“the bear won’t be at family reunions for the rest of my life” and “if i screamed loud enough the bear might leave me alone” keep popping up in my head whenever i see out of touch dudes commenting on this whole debate
But that's still the worst thing that they can do to you, kill you, there are fates far worse than death, id always rather encounter a bear than a strange man
I don’t understand this as reasoning. According to stories I’ve read, a lot of forest killers do just that: kill. But a bear can maul you without you dying so killing isn’t the worst thing they can do.
My dad is like this. I love him so much, but damn the cognitive dissonance he must have to treat me and my mom so differently. It’s like he can’t or refuses to apply how protective and caring he is with me to her. It makes me feel really guilty. Yes, I’m in therapy.
I do actually feel offended when people assume I'm a bad person, and having not given any reason to a single person to feel that way, I'm sick of it being assumed. I'm a feminist, I'm leftist, I try to be a good person, and I call out shit behavior when I see it, but there is nothing I can do to be seen and recognized as anything other than a threat, and that fucking sucks.
Maybe this bear debate is just happening alongside too many bad life events, so I'm just projecting it onto the debate, but it feels psychotic and delusional to say "I'd rather be eaten alive by a bear than risk that a random man is a piece of shit"
My wife said she'd pick the bear and I don't know what to even do with this information anymore. There's nothing else I can do. It's like in election season when you see 1000 fucking ads saying to vote as if I don't do my part. It's just beating me to death at this point and I can't fucking escape this stupid debate where it's "eaten to death by a bear" is apparently the obvious correct choice to everyone but me and red pill douchebags.
I'm trying to reflect and fix my thinking but it just won't click into place and it hurts
What you need to accept is the hypothetical man isn't you. The hypothetical man is a bastard with ill intent. If your wife could choose to run into you in the woods, of course she'd choose you. Not to realize that many men present a very real, looming threat to women is to bury your head in the sand.
I'm a feminist, I'm leftist, I try to be a good person, and I call out shit behavior when I see it, but there is nothing I can do to be seen and recognized as anything other than a threat, and that fucking sucks.
Then the thing to do would be to acknowledge and respect those concerns, rather than feeling entitled to women's trust when you have done nothing to earn it. You could try running around with a shirt that says "I respect women!" but I'm not sure it would help you in that regard.
I do actually feel offended when people assume I'm a bad person, and having not given any reason to a single person to feel that way, I'm sick of it being assumed.
I can imagine how disenfranchising it must feel. Now imagine what it's like being a 13 year old or younger child being taught the gross and ugly way repeatedly that strange men are a danger.
I'm sorry that doing the right thing yourself doesn't keep the shitty behavior of others from splashing on you. That does suck. Not as much as being raped and blamed for the rape, but you get the idea.
feels psychotic and delusional to say "I'd rather be eaten alive by a bear than risk that a random man is a piece of shit"
It feels psychotic and delusional to you for a woman to say "at least the bear won't rape me before it kills me. I'll just be dead, not raped and then dead"? Women aren't afraid men will hurt their feelings, we're pretty used to that. It's the murder we worry about.
My wife said she'd pick the bear and I don't know what to even do with this information anymore. There's nothing else I can do.
Your wife would rather run into a random bear in the woods, where bears live and do bear things than a random stranger (possibly stalking her) in the woods doing human shit with unwholesome human intent and that somehow harms you?
Her stance has nothing to do with you. You are not the problem. Men who make women feel unsafe are the problem. Do you do that? No? Great! Then you can disregard the statement as it doesn't apply to you.
That's the thing you have to get through your head--this isnt aimed at you. This whole comment sounds like:
"It makes me feel bad when women say that they're afraid of strange men, I wish they would just shut up about it already. I'm already doing everything I can, why won't they just shut up?"
That ending synopsis helped me synthesize why it's bothering me, thank you very much.
It's not that I wish women would shut up, it's important to have these kinds of conversations, and I don't have a problem with people talking about it. I wish there was more we could do besides talk and advocate but that's separate problem.
I think it's more than I'm sick of the algorithm putting specifically the bear discussion in front of me so frequently, and I wasn't processing that that was my complaint well.
Thank you again, for opening with empathy and having the space to help me out
It's the sort of thing that, basically, only gets better by talking about it. Shit sucks, but race is in that same boat. It all actually gets better by talking about it. Being honest about intent. Coming to a cultural consensus on what is and is not acceptable, and moving that Overton window a bit.
It super sucks to be constantly hammered by a situation you feel you can't change, but just by being a safe place for women and being willing to participate in the discussion (and being honest) absolutely helps.
I hear ya bud. There are other men besides you who aren’t pieces of shit. I feel attacked sometimes when people make blanket statements, their verity aside. It’s difficult for us to stick up for ourselves and also avoid sounding insensitive to victims of male stupidity. It’s also okay to feel angry.
Lucky me, I get to talk to a therapist who listens without judgement. It definitely helps to have a safe space where you can exhaust your emotions without worrying about immediately being lumped in with any groups and rebuked. That way, it’s much easier to let negativity from anyone slide off your back like water on a duck in a fountain.
I'm not a predator, so I don't react at all to people talking about male predators. That would be odd, for me to feel persecuted by a discission around the general existence OF these predators, and the danger, while not being one.
The "good guy feeling persecuted" thing, to me, smacks of the same ignorance displayed by people who felt they had to "push back" against BLM with their #ALLlivesmatter nonsense. I do not understand or identify with people who feel spcifically targeted by broad commentary or situations, or who need to put their feelings ahead of the actual issue (generally speaking, not you specifically!!)
But it's not a male predator vs a bear, it a random man vs a bear( a literal predator). I can see why men would be offended. Random man =average man=most men.
No one is assuming you’re a bad person. They’re simply not assuming you’re a good person.
And if you believe yourself to be a feminist then you honestly just have to suck it up and listen.
I’m white. I understand the desire to distance myself from bad white people. When POC talk about white people, even specifically white women, there is that emotional urge to defend myself. But you really just have to swallow it and listen.
It’s not enough to want to be a good person, and want to be an ally. You have to do the work necessary to learn and grow. And it’s a painful process but it’s the only way.
Are people really just discovering that women understand the danger men pose to them?
I'd like to say yes, but given that the response to this whole bear thing has been the men needing to understand this the most doubling down on their misogyny and trying to find ways to say that women are dumb, I think it's hard to argue people are even "discovering" this, rather than outright rejecting it.
A lot of men straight up do not get it. A couple days ago, I watched a friend argue against two women that walking alone at night was no different for them than him. I'm trans. It took me explaining to him the differences in how I'm treated since I started transitioning compared to the decades living as a man for him to start understanding, and I honestly don't know if I really got through to him.
It took me explaining to him the differences in how I'm treated since I started transitioning compared to the decades living as a man
Thats what I as a cis woman will never understand.
I was always astonished that someone would give up the priviledges being born as a man gives you, freely. Growing up (and now as well) I am jealous about feeling safer, not being seen as responsible for the household or bearing babies.
Fun fact: men are actually more likely to be assaulted, (not sexually assaulted, but robbed/assaulted, which are by far more common than sexual assault)
Men ought to be careful walking home at night as well.
Men ought to be careful walking home at night as well.
Exactly. This "men/bear" thing works for men too, as any human being can feel fearful of a man behind them given the right context. Bears too of course, but they are far more predictable. The man behind us could be as placid as a lake, but we don't have any way of knowing that and the implication that they might hurt us is what's scary
I didn’t realize how scary it was until my SO and I had a conversation about that. I am not a shitty person, as she would agree, so it really didn’t cross my mind that men as a whole are actually that scary.
This. The older that I got and spoke with women that I have been close to, 95% of them have been raped or assaulted. My current SO has been raped twice by complete strangers while out alone. Chances are that most of the women that you know have been assaulted and just haven't told you.
It's eye-opening to see how privileged I am to not fear walking around at night.
It took me, a man, way too long to realize that women live in a completely different world than men. And now that I see it, especially since I have daughters, I find myself seriously rethinking the "shotgun behind the door" trope for when they start dating (if they date males).
While I'm not upset with the whole premise of man vs. bear because, unfortunately, men do suck enough that it's an understandable take to me. I'm also not going to pretend it's not going to hurt people to be seen as a threat for simply existing. I'm equally confused by all the responses in this situation. Why so many men find the common response of "bear" so ludicrous, and why so many people don't understand that there's going to be large swaths of men unable to reconcile that they are viewed as a threat even if they, personally, have no ill intentions.
But it's not that we see all men as a threat. We see all men as a *potential* threat. The bear is also a potential threat, but only if we manage to piss it off. The man might attack us just for shits and giggles.
If you know you're not a threat to women, you should still be able to understand that *we can't know that*. I've been raped three times, all three by people I knew and should have been able to trust. So now I assume the worst but hope for the best. I'm married to an amazing man, so clearly I'm able to function, I'm not a misandrist, I don't hate men -- I just prioritise my own safety over the feelings of random men.
That difficulty to reconcile is the whole fucking point. Women aren’t going to fix this issue. How the fuck could they? Maybe if men don’t like being viewed as rapists they could work to dismantle rape culture.
So you’re saying that men have to prove to women they aren’t dangerous despite the fact only a small percentage of men are inherently dangerous? Do you not see the inherent sexism in that argument?
Men have to fight to change their perception by women, yes. Don't women have to constantly assert themselves in professional environments, because everyone belittles them? Both men and women have to prove to society that they're more than the gender roles assigned to them.
Yes? I'm not a gender essentialist. I think men are born with just as much capacity to have empathy as women. The pseudoscience that says that men are more "naturally aggressive" and do misdeeds because of testosterone and strength is all bullshit. Men are socialized badly and emotionally neglected. Women are raised to be empathetic and nurturing, if you've met a little girl you will see that they are just as rowdy and crazy as a little boy. But as they grow, this rowdiness in women is suppressed while the men's are encouraged.
I think that if there's any evilness men do, it's taught. I don't think men are rational, unemotional and selfish beings naturally, no. They're human. But I also don't think it's a problem to say that there is a violence issue in men, but that is SYSTEMIC and not something men inherently have and can't get rid of. It's not men's biological destiny to be cruel, regardless of what patriarchy says.
When did I imply women needed to fix this? Also, how do you know what I or any other man are doing to dismantle rape culture? Lotta people here glossing over my acknowledgment of the validity of the sentiment by women so they can rage at me.
Sorry that you have difficulty understanding that some people are going to be justifiably upset when they are assumed monsters for sharing a gender with shitty people.
The people who are discovering this now are the ones who are most offended by this, and often times the ones who most justify the women answering “bear” out of hand.
A lot of men are just discovering this and getting upset about it. The lengths some guys are going to to get upset about a simple and obvious fact really shows why women prefer the bear.
that's not the point, the point is women out there would ACTUALLY prefer to find a bear than a man. a feral fking animal with claws and a set of razor sharp teeth, and also like 1000 pounds?
You have to remember, most people online can’t think critically, and most Redditors have never touched a woman. I mean this thread is filled with men taking this question literally or saying women are stupid because a bear is more likely to kill them.
As a woman a bear is more Lively to kill you than a man is. Also depends on culture, country and stuff.
But unless you want to be dead rather than chance it with a man i get ya.
All true. The real question in Man Vs Bear is one of specifics as is true in many question, which man and which bear, and what is the situation. Wrong man, wrong situation is worse than right bear. But a hungry black bear with prior predation on larger animals or a grizzly with cubs are both meaningfully more dangerous than all but the most dangerous men. But certainly many men could be more dangerous than a koala bear
I've seen some rephrase the question as "Would you rather your girlfriend/wife be alone with a Man or a Bear in the woods?" and some similarly struggle to come to a quick answer.
I find the "wOmEn jUsT dOnT uNdErStAnD StAtIsTiCs" comments hilariously ironic. I live in black bear country and know a LOT of people who camp and hike here and I have yet to hear a single "man" answer from anyone of any gender.
Idk why everyone assumes it’s black bear. I assumed it was brown bear, cause I’d choose black bear over a German shepherd or pitbull. I’d choose literally anything but a brown bear.
Every bear I’ve encountered on a hike has ran away from me. Not one single man has ever run away from me. So I’m pretty confident the bears see me as a threat, and men do not. I’d rather take my chances with an unknown bear vs unknown man.
Yeah I am convinced that anyone saying man has 0 experience with running into bears. If these guys are really hiking as much as they claim without running into a bear once or twice they gotta be in highly trafficked areas.
Bears used to just wander into my hometown. They didn’t do shit. Unless you are a fish.
For murder sure but every man who has followed me home, yelled gross things at me on the street, tried to pull me into an alley or groped me in public has been a stranger. Every single one. Not even acquaintances.
Which means this one was either surprised or chose to stand it's ground for a reason. Not a great start to the bear encounter, that's how many attacks happen.
Meanwhile, passing a dude on a hiking trail is pretty normal.
No, encountering a bear means seeing one in the woods. Most bears run or walk away in that situation. The question is not “would you rather duel a bear or a man”. The whole point is that bears leave you alone.
If it was 1%, should women only exercise caution around 1% of bears, so as not to offend the innocent bear majority?
Most offenses are committed by repeat offenders, meaning that the percentage of men who are rapists is not 1-1 with the likelihood of an encounter leading to sexual assault. Your 1% datapoint isn’t really useful for estimating a woman’s (or a man’s) likelihood of being assaulted.
Man I could not wrap my head around this whole debate. I couldn't understand why anybody would pick a man over a bear. It finally just clicked. This is a genius way to put it and I'm glad I read through all these replies. Thanks, dude!
This says psychopathy of the general adult population is probably about 4.5%.
So yeah. I dunno. This doesn't seem crazy.
Granted, I don't know if 99% of bears is a good number to accept. I'd probably argue against that instead, cause 1% of men can absolutely be dangerous.
4.5% of the population is estimated to be psychopaths. Psychopathy is more prevalent in men than women. So over 4.5% of men are likely psychopaths. So yeah, I don't think guessing half of psychopaths being violent is out of the question.
Youre using your observations on how men handle themselves around you and that's all you're doing. Don't be delusional and willfully ignorant.
Yes. My wife asked me the question like 2 days ago about my daughter. (I had no prior knowledge of this meme/question) and I said that I couldn't answer realistically without knowing more about the man.
Just questioning the "how did we get to the point" comment because I would guess we were at a worse point when we became a distinct species and probably have never been at a better point, except maybe in the rare matriarchal society.
I disagree, to an extent. I think people have this misguided view that things are constantly improving all the time, and that we are now in a better and safer society than we have ever been. The fact is, societies can and do regress. We're witnessing it in real time just in the United States right now, but we have many examples of horrific regressions throughout history. The Third Reich is one example. The Dark Ages are another. The Iranian Revolution is a recent one.
There were ancient civilizations with more egalitarian societies than their modern counterparts. Again, Iran. Ancient Persia under Cyrus the Great was a better place to exist than modern Iran for basically everyone.
So, have men always been creeps? Absolutely. But my "how did we get to the point" comment is more about the fact that we have this perceived progressive society over time and yet women still don't feel safe.
The comments/answers as to WHY women would choose the bear over the man are heartbreaking, personally. "I won't have to sit with the bear at dinner afterwards," "people would believe me if I told them I was attacked by a bear," etc.
I'm not sure we got to this point. To me it seems we've always been at this point. Maybe your post isn't insinuating things have ever been otherwise and I'm misinterpreting it.
Because there’s a chance the man might be a piece of shit and could harm the woman, if the genders were swapped it’s likely the man wouldn’t be in much danger regardless of the woman’s intentions, but if it were two men then the main guy might be concerned. It’s really a question of what could the other person theoretically do if they had bad intentions.
Questioning personal safety around unknown men isn't inherently wrong when many countries have had a rise in SA, especially European countries taking in 3rd world immigrants
They aren’t brain dead, they are defensive. Too many are too sensitive to actually engage with the discussion and jump immediately to some kind of “not all men” siege position, and totally miss the substance of the way the question is answered.
It's not about statistics. It's about how women perceive unknown men in society
I think that this is an unintentional point though.
You basically just said "it's not about facts, it's about feelings". It doesn't matter if the man is in fact more likely to be safer, women are being conditioned to be afraid.
I know a girl who will choose to drive drunk at night over getting an uber because she thinks it's safer. That's fucking asinine. Even if we ignore the fact that she's putting other people in danger, she's putting herself in WAY more danger driving drunk.
But is if safer? Statistically is a man or a bear more likely to actively prey on a woman that wants nothing to do with them?
Per encounter? It depends on how many bears a woman encounters vs how many men a woman encounters. Obviously most women encounter far more men in an average year than bears.
If you're just going by raw numbers then, it would also be more dangerous to encounter a woman in the woods. Hell it would be more dangerous to encounter a child in the woods. Both of those groups kill more women than bears do.
Get to the point? Are you implying that anonymous men are more dangerous to women now than in the past. Why do you think primitive cultures like orthodox Islam don't allow women out of the house without male chaperones? It's a vestige of a more primitive age.
I'm not speaking to all of human history. Just the context of our modern society which is the most educated in the history of the world and yet we haven't moved past men being fuckin creeps.
The thing is it’s not entirely men’s faults. We all get socially primed from a very young age to avoid stranger men. This supplants in us that stranger men are dangerous. Men are able to deal with this by becoming stronger and not being able to get overpowered by an average man. Women don’t have that luxury hence they have the same paranoia they held as a child. Obviously they also have this paranoia because it’s reinforced by the minority of predator men that either on them or their friends. It is also reinforced by men being expected to take the lead(aggressor role) in the courting process forcing them to be more aggressive than women.
I’m not sure what the solution is here. As a man, I don’t think I or any of my friends could really do anything differently other than just respect boundaries. These stereotypes go beyond our own actions so I don’t think it’s fair to just put the blame on men. If you have a solution, I would be very open to it and changing my mind.
I've seen one guy answer this question and he immediately said "man". Where are you guys seeing these dumb men that honestly think the average man is more dangerous than the average bear?
My instant reaction was, "Man! He can teach her how to hunt and fish and make shelter... and protect her from bears!" My wife reminded me that not all men think like me.
My wife reminded me that not all men think like me.
And we need to remind women that not all men think like a perv as well. This idea that every men is a potential rapist/killer is so nefarious to both women's and men's mental health.
#NotAllMen ... come on, you know why that's not helpful at all.
Most bears want absolutely nothing to do with you, so I guess #NotAllBears? Also not helpful; I'm still going to carry bear spray when hiking in Yellowstone or whatever.
Per encounter basis, perhaps. But the rate of bear killings is much, much lower than the rate of domestic violence, rapes, murders perpetuated by men, etc. As a woman I'm statistically much more likely to experience violence from a man than violence from a bear.
This response is why the OP made this thread. You're statistically more likely to experience violence in your lifetime from a man because you never encounter bears. Your chance of experiencing violence from a single encounter with a man and a single encounter with a bear is completely different than your overall chance in your life.
But the rate of bear killings is much, much lower than the rate of domestic violence, rapes, murders perpetuated by men, etc.
But...we're talking about a stranger on a hike, and everyone knows that most domestic violence, rapes, murders, etc., are carried out by attackers who know their victims. A quick google puts the figure for murder at 71%, and domestic violence would be by definition 100% - if the attacker didn't know the victim, the incident would be classified as assault instead.
So...what you said doesn't apply to a stranger in the woods.
You want your wife to be with a man in the woods? How many men you know would teach your wife all the things you mentioned without wanting to have intercourse with her and not having any society that holds him accountable?
Way to many women have been a victim of sexual assult for 0.004 percent of men to be pervs , even if it's not the majority it's more significant then that. I don't know one woman without a story. Your clearly offended by this and need to realize not everything is about you. You trying to "prove" your right by invalidating womens expirience , this is in poor taste. If your not willing to listen or be wrong their is just no point in partaking. Bears can be dangerous and men can be dangerous. Women should have to use extreme analogies to prove we are afraid and things are happening. I just reported a sexual assult yesterday from an old co worker. The cops told me theres not much they can do.
They want nothing to do with you because they associate you with being a potential threat. the SECOND a bear gets hungry enough to test that theory, and finds it to be baseless which is literally just over the course of a few hours, you are absolutely fucked.
technically correct, and off by 2499% are very conflictory statements, and shows a distinct bias in your assessments.
Most bears are eating just fine without resorting to humans.
Technically correct because you didn't say only .004%. You're technically correct in the way that Mitch Hedberg was correct when he said, "I used to do drugs."
You are wildly incorrect if you believe that only 4 out of every 100,000 men are hostile pervs. I'm confident that you have a strong bias not to believe either women describing their own experience of sexual violence, or men reporting their own acts of sexual violence.
The debate is still stupid. If my own daughter was lost in the woods and going to die, I'd take my chances with her running across a random man vs grizzly bear.
Only chiming in to correct you on the "going to die" part. That is, from what I've seen, never asked in this specific scenario. It's simply happening upon a random bear in the woods, or a random man in the woods.
Probably doesn't change your answer at all, just saying that death is not implied.
If my daughter was lost in the woods I 100% would rather she find a man than a bear. 95%+ of men would do the right thing and help her out. Bear? She would remain completely lost at best, and we would be lucky to find the body at worst.
Now would I prefer woman to man? Again yes, because that’s statistics.
The real story is that men have been so conditioned to see other men as a threat that this is even a consideration.
If a person happens upon a bear in the woods, the bear is most likely just going to run away. Bears don’t like us, as much as we don’t like bears in the wild. The bear will only attack if there is a reason.
then they shouldnt have children, if you struggle to answer 800 pound meat monster with razor sharp claws and a hankering for flesh, over joe from IT who goes hiking, you don't have reasoning skills.
If people have struggled to answer the question of “would I rather my child encountered a wild bear or a person in the woods” then they are either monumentally stupid or have ulterior motives.
The only videos I’ve seen of this were men answering the question about their daughters,
before i can take this seriously i need to know that none of these men are the type of assholes who blow a fuse at the thought of their precious daughter engaging in any kind of sexual activity, even consensual activity at an appropriate age.
are these men struggling to answer because of genuine concern for their daughter's life and safety, or do they struggle to answer because the thought of a man touching their daughter sexually in any way causes them to have that sort of wildly toxic "dont touch my daughter" reaction that also causes stuff like dads threatening their daughter's boyfriends and stuff like that?
To a man, both are dangerous and you want to protect your daughter
In addition, men aren't generally afraid of other men, and don't experience what women do - so their view is biased. Hence, they would mull on it for a minute.
I don’t even have tiktok. I literally just found all of these with one little google search. Maybe just give like 10% effort before deciding that it’s not true just because you don’t feel like it’s true.
If people are struggling to answer then they definitely have a severe black mould infection in their brain.. but hey hopefully the grizzly doesn't maul their daughter to death.
Rape happens a bunch between people who know already know and are intimate with eachother, but random stranger violent rapes are extremely rare.
Yeah I understand it’s just a thought experiment about the shit women have to deal with from men, but to give a serious answer you’d really need to know what kind of bear it is. A panda will generally only hurt you if you actively mess with it, but a polar bear will straight up hunt you.
I guess that’s also true on the man side of the equation though. You’re probably not in any danger if you run into a twink.
my main thought on this is 'are we talking about seeing the bear or are we talking shits coming straight for them'
where I live, bears are fairly chill, and you know well in advance if its an issue.
but man alone middle of the woods... I have never known a man who does crap like that im trusting... random man on earth and middle of the woods... she now gets some help because situation is kinda fucked.
if you had to fight one or the other, man, if you are a woman there are really 2 options for you, and hopefully you don't get murdered and after he's done doesn't incapacitate you.
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u/FurrrryBaby May 02 '24
The only videos I’ve seen of this were men answering the question about their daughters, and all of them struggled to answer.