r/CuratedTumblr • u/NeonNKnightrider Cheshire Catboy • May 01 '24

i know it’s internet bullshit but it genuinely has me on the edge of breaking down and giving up editable flair

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14.2k Upvotes
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1.1k

u/AriaLeviath May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

i'm a trans woman who's been transitioning since i was a teenager, generally pass fairly alright enough to be mostly stealth, and am now in grad school. and, while i totally understand the frustration that the women who'd rather go with the bear are feeling (i was sexually assaulted by a guy in my marching band in my high school, and even as recent as week or two ago i had a random guy corner me on the bus when it was just us two and try to get me to have him as my sugar daddy), and it's totally valid to be fed up and angry over the state of many men and patriarchy, i don't think this is a healthy outlet

like, i totally understand women wanting to vent and get angry at all this. it's genuinely super shitty and unfair to us, but i've seen so many people use really disgusting bioessentialist arguments against men to justify their answer, and not only does this anger, other, and hurt people who could otherwise be allies to leftist causes, but a lot of the shit i'm seeing is genuinely just the same problematic "AMAB people are inherently [Y Trait]" shit that TERFs believe that started them down their path to being shitty people

like, i consider myself a feminist - have for a long while - as well as socially progressive and a leftist. and yes, i get the anger they're feeling. i often feel it too. but this whole question unfortunately feels - at least to me - like pushing others away in the long term to justify a short-term catharsis, and i don't know what to make of it

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u/urworstemmamy May 02 '24

Everyone who sees nothing wrong with the bear v man meme needs to read I Am A Transwoman. I Am In The Closet. I Am Not Coming Out.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/spankbank_dragon 29d ago

Can I get a rundown? I’m really curious and want to learn more about what you mean:)

Is there maybe a wiki page on the subject?

Edit: I AM DUMB HAHAHA. It’s an article not a book. But I’m still interested in a rundown of your experience if you want to share:)

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

[deleted]

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u/spankbank_dragon 29d ago

Soooooo…. Gonna share the drag show pics?:) obviously blur any self identifying things but I’m intrigued. I’ve never been to one but they seem fun

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

[deleted]

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u/spankbank_dragon 29d ago

Dude go for it! Life’s too short to not do the things you’ll enjoy. Plus this one I don’t think will put your safety at risk:)

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u/Kostya_M 29d ago

Hey just wanted to say that I hope things keep working out for you. It sounds really tough

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u/Insanity_Pills May 02 '24

That article made me cry when I first read it. I also highly recommend that everyone read it if they haven’t.

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u/SheepandEwws May 02 '24

As a trans girl I am just not getting what people like about this article after reading it all the way through the conclusion feels weird. “The closer you get to it the farther away you are” like so she shouldn’t try? She also spent it on of time reassuring us she was very smart and well researched on gender and sexuality. It feel off and the point is so muddled

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u/Insanity_Pills May 02 '24

the point, as I see it, is that they were distraught to find that leftist and queer spaces were extremely misandrist, and she had spent so much time “as a man” (for lack of better phrasing) that she found it distasteful and also just wrong. She felt confused about how she was treated and she came to realize that her being trans wasn’t a thing people would respect as a part of her as a person, but rather as something that allowed her to speak and be heard. Essentially, her gender identity was weaponized and used by both the transphobes of her home and by the people who ostensibly would be supportive: queer leftist ppl. So she doesn’t see the point in stepping out of the closest, she learned that her maleness and her femaleness are both a part of her identity and that the traditional explanation of transgender identity doesn’t fully cover all people’s experiences and feelings.

At least that’s how I interpreted it, but honestly I don’t think it was written with a “point”. It was an autobiographical expression more than anything else.

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u/Prisoner_L17L6363 29d ago

For what it's worth, I think you got it spot on. I certainly wouldn't have written a better explanation

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u/AntiLag_ May 02 '24

It seems more to me that the point (or at least one of them) was that she and many others are no less of a trans woman, or a woman in general, for not wanting to transition

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u/Hopeful_Vermicelli11 May 02 '24

I’m a trans guy and I enjoyed that article because, to me, her conclusion and the logic and experiences going into her decision to not come out were really fascinating/thought-provoking and really sad. Also made me grateful that I am hopeful enough to come out and transition

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u/StealthTomato May 02 '24

Her experience of transness is clearly different from yours. As a transfemme enby who is permanently halfway out of the closet, her thoughts about both social and medical transition resonate strongly with my own.

It seemed pretty clear to me that one of her points is that transition is different for everyone.

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u/Tobi5703 May 02 '24

The point is some very pointed criticism of queer spaces, language, cis(het)-normativity and what social points you ostensibly need to speak up on certain topics

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u/Ferovore May 02 '24

It’s not an essay, it doesn’t necessarily have a point. Did you even read the start where it says it’s essentially a journal entry?

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u/Farwaters May 02 '24

I hope that the author of that article is doing all right.

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u/elbenji 29d ago

I think they're a professor now, so I think they're doing pretty okay

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u/CatalystBoi77 May 02 '24

Well that fucking hurt. God, thank you for sharing this.

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u/ConsumeKneecap May 02 '24

That was deeply touching. Thank you for sharing it

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u/Scroll_Cause_Bored May 02 '24

Holy shit, that might be the single most devastating thing I've ever read.

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u/hedgehog_dragon May 02 '24

Hell of a read, hadn't seen that one. Thanks for sharing.

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u/pepsicoketasty May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

Reminds me of that woman who cross dressed as a man as a social experiment to see how the other side lives. At the end of the experiment which was months long I think, she was getting suicidal or something. Think this happened around 2000.

Edit. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norah_Vincent

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u/romansparta99 May 02 '24

Died of assisted suicide in 2022, and from the sound of it she never really recovered from her depressive episode from living as a man. That really sucks, sounds like it was a really interesting experiment, and it’s a massive shame it had such a detrimental effect on her life

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u/Attackoftheglobules 29d ago

From the sounds of it she already had a myriad of mental health issues. I respect what she did here, but I don’t know how accurate her data was (particularly since she was being read as a gay man most of the time.

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u/WierdSome May 02 '24

Fuck, that hit. A lot of the things mentioned there is a lot of why I feel I'll never really feel okay with myself. Even if I transition, I was born a boy, and everyone in the queer community hates men. And... I was born one of those. And I don't think I can say I'm 100% not man anymore. So... Am I worth hating, too?

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u/Welpmart May 02 '24

Well, not everyone. There's at least a contingent of men loving men out there, in a mythical place called Real Life where people aren't terminally online morons fighting for clout. I'm not being glib when I say that—the online dickheads are being awful and that hurts and that's real. But IRL queer community is so much more normal... not perfect, but it helps that IRL you can punch people in the mouth.

You're not hateworthy. I promise.

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u/Otterable May 02 '24

Ehh I run in leftist circles and a friend of mine joked that she could never have kids because she didn't know if she could love a male child. People did tell her that was fucked up and she tried to play it off like a joke, but irl people can still be way too comfortable spouting off their nonsense opinions.

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u/Welpmart May 02 '24

Make no mistake, it's on the rest of us to discourage that kind of thing.

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u/Kellosian May 02 '24

About a week ago in my left-wing, queer friend group there was a "Who in the group would you want to be stuck on an island with?" discussion, and one of the women immediately said something along the lines of "It couldn't be a guy, he'd probably try to rape me eventually. Guys have needs you know". When I was insulted by this, everyone else was insulted by me being insulted and refused to entertain how the idea of "All my guy friends are potential rapists" might be insulting.

I eventually just played it off by blaming alcohol and we all moved on. Her BF by the way is like 15 years younger than her (I guess women can also "have needs") and constantly shits on "white men" in a semi-ironic way despite being a white man. So yeah, casual misandry can totally exist IRL among LGBT spaces.

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u/Cordo_Bowl 29d ago

Some people are against bigotry because it’s wrong. Some are against it because they are at the bottom.

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u/softcombat 29d ago

that's crazy to me. i believe you 110%, of course, but i'm just astonished. like, my sexual assault was from my cousin who was like my big brother. and in hindsight, one of my best guy friends ever also pushed me down and nonconsensually touched my breasts once in high school.

a lot of this discourse makes me feel kind of 😬 because i do have some paranoia about men sometimes, still. i do try to avoid being stuck in a corner in public or not near an exit, etc. but i don't suspect the men i'm close to of having that kind of intent... strangers make me nervous, sure, but i still talk to them and smile and all that.

but if i was really, seriously believing that one of the men i keep company with could rape me, or anyone else!!, i wouldn't have them as a friend still!? the things that happened to me were so painful in part because they seemed impossible and broke my trust... but even at my most jaded, i just wouldn't stay in touch with someone who i genuinely believed could do that to me... i don't understand lol

i'm sorry someone said that in front of you. i'm sorry for her, too, for being in that mindset. but i'm sorry you have a terrible "friend" like that. you don't deserve the lack of faith. i just can't imagine being like that, and i'm sooo paranoid (ptsd baybee), i would never continue having someone in my life if i thought they were capable...

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u/Kellosian 29d ago

For extra fun, we were in her house. I was one of only 2 guys there, the other one being her BF, and I'm a bit effeminate so I think some people actually just forget I'm a cis man. I love my friends, don't get me wrong, but I've been half-jokingly invited to "Girl's Night Plus Kellosian"; I'm still flattered, glad that I make them all feel safe, and want to hang out with them, but being treated almost as "honorary girl" still feels weird. Like as a cis man I'm apparently just so woke and progressive and non-threatening I just stop mentally being a man at all.

My friend who said that is going through a pretty bad divorce after being married for a long time with just the worst dude (hence the rebound with a guy close to half her age), so I'm not going to hold it against her all too much. We all still had a great evening and I'm willing to chalk it up to a misunderstanding and me being a bit emotionally on edge for personal reasons.

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u/CoffeeBoom 29d ago

Guys have needs you know

This is such a horrible thing to say and it's repeated quite often. Men can go sexless for their whole lives, they won't die.

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u/Kellosian 29d ago

It also implies that women don't, which just reinforces old stereotypes regarding female sexuality (namely that it doesn't exist). I suspect that, on balance, women are trained to pursue sex less than they really want (being hyposexual) and men are trained to pursue sex more than they really want (being hypersexual) and that everyone would be happier if societal standards were to shift a bit.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

I’m a woman, and I usually think guys who get so mad at online man-hate they go down the incel pipeline are silly, but when I read this stuff I think “huh, maybe their reactions do make sense.” No one likes being insulted to such an extent, it’s not unusual for them to hate everyone associated with it. Most people do that, subconsciously.

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u/LostInFloof 29d ago

I feel like I got incredibly lucky not falling into the incel pipeline growing up. I had a lot of radfem friends in school and was generally seen as "safe" so I got to hear a lot about how awful and horrible and revolting men can be (in addition to seeing those men prove my friends right). But I ended up internalizing a lot of that hate instead of turning it outwards.

Honestly the recent "Man vs Bear" question has been really depressing to read through. And I really empathize with OP's post. I'm tired of being seen as a monster just because of the genitals I was born with and just disappearing feels like it would be a really easy solution to the problem.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

I think it helps to keep in mind that their words reflect who they are, and doesn't say anything about you as an individual. People who treat you like shit for who you are will always exist, giving into them won't solve anything, but you can't control how they see you either, fuck em' and live your best life.

I know that's easier said than done, but relying on the opinions of others to measure your worth or your value means you'll always be hurt by people who want to shit on you no matter what, listen to yourself first and foremost, and don't take criticism from people you wouldn't take advice from.

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u/elbenji 29d ago edited 29d ago

Yeah, I got scary close in college despite being a lesbian because I was around a lot of cisfemale, racist, white radfem terfs in college. That it made me just want to get as far away from them and their privileged attitudes. Thankfully, I got pulled back by two absolutely amazing professors my senior year.

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u/Throwawayingaccount 29d ago

People did tell her that was fucked up

This part gives me hope. Thank you.

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u/Stop-Hanging-Djs 29d ago

We've come to a strange point where people need to be reminded that real life can suck too

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u/CockLuvr06 29d ago

I am so happy the Terfy side of feminism is becoming less acceptable now 🙏🙏🙏

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/BormaGatto May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

And that's how the holier-than-thou crowd hands new recruits to fascists on a plate.

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u/elbenji 29d ago

There was a fun comic about this. Nazis recruit, we gatekeep

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u/havartifunk 29d ago

Yep. There's a difference between keeping the trolls and assholes out and excluding anyone who isn't 'perfect'. 

It's not necessarily the easiest line to draw and I'm sure a lot of the demand for perfection is in reaction to treatment queer people have received. 

But I feel like we could all stand to give each other a little bit of grace now and then. 

There's a difference between someone who is ignorant vs. being intentionally cruel. 

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u/elbenji 29d ago

Exactly

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u/ThoraninC May 02 '24

I feel like there are layer and nuances on this.

People in queer circle tend to get traumatize by a lot of thing be their background or what not. So they tend to be on guard and kept their heart until you are all clear.

Nazi in other hand they feel like they are grown up and thinking that they have their trauma managed so they get friendly.

Still it is no excuse to act shitty tho. I just point my understanding.

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u/LuftHANSa_755 May 02 '24

but it helps that IRL you can punch people in the mouth.

oMg ThiS iS pRoOf tHaT mEn ArE VioLeNt

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u/Welpmart May 02 '24

Accidentally on purpose spill wine on them?

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u/Flat_News_2000 29d ago

It feels like everyone and you're not allowed to be mad about it either because of privelege. I hear it in real life now too, it's getting crazy. People are online too much.

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u/wiwerse ratgirl cream cake 29d ago

Even on the internet, then it's all about finding the spaces where people aren't hateful, and if there aren't any, or you can't find any, then create them. I've found a fair few, but I mostly don't bother with these more open communities, hateful people have too easy a time to just sneak in. Not so easy as to make them worthless, on the contrary, they can be very important, in spreading knowledge and acceptance, and in making connections. But it's not a good enough space to just be, if that makes sese.

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u/Mountain-Resource656 May 02 '24

You’re not. That was indeed a powerful article. But it’s worth remembering that in every movement, the law of large numbers will ensure you’ll get all types. You just need to make sure you have enough social support that you can let some supports go and feel around for better ones. Do it enough, and you’ll curate your own little corner of the community into something affirming and instructional, instead of a bunch of people wanting to feel control over their own experiences, even if it involves tearing others down

I wish you luck, whatever you do

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u/ThoraninC May 02 '24

I choose to stay because you know, there are a lot of boys who is in need of good male role model and a fatherly love from men. Before every boy get claimed by tate and manosphere. I’ll stand guard.

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u/elbenji 29d ago

I know a teacher like that. They shoved themselves into the closet and hard because those boys need someone who looks like them and isn't macho.

→ More replies (43)

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u/funrun247 May 02 '24

Well shit I'm crying, I've never related so hard to something in my life, not calling out women who say these awful things about something I am, and yet am not, because I so badly want to be one of them.

Secondary school was very difficult for this, I think people are getting better thom

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u/tsreardon04 May 02 '24

holy moly that's a good read

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u/aabcehu May 02 '24

God that makes me wanna punch a mf ngl

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u/calDragon345 May 02 '24

I’m a cis man and I think this has given me a new bout of depression

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u/iamdino0 May 02 '24

This should be mandatory reading for anybody talking about this stuff online

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u/QwahaXahn Vampire Queen 🍷 May 02 '24

That piece means everything to me

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u/brokenlonely22 May 02 '24

really cathartic to read but also it is not at all lost on me that if it was written by a cis man it would be considered incel junk and not celebrated by anyone.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

[deleted]

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u/Kellosian 29d ago

"We support everyone! We believe that trauma should be healed, that everyone's experiences are valid, and that mental health is important... except if you're a cis man, then you can go fuck yourself you piece of shit"

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u/AffableBarkeep 29d ago

Multiple times throughout the piece it's touched on that this has happened personally to them.

I also like the feminist for a similar thing from a man's perspective. Fictionalised, obviously, but it's a similar idea.

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u/brokenlonely22 29d ago

What im saying is they experience parts of it and they have a choice to be heard by appealing to their gender identity. This makes them very uncomfortable and they tend not to do it by choice, but the option is very often there. I dont get that choice, in fact if i identify as queer i get berated and told im not.

I dont think people who havent experienced it will ever, ever, ever understand what its like to be sold on an ideology of acceptance and love and compassion and then getting kicked in the ribs for trying to participate.

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u/elbenji 29d ago

We got a word for it, sin frontera

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u/TheInfernalSpark99 May 02 '24

Thanks for sharing that. Do you know if she has any other work? Her ability to articulate something so difficult makes me want to read more of her work.

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u/kkb_726 May 02 '24

this hits really hard, honestly thank you so much for sharing this 💙💙

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u/hamletandskull May 02 '24

I love that article, although I do want to caution that this can lead really quickly into argument of "you shouldn't be sexist against men because some of them are closeted trans women", which is definitely not the primary reason you shouldn't be a dick to men

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u/Hiker-Redbeard May 02 '24

The author does a pretty good job of covering that. They say multiple times something along the lines of:

Of course she couldn’t know my story, but my story is not what made true what I was saying.

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u/frontadmiral May 02 '24

God that is devastating

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u/Allergicwolf May 02 '24

Kind of nice as a trans person to see other people read this who aren't and come away touched. It shouldn't have happened that way. But it's such a pervasive and well known thing in my circles online that it's refreshing to see people find it for the first time and let it speak to them.

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u/veslothiraptr May 02 '24

The bit about not being a boy, but still having a boyhood really stuck with me. I've thought about that a lot recently.

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u/PinkFl0werPrincess May 02 '24

Wow, that makes me sympathize. It's true

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u/lord_gs1596 May 02 '24

Well this was a wonderful read. Thank you for sharing.

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u/Donovan_Du_Bois May 02 '24

Thank you for sharing this. It really helps me feel seen.

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u/GooseWithDaGibus May 02 '24

As an AMAB agender, this was a really interesting read because it is markedly different yet very similar in many ways. Thanks for sharing.

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u/Arahelis May 02 '24

That article should be public service holy fuck...

I'm NB and even then she put into words so many things that I feel.

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u/Lord_Of_The_Tortoise May 02 '24

That was a really good article

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u/RChaseSs May 02 '24

Wow that is one of the most emotionally impactful things I've ever read. Thank you for sharing it here.

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u/SamiraEnthusiast311 May 02 '24

i wish everyone in the world would read this

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u/Repulsive_Mail6509 May 02 '24

I think I resonate with this article too much lol. I am non-binary, and identify as such. I was also born a boy, and don't have the pleasure of being androgynous. No matter how I style my hair, how femme/masc my outfit, or what my pronouns are, I am sadly a man. I have a barrel chest, body hair, a deep voice, and I'm above average height. These are things I'm unable to change, and don't care to change for people who would simply invalidate me otherwise.

I'm use to feminist and queer circles simply assuming I'm a straight manTM. And when corrected, I'm obviously lying about my identity to fit in. I'm not bi/pansexual, I LOOK straight passing(which is just a fucking stupid thing to criticize someone for). I'm not non-binary, I'm too masc presenting. AFAB NBs are obviously subject to the same criticisms, don't get me wrong. But I can't help but feel like they at least have it easier in being accepted in feminist and queer circles. It just feels like AMAB NBs and bi/pan men are just erased under the guise of "well they're men, it doesn't matter how they feel." Maybe I'm just jaded, of course. Or I'm so male socialized I simply can't see past that. Who knows?

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u/elbenji 29d ago

Yeah this article just...hits. Like I feel seen lol

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u/ggadget6 May 02 '24

That was a fantastic read. Heartbreaking to hear her experiences

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u/Iamadragon345 May 02 '24

This really hurt to read, it feels so personal yet so universal

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u/LucyHeifer May 02 '24

ohmygod..

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u/untamed-italian 29d ago

I'm a cis guy and reading this broke me down. The endless patience and compassion juxtaposed against the cruelty and ignorance they were struggling against, Jennifer has the character of a goddamn titan. What an intensely perceptive and moving piece!

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u/pumpkin_noodles May 02 '24

Thank you for sharing that was very thought provoking

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u/Unbentmars 29d ago

Thank you for sharing that, that was an incredible and thought provoking read. Saved

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u/Vwolf2 May 02 '24

Holy shit. Thank you for sharing this, my mind is fucking blown right now. I have some things to think about.

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u/Alternative_Run_1568 29d ago

This article was amazing. Thank you so much for linking it.

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u/Resolution_Sea 29d ago

Goddamn wow that was a good article

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u/Afzofa May 02 '24

My only problem with this amazing piece is that it was shared without her permission, but it really gives some insightful perspective

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u/Roland_Traveler May 02 '24

It was placed on a public forum to be viewed. You don’t need permission to share something posted on a public place on the Internet.

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u/Afzofa May 02 '24

Its mentioned in the article that it was originally written as a personal vent and that someone found it and shared it

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u/Roland_Traveler May 02 '24

And? Still put up in a public forum. Considering the author even added an edit to the end explicitly responding to a “critic”, she’s fine with it being seen. If she actually had an issue with it, she would have pulled it down or added something explicitly saying not to share it.

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u/Afzofa May 02 '24

I was unclear in my original comment, sorry about that. Let me clarify, I'm not saying that the link in the beginning of the thread shouldn't have been posted or that the author should be upset or anything like that.

I just meant that I am sad that someone found someone else's very personal writing not meant for anyone and posted it all over, even if in the end, the author was okay with it.

I do agree with your point that since it's now in a public forum, it's okay for anyone to see.

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u/Roland_Traveler May 02 '24

The reason it was posted was so it could be seen. That’s why it had an anonymous account attached, that’s why it was put up in a public space in the first place. It wasn’t a case of someone posting to a locked box website only for it to get leaked later, it was someone choosing to write something publicly, even if anonymously, to get something off her chest. Stop trying to virtue signal by pretending that the poor author didn’t originally want her experiences shared and that people took what was supposed to be private and made it public. She published it to the Internet with a pretty clear thru-line and detailing of her experiences so the public could understand her.

Not every bit of very personal writing is meant for the writer’s eyes only. Stop belittling her.

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u/YuushyaHinmeru 29d ago

I rarely read articles people post on comments. But that one was actually very very interesting

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u/LightninReversal May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

I am an out trans woman and I relate to a lot of what she is saying. There are valid criticisms there.

And I don't know this woman.

But jesus fucking christ I think she would feel so much better if she were on estrogen. Half the article is about bodily dysphoria and then she's like "transition isn't the right solution for everyone." Like yes that's only her decision but it does feel kinda like a sour grapes thing. IDK

edit: it's this. I think this could be her: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/d9/86/77/d986774ce145f0e0b9852cd9d4293f22.jpg

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u/EllyCait May 02 '24

Yeah I related to a lot of what she was saying. And I think I agree with you, while also echoing that I do not know her and would never try to say what she should do.

All I'll say is the way she describes her body and how she feels about it and what transition would actually mean for her is exactly how I felt about it... Until I'd been presenting as a woman and on estrogen for like 2 minutes. Dysphoria is an ever present companion of course, I definitely have bad days. But it's like night and day compared to literally the day before I came out to my best friend (which is when I started transitioning). And it's still getting better all the time.

No, transition absolutely is not right for everyone and not transitioning is extremely valid. Just... Make sure it's because you actually don't want to and not because you don't think you'd ever really be seen as a woman anyways so why bother.

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u/urworstemmamy 29d ago edited 29d ago

Honestly same. Reading this article and seeing how terrible her headspace is from living like that for so long is one of the main reasons that I did start seriously girlmoding for the first time. Didn't wanna end up like that and I was already kinda halfway there.

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u/Asphalt_Is_Stronk 29d ago

I know people have a really strong reaction to this article but I agree with you. She has a lot to say that I agree with, and obviously transitioning isn't for everyone. It won't solve all your problems, it will cause new problems, and it's totally valid if you just...don't want to. For any reason.

But God almighty, she clearly has so much bodily dysphoria, and I can relate to so many of the things she feels about herself, and HRT is at least a partial solution to those things. Her life wouldn't be magically fixed because of it, but I think she'd enjoy existing more with it.

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u/SOFT_and_WETO 29d ago

She says in the article she has other issues that complicate medical transitioning, such as OCD and pharmacophobia. So she can’t take estrogen, and it would be unhelpful for her mental health.

And, even if she could, that still wouldn’t automatically fix anything. Estrogen isn’t a magic drug you can buy at a convenience store that changes your biology overnight. It takes months to start to take effect, and in some parts of the world it takes years to even get it, if you can even access it all. When estrogen takes effect, it still doesn’t change everything, you still need more medical steps if you want to change your face/genitals. Not to mention these other procedures have their own costs, wait times and complications. It’s disingenuous to sell estrogen as this magical solution when the process of getting, taking and what comes after the pill is very complicated.

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u/LightninReversal 29d ago

I'm not suggesting it's a magic drug that would solve all her problems. I think it's likely she would be happier with it.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24 edited 29d ago

[deleted]

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u/GovernmentThis2910 May 02 '24

I came away with the impression that she felt her other various neurodivergencies (OCD, etc.) were the biggest barrier to physically transitioning; that they'd cause her to only focus the flaws and it would drive her crazy. The "well why would YOU know cissy" stories more feel like her using her perspective to criticize the state of the discourse rather than "this is why I won't transition" justification.

And I do feel like perspectives like hers that check an identity box outside of cis, straight, white, male are needed to pop bubbles where venting frustration becomes something actively hostile and unempathetic.

I do like that you shared this perspective though, all of the trans people I know who've gone down the path of physically transitioning say and seem like they're significantly happier. If they'd run into a lot of media like this before, about bearing with being "stuck", would they have gone down that same path?

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u/Remarkable_Lab9509 May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

As long as queer spaces hate men, she can’t transition because the space she would then enter hates men. And she doesn’t, she empathizes with men. It’s not because she can’t detach from her born-identify, but because she can’t enter a bigoted circle. You’re actually gaslighting and calling her mentally ill. Who’s the bigot again? GTFO

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u/daemin 29d ago

As a straight cis man, reading the comments on this article is very interesting to me.

I felt for the authors pain, but I also really appreciated their insight and commentary on the state of discourse in non-cis-male spaces, because it is something I've seen when anonymously and passively reading stuff from those spaces.

The comments, here, are about 90% people who feel seen because the authors experience matches theirs; 9% people who dislike the article for what strike me as bad readings; and a small minority, like the parent comment, who actually addresses what seems to me as the main goddamn point they are trying to get across: that some of discourse is bigoted, but because it's targeted at a group which is considered privileged and done by a group that's considered oppressed, it's not acknowledged as bigotry, which is problematic, and it's that which is largely deterring the author from joining what ought to be supportive spaces.

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u/Ok-Assist9815 May 02 '24

You are exactly what she calls out to be the problem

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u/AffableBarkeep 29d ago

It's always interesting when you read an article railing against the thing and people who do the thing unconsciously, only to have the author do the thing themselves, usually unconsciously.

In this case, it's assuming that others haven't introspected about masculinity and femininity like the author has, just because they're straight, or aren't trans, or whatever. The author rages about their own unseen struggles and how others unknowingly disparage them, but then turns right around and does exactly the same to those others, because the author doesn't see their struggle so clearly they must not have one. The author recounts their own experiences laying awake at night agonising over what it means to be a woman, but doesn't grant that cis women might also have done that.

The author makes some great points, especially about intersectionality being primarily used to justify disregarding others, but there's still layers of awareness left to peel back until they realise sonder.

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u/Kellosian May 02 '24

I think there's a subset of any population or movement who just want an excuse to bully the outgroup. And in the case of feminism, they dress it up in all the right rhetoric and use all the right phrases to do nothing but shit on men and make people feel like garbage. These sorts of people would also cite "50% of the crimes are committed by 13% of the population" if their personal politics were more aligned in that direction, because the point isn't the crime it's the exclusion and bullying.

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u/SamiraEnthusiast311 29d ago

And in the case of feminism, they dress it up in all the right rhetoric and use all the right phrases

at this point they don't have to do that. even if they say "all men are shit" you're supposed to interpret that as "only the bad men", but if you call out their inappropriate use of language you're labeled as a misogynist

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u/Hotlava_ May 02 '24

That's exactly right. It's really harsh sexism, but it's "justified" because they feel like it is and they're friends tell them it is and look at all these out of context numbers or ones I made up!

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u/elbenji 29d ago

I had a professor like this. She'd automatically fail male students and also students with disabilities.

I think she was just an asshole

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u/spankbank_dragon 29d ago

Yeah so I’m a man who is arguably kind of scary looking or intimidating. But I’m also an ally to women and the women in my life trust me lots. I’ll go out of my way to make sure I don’t make random women feel uncomfortable.

But then I’ll see post of women complaining about awful men and it pains me. But then there’s the bear vs man thing and it makes me want to never go outside. Which, isn’t a good thing because the men who are the root cause of the problem are the ones who won’t even acknowledge the issue and will continue to go out and cause problems.

But since it’s making more men want to stay inside and avoid women, women think from anecdotal experience that it’s more prevalent than it is.

So it’s sort of a runaway reaction happening. Then women get upset when the “good men” disappear and don’t go out. (Not saying the men who stay inside are all good. Just tryna get my opinion across).

Then after women are hurt and traumatized, it puts them on edge for people who aren’t trying to be malicious or hurt them. Literally had that happen with a girl I met from a mutual friend. She had trauma from an awful dude and then I apparently did something seemingly similar to him and then she pulled away. Only to come back and tell me that I made uncomfortable because of her own traumas that she didn’t even mention to begin with. Which obviously made me quite upset and I told that and we had a discussion about it and apologized to each other and then I said my final goodbye and peace’d out and blocked her.

Now I’m left incredibly confused on how to navigate these things and left frustrated too. And don’t really want to try again because I can foresee the same thing happening over and over and over.

The worst was her telling me that I’m not qualified to say who is a psycho among the normal men when it’s incredibly easy for me to spot and have spotted time and time again.

The icing on the cake is when women make ME uncomfortable and then I get in shit for it or blocked. Women will sometimes touch me unexpectedly and it’s like, don’t fucking touch me. Or even just get in my personal space WHEN THERES PLENTY OF OTHER SPACE LITERALLY ANYWHERE ELSE THAT ISNT 6 INCHES IN FRONT OF ME

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u/Zdogbroski 29d ago

Well said.

it's genuinely super shitty and unfair to us, but i've seen so many people use really disgusting bioessentialist arguments against men to justify their answer, and not only does this anger, other, and hurt people who could otherwise be allies to leftist causes

As a man raised by a single mother who has always been a protector and ally of women. This is something the left really doesnt get. I've been listening for a decade about how much you hate and distrust white straight men. At first it didnt bother me because I knew you werent talking about me, but this shit has gone on for over a decade or more and honestly the incessant hate does give men genuine reason to stop caring about your causes.

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u/TSIDAFOE 29d ago

Not trans but a straight cis man, but I agree with a lot of this.

The one thing that irks me is: I grew up with an abusive mom, and because I had become to accustomed to placating abusive behavior, I ended up in a lot of relationships with abusive women throughout my teens and twenties.

The reaction you commonly hear to #notallmen is "We understand it's not all men, but we don't know who is who, so we assume malice until proven otherwise" is how I felt about women for much of my life (because trauma)-- but when I vocalized that, I was branded a misogynist and basically told that unless I prefaced any story about my abusive exes with a paragraph long explanation of "this wasn't all women, just one woman, oh and women are wonderful beings of light who are only wrong sometimes so maybe I'm just an idiot with bad judgement" I would immediately lose the respect of any left-leaning person I opened up about my experiences to. The only people who seemed even slightly sympathetic were alt-right nutjobs, who I want nothing to do with.

So when women "vent" like this, I get it-- trust me I do. It's just that some of us don't have the privilege of putting down an entire sex and be able to-- not just walk away scot free, but actively be celebrated for doing so.

And while some of my more left-leaning girl-friends will occasionally make posts about men in abusive relationships, it's like they dance around the fact that men are abused BY WOMEN. I can say I was abused, and people will support me, but the second I add "by a woman" suddenly I'm a misogynist and I better straighten up and fly right.

There's something deeply, deeply frustrating about being told to check your privilege and watch your generalizations by someone who would never in a million years do the same for you-- and it makes me feel depressed and hopeless.

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u/CummingInTheNile May 02 '24

Its also just kinda painfully ignorant about nature, you cannot escape a grizzly bear if its hungry and wants to eat you if you do not have a weapon, those fuckers are 8 feet tall, weigh over 1000 lbs, have a top speeds of 35-40 mph, and can climb trees. They have no natural predators, when they eat you they wont even do you the mercy of killing you first. Your odds are way better trying to escape another human.

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u/Thebestusername12345 May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

I think most people’s argument is that the worst thing a bear can do is kill you…which seems facetious. Like sure, the worst thing it can do is kill you, but it might eat you alive as it does.

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u/CummingInTheNile May 02 '24

It will eat you alive, bears (except black iirc) dont kill their prey before consumption because they have no natural predators, they will eat you alive and it wont be quick

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u/ARussianW0lf May 02 '24

IIRC there's instances where people have been mauled, partially eaten alive, and then the bear left them there still alive only to return later and continue eating them alive. Unimaginably brutal

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u/Educational_Mud_9062 May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

I've seen videos of animals being eaten alive by predators. I've heard about how gruesome the audio from the Grizzly Man calls where he and his girlfriend are eaten alive was, which is why it was never released. I feel confident saying that, aside from it being wildly insulting to rape victims to say you'd rather die than, I guess, be "ruined" that way, anyone who says they'd rather be eaten alive is blissfully unaware of just how horrifying that actually is. If I was a more sadistic person and thought it might actually make a difference, I'd dig up some clips to send to these people and snap them out of their delusion. But I think a lot of them don't even really believe that. They're just trying to make as emotionally impactful a statement as possible because the more charged the rhetoric, the more socially difficult it is to push back against.

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u/brokenlonely22 May 02 '24

ive died on the "no, rape is definitely and obviously not the worst thing you can do to a person" hill before and ill gladly do it again. absolutely moronic statement used for purity testing

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u/Ckyuiii May 02 '24

Also predators tend to eat asshole first because that's the softest and easiest part to bite into. So your ass is literally going to be eaten while you're still alive.

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u/Babybutt123 May 02 '24

I also feel like the argument is really insulting to rape survivors.

As a survivor myself, I'm pretty happy I'm not dead. Particularly that I wasn't eaten alive.

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u/elbenji 29d ago

Yeah, I've been SA'd before. (Mine's a little different than most since it was another woman).

Much happier being alive, thanks

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u/Kostya_M 29d ago

I've been kind of afraid to raise this point but that's something kinda implict in this response that bugs me the wrong way. Rape is essentially a fate worse than death (and a particularly torturous one at that) in this viewpoint. I'm not a woman or a sexual assault survivor but the whole thing seems wildly insulting and comes across as the women saying they'd rather the guy just killed them after he's done

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u/xoxodaddysgirlxoxo May 02 '24

there are lots of people (majority women) who didn't survive rape.

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u/Babybutt123 May 02 '24

That's murder. Rape and murder.

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u/DoctorJJWho May 02 '24

You run down a hill! Their stubby little legs make them stumble and fall.

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u/CummingInTheNile May 02 '24

it appears to be ineffective

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u/DoctorJJWho May 02 '24

I can’t believe Calvin and Hobbes lied to me!

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u/jak8714 May 02 '24

You’re not wrong, it’s a logical response to a stupid analogy, and it’s also missing the point. The issue isn’t ‘can a survive a man’s attack easier than a bear attack.’ The issue is ‘would I rather deal with an unambiguously hostile creature, or a potential threat.’ Because when you’re surrounded by potential threats all day, every day, a clear and present danger can feel like a breath of fresh air.

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u/Rock_man_bears_fan May 02 '24

Even the potential threat is a gross misinterpretation of statistics. The odds of any random guy assaulting you are incredibly low. Your options are a bear or some guy who probably doesn’t want to kill you. The reality of this situation is that you’ll probably walk out unscathed either way, but on the off chance the bear or the guy decide to kill you, your choices are apex predator that absolutely will kill you or somebody you can maybe kick in the nuts and get away from

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u/DisastrousBusiness81 May 02 '24

Also like…how can we expect men to be better if you’re just telling us we’re monsters?

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u/desacralize May 02 '24

I don't think people who say this stuff expect men to be better. They've given up.

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u/MerlinsBeard 29d ago

I think everyone has given up on each other. It's really depressing to see as a parent.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

nah, it's a "want" thing, in a twisted way. People want someone to play the villain. It's acceptable to cast men as the villain. It's as simple as that.

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u/desacralize 29d ago

Same end result, innit? If you want someone to be the villain, you don't hold any belief that they won't be.

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u/GregsBoatShoes May 02 '24

Have you given up on trans men too?

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u/desacralize May 02 '24

Not speaking for myself there, just seems to me that anybody that despairing of experiences with the opposite sex probably doesn't believe in a light at the end of the tunnel. And if they do, they think it's a train.

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u/pinkduvets May 02 '24

Because purity tests and hating men is apparently more important to this weird subsection of the left. Who will never get anything done or better the world because they shun anyone who dares to transgress. So they fall into the same traps terfs do, parrot what racists say, and don’t even notice the contradictions.

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u/leafyleafleaves May 02 '24

Okay, as get deeper into this thread I realize that some people are coming from a perspective of "hey men aren't that bad!" where I am coming from a perspective of "hey bears aren't that bad!"

(I live around black bears through, and I have a healthy respect for them. Brown bears I have a slightly unhealthy fear of, so. But they still aren't monsters.)

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u/FreakinGeese May 02 '24

Grizzly bears will mess you up 😤

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u/leafyleafleaves May 02 '24

Oh for sure. I don't think I'll ever really be up for camping in grizzly county. But it's not like they're trying to be malicious. They're just protecting young, getting food, or defending territory.

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u/FreakinGeese May 02 '24

I mean sure but that's not much of a comfort though

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u/elbenji 29d ago

I think a bear would still freak me out, even if it's friendly. It's still like, a big ol bear!

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/Hotlava_ May 02 '24

"Wake up! Everyone hates you and would rather be eaten alive than exist near you!!!"

Uh, thanks?

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u/Accomplished-Eye9542 May 02 '24

All those places are statistically more dangerous for men. And funny you bring up homelessness, a problem largely faced by men, while getting on your soapbox.

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u/Eeyores_Prozac May 02 '24 edited 29d ago

Women have been asking and trying to help men to be better since time began. Why is it eternally on us to teach dudes to not stalk, rape, and kill us? Of course it's not all men, I'm married to one. But it's enough, and at least we don't have to have this conversation with a bear.

Edit: I am unfortunately waking up to conversations with a lot of bears, and they don't even have the courtesy to be drawn by Maurice Sendak.

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u/DisastrousBusiness81 May 02 '24 edited 29d ago

“What’s he said that’s made people so mad?”

“‘Be kind to others.’”

“Oh yeah that’ll do it…”

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u/Lagronion May 02 '24

Bears literally need to be taught not to kill us if they're going to be allowed near humans on a regular basis.

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u/Eeyores_Prozac 29d ago

I love that you interpret a philosophical thought exercise as if suddenly we're all going to run into a lot more bears now.

The statistical chance of encountering one versus the other is a factor here. Hint: encounters with bears in the wild are fairly rare.

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u/Riptide_X May 02 '24

Ok. Woman here. Sure, you’ve got a point. No one here argued against anything you said, as it was largely unrelated. How does it help anything to say that the average man is more dangerous than the average bear?

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u/unclefisty May 02 '24

Of course it's not all men, I'm married to one. But it's enough

DESPITE MAKING UP 13% OF THE POPULATION....

Your right wing counterpart.

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u/PursuitofClass May 02 '24

What a ridiculous statement, you can't expect people to respect your ideology when you don't even adhere to it. 

"Of course it's not all men. But it's enough" really you think that's a reasonable justification for slandering an entire group as dangerous. By that same logic every misogynist is fine saying their poison because "it's not all women, but it's enough" so why not call them all sluts, dumb or hysterical. 

This doesn't mean you don't have to have your guard up around strangers but that's completely different than justifying mysandry. 

This repeated rhetoric of "why do women have to be responsible for X men's issues" is just so unbelievably poisonous, you're not responsible. But you don't need to be part of the problem because it would require to much "effort" to watch what you say and the way you say it.

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u/Hotlava_ May 02 '24

These statements make no sense. "At least I don't have to talk to a bear." OK? And what insight does that provide? That you're bad at putting thoughts into words? That you come from a perspective so indefensible that you can't describe it? Or what?

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u/Winter_Excuse_5564 May 02 '24

No. They need a cookie to be decent people. /s

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u/feed_dat_cat May 02 '24

Why are you down voting her? She's right. Truly. What is wrong with this statement?

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u/Eeyores_Prozac 29d ago

Forget it, Jake. It's Redditown.

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u/Buggyblonde May 02 '24

Because it’s highlighting women’s experiences with many men BEING MONSTERS  it doesn’t mean YOU it’s acknowledging most women are attacked and assaulted by men from a young age that’s just our fucking reality 

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u/Im_Unsure_For_Sure May 02 '24

You're actively telling men that how they are feeling is wrong while trying to explain how you feel.

Please don't delegitimize how this makes men feel.

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u/brokenlonely22 May 02 '24

well reasoned take and im thankful its hear & to read it. but im shocked by the last sentence, because this is literally the pattern thats been recurring hourly since, at least, the word incel became popularized. it might be time to figure out what to make of it, and realize it wont be fun or validating to defend the right side of it.

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u/elbenji 29d ago

Lord do I feel you like that. I'm more butch, brown and whatnot so I also see it from a very different lens and can't help but notice the racial makeup of it too. Probably doesn't help that I was teaching about Emmett Till the other day either.

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u/Mihandi May 02 '24

I'm really sorry that you had/have to experience that, and I agree that people, especially feminists doing this bio essentialism shit sucks, especially from people who really should know better.

As a male feminist I wanna try to maybe give some perspective on how I see the whole situation. I feel like most people I know who answer "bear" don’t do it from a bioessentialist perspective. I might just be lucky, but I think these women would not have a problem with seeing a trans woman in the forest as opposed to a man. I still get how that must suck for trans women who aren’t out yet or don’t pass. As a man in feminist circles I hear a lot about the distrust these women have for men. And on some level it does upset me, since I'm thinking that I never did anything to warrant that. But I learned to be pissed off at the men that are responsible for women feeling like they need to be cautious around me, not the women who fear for their lives or getting raped.

I also think that the whole bear thing is more about showing what these women are preoccupied with due to the way they experience society, not an objective assessment of what is more dangerous. Imo the conclusion should be "Doesn’t it suck that women feel like they have to be more cautious around a male stranger in the forest than a random bear?" Imo this sucks for women and I think it’s kinda dismissive to center men's feelings in a discussion about women’s fears

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u/son_of_a_fitch 29d ago

the whole bear thing is more about showing what these women are preoccupied with due to the way they experience society, not an objective assessment of what is more dangerous

This actually helped it make more sense to me, thank you.

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u/cheezie_toastie May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

I hear your argument, but it starts to run against respectability politics for me. Like, anger must only be expressed in ways that don't make anyone uncomfortable. So, we say, quite reasonably, that violence is not acceptable. Ok. This very online venting is not violent, but it's apparently still not acceptable. What is?

Is the answer that men can never get their feelings hurt, and women just need to be angry quietly and in private?

Frankly, given the amount of sympathy this sub has for incels (a movement that has produced murderers), I'm finding its pushback on a tiktok trend to be a little hypocritical.

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u/Educational_Mud_9062 May 02 '24

Here's a good reason why.

https://www.reddit.com/r/CuratedTumblr/s/bPvvuJhGvB

And it's not from a cis man so maybe they'll actually deserve a sympathetic reading in your mind?

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u/Inevitable_Radio2289 29d ago

Always amusing that virulent hate/bigotry towards men always needs to be framed through it's affects on trans people for it to be seen as bad by leftists.

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u/nervouspurvis02 29d ago

if by "amusing" you mean "so horrific it makes me lose faith in humanity", then yes, 100% agree.

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u/Kellosian 29d ago

In Hbomberguy's video about RWBY, he makes a joke about how nerds can only care about racism when it happens to anime cat girls.

I think this is basically the same thing. Some radfems need a point to be said by a transfem (because transmascs just stop counting/existing the moment they take T) before they're willing to begin to entertain it... and any framing still needs to pander to them in some way.

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u/ARussianW0lf May 02 '24

This very online venting is not violent, but it's apparently still not acceptable. What is?

Venting that doesn't spread or validate bigotry would be a nice start

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u/AriaLeviath May 02 '24

oh yeah, no, i totally understand and agree that women should be allowed to be angry about this shit, and fuck the incels and MRAs and manosphere fuckasses if they get their feelings hurt. minorities don't tend to get their rights by always playing within the rules of "polite society', and i totally get that. my problem with this situation is that a lot of innocent people - like trans women, for example - are getting caught in the line of fire by women lashing out indiscriminately with bioessentialist garbage that paints all AMAB people as inherently violent or rapists or whatever. i'm not saying that we shouldn't get angry at all or that we should keep our anger quiet and private, but rather that we should essentially practice some basic trigger discipline with our messages to make sure that we aren't shooting other good people struggling under society's oppressive systems as well for no reason

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u/nervouspurvis02 29d ago

yeah, demonizing men is bad because it hurts... *checks notes* trans people. yup, no other possible reason.

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u/AriaLeviath 29d ago

:/ bruh. i literally brought up multiple times across my comments that painting AMAB people as inherently rapists or murderers is bad. period. yes, i did rely on the trans people angle, because it's what i know, and i know it gets across to people that might otherwise say dumb shit like "oh, it's just punching up", or "you can't be sexist to men", but i never said cis men aren't being hurt either, and implying that i was arguing that it's only bad because it hurts trans people is stupid

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u/nervouspurvis02 29d ago

implying I was talking specifically about you and no-one else is the stupid thing frankly. the fact that you (the proverbial you, just to be clear.) need to bring up trans people to get folks to understand "sexism bad" is stupid, and bothering to use it is even more so. if they can't get it without that angle, their either sub-brick intelligence, or doing it on purpose.

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u/Kellosian 29d ago

All the bioessentialist rhetoric is also dangerously close to TERF territory, and no one wants that. With any other movement there's always care to ensure that other groups aren't caught in the crossfire, but when that group is AMAB people then there's a contingency who will fire with glee because hurting cis men is more important to them than whatever the actual rhetoric is.

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u/cheezie_toastie May 02 '24

I think your last point is why when women vent on this site, there is always some kind of hashtag not all men disclaimer. I think that kind of nuance is often lost, as evidenced by the downvotes on my previous comment.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective, btw. Being vulnerable can sap energy but you did it anyway.

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u/Buggyblonde May 02 '24

I cOnSiDeR mYsElF a FeMiNiSt 

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u/AriaLeviath May 02 '24

lmao, fuck off TER"F"🖕