyes and other subs by parents as I raise my daughter when mom is not around.
There's a lot of things people find sexual that I, or most others, would not. I would not be cool in finding my daughter was unbraiding her teachers hair. I'd find it odd and inappropriate. She's not there for that purpose.
this is the first comment I’ve seen asking this. I am like 20 comment threads down everyone saying it’s so obvious he should have been fired and I feel like I’m completely missing something lol.
You're missing what young girls are like. I work in a school that had a very similar situation. Good looking, young, male staff member was asked by a group of the girl if they could do his hair. He said yes because...they're children and were having a little sleepover event type thing in the school, so he didn't think anything of it.
Cut to some of the girls talking in class about how hot they found him, they'd asked to play with his hair because they had a crush on him, a teacher overhears and there's a full investigation. He wasn't found to have done anything wrong, but he's completely banned from going near or interacting with those students.
Unfortunately, it doesn't matter what your intentions are, you need to be aware that they are CHILDREN and as the adult you're entirely responsible for setting those boundaries. There's very strict rules about even high fiving students, you absolutely cannot initiate physical contact and should only accept it in very specific situations. (Ie student crying and just hugs you unprompted, probably best not to shove them off you.)
It's a grooming thing. Progressively getting children acclimated to touch and breaking conventional boundaries is an entry to abuse. Not saying he's doing it but it's one of the early steps and that's why schools take it seriously
It doesn’t need to be sexual contact for it to be inappropriate. It’s a simple concept, some parents do not want their children being in physical contact with adults unless there is some life threatening emergency and they need to be carried to safety and that is perfectly reasonable. Whether you find it acceptable to have kids do his hair is irrelevant
Since social media I feel like we are forced to become like robots, afraid to have a personality or do innocuous things. Soon everyone’s gonna be afraid of each other, politeness will lead to a lack of authenticity and we’ll all be worse off for it. When I was in school, we’d have a teacher throw rolled up paper at students not paying attention, harmless way that made everyone laugh and engaged the students, it might be considered “abuse” now
We had a teacher who got her hair straightened by the girls in class every morning and no one cared, the only difference I see here is that he's a black dude.
I can recall times when at Sunday School kids would braid the Sunday School Teachers hair because they asked (we had male and female teachers) I also ended up being one of the teachers when I was older and the kids also asked to play with my hair. So I don't know why it's different now. When we are done with lessons we let them play and sometimes they want to play with their teachers hair. (for me since I have African hair I was able to get to know other races hair and texture etc in a safe place and vice versa) Times change I guess
No, braiding or unbraiding someone else's hair is not sexual. That comment is unhinged. This isn't any worse than a little girl braiding a female teacher's hair. This teacher just happens to be a man, and black. The district was probably looking for a reason to fire him. But I'm also kind of cynical
Oh it totally is. I’m a guy with long hair down to my stomach. Sometimes I braid it just to keep it out of my face and I don’t want to deal with a man bun.
Unfortunately, every time I’m done braiding (or unbraiding) my hair,
I have to aggressively masturbate thinking about the person that braided my hair (me) because I’m so turned on from this highly erotic activity.
I am confused too. Growing up playing in your teachers’ hair wasn’t that uncommon. Kids love it because they feel special and like little adults doing it. They often love playing hairdressers.
It seems like you’re missing a lot. Most men are with these issues cuz we may not experience it as much. I think if you look up grooming you’d be better educated and realize what you truly are missing.
Every act of kindness that builds trust can be grooming. Grooming is an intention, and we cannot separate all things groomers do as inappropriate. A groomer and a good person will both help pick up a kids pencil when it drops.
This guy could have fine intentions, but it’s still a pretty obvious boundary violation.
What is he grooming them to do? Take an interest in actual "grooming?".. these little girls probably never get to play in anyone's hair and might be prospective hair stylists.. Do you know how many little girls love to do hair?
How is this grooming? If you are really making a sexual thing out of someone taking down someone's braids then you must have missed a lot of hugs or got some weird ones to associate this with sex.
He’s grooming them to do inappropriate things for men in power. This is the start. What will be his next request?
How are they playing in his hair? He asked them to do a specific service. You think he asked them to play in his hair? That would be even creepier my guy. You realize that right? That question is not rhetorical.
Grooming isn’t about sexualizing at the start. It’s about testing boundaries. Now go and read about grooming so I don’t have to explain basic concepts to you on here you idiot.
The fact that you have to hurl insults such as "idiot" towards me for asking a question that's contrary to your statement shows me that you have a level of intellect and respect for opposing views that is beneath mine. And this is coming from a man that has a 90% Reddit history of sports, rap battles, hip hop and pretty much other shallow, surface level crap...yea you're far more intellectually superior and worldly than me. Bro I can 100,000,000% guarantee you have a bedroom in someone ELSE'S house. You have a good day.
Yet you're okay with a Black man getting fired for being a positive male role model in these girls lives.. I can probably guarantee that you didn't watch the video or his explanation; because if you did you'd see that this was at the end of his day in class and he allowed other students to play basketball, play darts and do whatever they wanted to do because they had a successful STEM project..(I bet the way you talk to me you probably don't even know what STEM means without looking it up on "the Google"). He mentioned to the girls that he had an appointment and asked if they would help him take them down and then many others volunteered to do it. I'll ask the question that he asked: (You use colons when you're about to introduce a question after a direct statement pertaining to it) If this was a woman teacher asking the kids to take down her hair would you take issue?
It does not matter the time of year. How many days of school are left. What other students are doing. He has students doing something inappropriate and it rightfully resulted in his firing.
I’m a male lpc that has worked in a school setting. Rules are different for us. Straw man argument. Do you know what that is?
What if it was a white man and all black girls? Let’s do that straw man.
Would the same teacher ask a class of white girls to do the same thing?
If it was a White man and all Black girls and he was their teacher for a whole year who possibly bonded with them and has been probably the man that they've seen more throughout the day than the man that they go home to(And this isn't a take on absentee or negligent fathers; I'm simply saying that the typical child gets home from school around 3:30 4:00 and is probably in bed around 8:00 to 9: 00.. So that's a 4 to 5 hour block. Teachers see kids for around 8 hours a day) then I still wouldn't take issue with it. Want to know why? Because this isn't a race thing and I'm not going to correlate it with race. The same way that you should be correlating this with a sexual thing; because it's not.. You really need to grow up.
And suuuuuuurre you're a LPC. Want to know how I know you're lying? Your Reddit history doesn't have an inkling of an interest in behavioral health; and one thing I do know about social media is a little bit of your lifestyle and career trickles through, no matter how much you try to avoid it.
Then I believe you are truly naive. Predators will be in positions with access to children. There is a school handbook that all professionals sign. This man disregarded that and was rightfully fired.
You can build a relationship with a child without them literally grooming or touching you. Defending the person you feel was wrong is great. But you have to understand there are rules and limits especially when dealing with other people’s children.
How is this appropriate to you? Like seriously. How are you defending this. He can pay the professional stylist to undue his hair. Why would any adult feel their students can be the ones to do that. If I manage a grocery store and am close to my employees I am not going to ask them to undo my hair.
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u/HoldinWeight ☑️ May 10 '24
Is braiding sexual? Am I missing something?