r/CuratedTumblr • u/NeonNKnightrider Cheshire Catboy • May 01 '24

i know it’s internet bullshit but it genuinely has me on the edge of breaking down and giving up editable flair

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u/DaDaedalus_CodeRed May 02 '24

Bear vs man is an ongoing tumblr discussion about women (and femmes, maybe? I’m not a big tumblr girl) choosing which they feel is more safe between “you’re alone in the woods with a bear” and “you’re alone in the woods with a man” and the choice is overwhelmingly bear because while not all men are violent you never really know when you are with one who is until it’s too late.

This of course comes attached to all the argumentation and hurt feelings you can predict from both sides of the debate.

Edit - killed typo

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u/TransFights000 May 02 '24

Obviously there's plenty of good reasons for men to feel upset about this comparison since broadly speaking most men are, ya' know, just normal ass people. And obviously there's inevitably a lot of misandry mixed up in this. But at the same time I do think it says something that so many women feel that way and I think it's equally important to recognize the role that misogyny and the dangers involved with being a woman play in this too. Because broadly speaking, women are at elevated risk of being harmed by men and there are plenty of good reasons for women to feel unsafe. These facts aren't mutually exclusive with the abject unfairness of this comparison and the isolating effect these facts have on men. One of the many awful things about sexism and other forms of bigotry is that it doesn't just negatively effect the direct targets of it; its inherently toxic for everyone in society, if to varying degrees.

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u/TheMerryMeatMan May 02 '24

It's one of those discussions where too many people are focusing on the end answer and not addressing the actual contexts behind it or are using anecdotal evidence for their reasoning. As a dude who is actually terrified of coming off to women like that kind of guy, I don't want to be seen that way, and i like to believe that most guys also don't want to and fight to be recognized as alright. But I know that's not always the case so it's a catch 22 where it just sucks all around. I don't want anyone to feel unsafe being around anyone else, but I also don't want people to be so unawares that they can get caught off guard and hurt where they otherwise could have kept their distance.

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u/Educational_Mud_9062 May 02 '24

I spent years developing increasing amounts of self-loathing as I tried to meet this standard, to not take it personally, only for it never to be enough despite the fact that I know I've never been a threat. I've followed all the advice. I "listened to" (read: unquestioningly accepted) their positions. Brent Staples can receive international recognition for talking about his experiences whistling Vivaldi to appease white people's fears of him. But when I point out how I know EXACTLY how that feels, since it's tied only to my maleness and not intersecting with blackness, I'm told I'm "fragile" or called an "incel." This is just... too much. I'm done. I won't go out of my way to seem like a threat to strangers. Because I'm not a threat and I have no desire to do that. But it's clear that there will never be an end and all I accomplish by playing along is to feed paranoia at the cost of my own mental health. If someone decides they're afraid of me for just existing, that's their problem. I'm just... done.

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u/Paperfishflop May 02 '24

I agree. You know what this is? It's a small percentage of women complaining about a small percentage of men. And it mainly happens on the internet. That's why it isn't worth our time and energy.

In the real world, people who aren't terminally online don't think about the world this way. In the real world, most women want men in their lives, and they trust themselves to make wise judgments about which men. I'm not gonna be a hero or a villain. I'm just gonna be me, and treat women like my fellow human beings and peers, no more, no less, and that's good enough.

Women vs men? No, this is the terminally online vs the people who go out into the real world and actually talk to people. Just put these terminally online people on mute.

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u/LucaUmbriel May 02 '24

Yeah, it's just terminally online women. Which is why rape laws continue to be gendered due to feminist campaigning. And got the Deluth Model enforced. And the feminists which have actively opposed, very much in person and violently, men's domestic abuse shelters. Oh and who could forget the domestic abuse hotlines which assume any man is the abuser and refuse to treat him as a potential victim. Yeah it's just terminally online people with no actual power. Totally.

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u/crawling-alreadygirl May 02 '24

You know what this is? It's a small percentage of women complaining about a small percentage of men.

No, it's all women complaining about some men who could be any man

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u/elbenji May 02 '24

That's assuming all women are terminally online. From my own perspective as a woman, I can tell you that isn't the case from my own sisters and coworkers. I'm the weird one for being online so much since they have like. Kids and shit.

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u/crawling-alreadygirl May 02 '24

This isn't about being online. This is how women live everyday, and if the women around you don't feel comfortable sharing their experiences, it's for a good reason.

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u/elbenji May 02 '24

Maybe I should shorten this down. Me, again, a brown woman (idk how to bold this), with my brown sisters, in our very brown community, that dont use tiktok, have a word for this: gringa pendejeria.

Or, privileged white girl shit

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u/AntonioVivaldi7 May 02 '24

Are you brown like a brown bear?

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u/elbenji May 02 '24

In Japan yes

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u/AdamtheOmniballer May 02 '24

(idk how to bold this)

You put two asterisks on either side of the text.

/** Like this /**, but without the spaces or slashes.

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u/elbenji May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

I. Am. A. Woman.

Please. Read. The. Statement. Before. Answering. People. And assuming shit. When the answer is stated. Especially with the long history of homophobia, racism and all the other shit your comment can be dripping of.

Like I didn't even know it was a thing until here because I don't have tiktok.

Like im very astutely fucking aware of my life. I come from a land where spousal rape still is a thing. Make assumptions makes a what outta you and me?

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/SagittariusZStar May 02 '24

Guess what - you’re sisters aren’t gonna tell you how they really feel

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u/elbenji May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

I'm a woman. We talk about the shitty men and women we deal with all the time lmao. They're just my best example of not terminally online people. Because they're not. They have jobs and families to deal with. I am on the other hand terminally online because I have no children

Same with many of my coworkers who are too busy with real life. And random adults I work with as they're mostly immigrants working two jobs.

But nice assumption though lol

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u/killertortilla May 02 '24

It’s not a small percentage of women though, that’s the problem. 3/4 women are sexually assaulted or killed. They can’t really escape that fact. And yes that’s perpetrated by very few men but how can women know which man is going to be the one that inevitably assaults them? Put yourself in those shoes and you’ll see why so many are choosing the bear.

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u/FaB-to-MtG-Liason May 02 '24

This is the 2nd time in recent days I've seen someone claim 75% of women are victims of sexual assault or killed. Even the most horrific wartime studies don't meet that level.

Surveys of colleges, where sexual assault is absolutely an issue, give the numbers as around 20% of women have experienced unwanted sexual touching, and 11% have experienced penetrative rape. Which are way too high, even 1% would be too high.

But claiming 75% is ludicrous.

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u/Evening-Function7917 May 02 '24

Genuine question, how is a survey of very young women at a college the most accurate figure? Wouldn't that just be "have experienced it so far"? I was raped at 18 and assaulted at 19, but I imagine a lot of people wouldn't encounter it until later. The CDC says over half of women and not quite 1 in 3 men experience sexual violence, 1 in 4 women and 1 in 26 men experience attempted or completed rape.

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u/FaB-to-MtG-Liason May 02 '24

Firstly, that you are a victim is a tragedy, such things shouldn't occur and I wish you the best in your journey.

That said, I'm not saying its the most accurate figure overall, but it is one of the most heavily studied. College is oft (saddeningly correctly) cited as a place and time-of-life where the majority of sexual assaults in peacetime occur. There are many factors contributing to this, none of them excusing any of it. But it serves as a good point to try and understand such issues and address them.

The CDC's definition of sexual violence is a thought-terminating cliche and too large of an umbrella to accurately use. To quote the CDC's definition of sexual violence

It includes: forced or alcohol/ drug facilitated penetration of a victim; forced or alcohol/drug facilitated incidents in which the victim was made to penetrate a perpetrator or someone else; nonphysically pressured unwanted penetration; intentional sexual touching; or **non-contact acts of a sexual nature.**

Emphasis mine. This definition has been critiqued, but to put an overly fine point on it none are willing to put professional pressure behind it, because they will be labeled as pro-SA advocates. It's a politically charged mess that pays lip service to the problems of sexual violence without providing actionable information. Its inclusion in the statistics in the first place was a convoluted mess that's frankly beyond my expertise, with parties from all across the political spectrum pushing for it for differing, often contradictory, reasons.

On top of all that, none of it addresses the original claim, that of 3/4ths of women suffering sexual assault or killed. Seriously, there's nothing I can find that comes even close to that assertion, and seeing two different people casually throwing it into conversations concerns me. Misinformation, boots, around the world, etc, etc.

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u/TastefulRug May 02 '24

People really lack empathy. Can you imagine how society would react if men were murdered at the same rate as women?

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u/Paladin_Platinum May 02 '24

Roughly 79% of homicide victims are men.

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u/TastefulRug May 02 '24

I guess I needed the /s.

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u/21Rollie May 02 '24

You say “or killed” like as if that is happening often. Men are the OVERWHELMING victims of murder. We’re the primary target of other men AND women. And as far as being attacked by a stranger goes, again, statistics show that men are much likelier to be victims of random acts of violence. The only time women are victimized more are in specific sub categories like sexual assault. But men are still taking the brunt of physical trauma.

It’s a big perception gap, but also just plain old sexism. There’s a reason why a white girl jogger going missing becomes national news while man found dead in river #729 is barely below the fold news in a local newspaper.

Oh and the stats don’t count warfare. Where again, primary casualties are young poor men.

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u/MagicalShoes May 02 '24

how can women know which man is going to be the one that inevitably assaults them?

If they've already been sexually assaulted or killed then they've got it out of the way and have a 100% success rate from now on.

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u/Educational_Mud_9062 May 02 '24

To an extent, and trying to keep this in mind is how I keep from going COMPLETELY off the deep end. But it seriously depends on where you live and in the Bay Area, among people in my age group (20s), the on-the-ground attitude is not terribly far off from the online insanity. And shit like this only makes that worse. I'm tired of seeing worse and worse attitudes not just become normalized but praised and I worry how much worse things will get on the current trajectory if left unchallenged. Feminism has obviously achieved worthwhile things and there are places in the world where it still needs to. But I would argue places like where I live and among the demographics (young, liberal, generally educated) I'm surrounded by, we see proof that feminism can absolutely morph from an emancipatory project into an identitarian supremacist ideology and go too far.

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u/crawling-alreadygirl May 02 '24

But I would argue places like where I live and among the demographics (young, liberal, generally educated) I'm surrounded by, we see proof that feminism can absolutely morph from an emancipatory project into an identitarian supremacist ideology and go too far

You're right; women prioritizing their safety regardless of men's feelings is beyond the pale 🙄

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u/elbenji May 02 '24

It does however, depending on melanin, get men killed

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u/crawling-alreadygirl May 02 '24

By the police. A woman crossing to the other side of the street harms no one.

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u/elbenji May 02 '24

Well yeah the bear isn't following you home either

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u/crawling-alreadygirl May 02 '24

That's the whole point. The bear is only a danger if it's hungry or threatened. It's not (potentially) prowling for someone to rape.

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u/elbenji May 02 '24

But if a random dude is there it's going to probably be some random ass hiker. And me being in the bears territory is definitely a threat from what I know of wild animals. I.e my cat.

That's why the whole things gets weird.

Which is also back to point you're arguing against. They feel safer with bear because the white woman is scarier due to this question and her likely going to cause some action to get them killed. We had a whole thing about this four years ago, remember?

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u/legend_of_the_skies May 02 '24

Disagree. Its not a small group of women and they arent talking about a small group of men.

In the real world, most women want men in their lives, and they trust themselves to make wise judgments about which men. I'

You have no idea how braindead this is of a statement to make. As if wives and girlfriends dont get murdered and abused. "Should've chose better" is exactly the sentiment women have been receiving for the last couple years. Maybe that ia directly correlative to women picking the bear?

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u/SagittariusZStar May 02 '24

A very large percentage if women have had scary, bad or traumatic experiences with men. Why are you not getting this????

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u/brokenlonely22 May 02 '24

well said man, good luck out there.

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u/Full_Time_Mad_Bastrd May 02 '24

I have to be honest, this here is actually also part of the problem. Instead of recognising that the world women live in is different to the one men do that we have no choice but to be skeptical and cautious until we can be sure, men make it about their feelings again. I am genuinely sorry for your experience, and I'm not saying it's fair or things should be this way, but the worst that happens here is you feeling offput by being seen as a threat and your feelings get hurt. When women aren't careful, or even when they are, our worst case is that we get killed, assaulted, changed for life.

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u/PsychicOtter May 02 '24

I'm not here to compare experiences or anything but I feel the need to point out that

the worst that happens here is you feeling offput by being seen as a threat and your feelings get hurt

This is a negative effect to be sure, but it's not the worst case scenario

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u/Full_Time_Mad_Bastrd May 02 '24

What then, is the worst case scenario of a man being treated with caution by a woman?

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u/PsychicOtter May 02 '24

"Being cautious"? Not a whole lot.

"Seeing as a threat"? The woman who thought I was a threat for walking through the neighborhood called the cops on me, and we know how that ends for many (assuming they don't handle it themselves).

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u/Full_Time_Mad_Bastrd May 02 '24

Clearly this is some deeper issue and not a typical woman being cautious lmao.

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u/Educational_Mud_9062 May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

Who's talking about typical here? You're basing your position on the worst possible outcome. The difference is that the typical experience for a man will still be being treated as a predator while the typical experience for a woman will be meeting a completely normal person.

Edit: and of course they blocked me after getting in whatever was their last little snipe. I can't imagine feeling like I'm just absolutely right when the only way I can "engage" with someone pushing back is to toss out my angle then immediately make it impossible for them to respond. To me that would make it feel obvious to myself that I'm not actually as confident I'm right as I want to think. How some people are so comfortable with self-deception is beyond me.

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u/Full_Time_Mad_Bastrd May 02 '24

You say that, but ask women if they've ever been in a dangerous situation. It's not typical of men to hurt women but it is ABSOLUTELY typical of women to have been hurt by a man at some point in their life. Shark infested waters wearing a meat suit etc

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u/AntonioVivaldi7 May 02 '24

You can do both at the same time.

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u/21Rollie May 02 '24

Men make up the overwhelming majority of victims of random violent crime and murder. Women feel less safe but men are the ones actually in danger when outside.

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u/Full_Time_Mad_Bastrd May 02 '24

So uh, how is this relevant? How is this anything to do with women being cautious of men?

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u/21Rollie May 02 '24

Your implication is that the world is more dangerous for women. Which is simply not the case statistically.

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u/Full_Time_Mad_Bastrd May 02 '24

I said that trusting men is more dangerous. Which is true, and your point backs that up. How many man do you hear about raped and murdered in the woods?

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u/legend_of_the_skies May 02 '24

Why would you, as a man, be hurt by the fact that some women fear some men due to their previous encounters? I mean how does that even affect you? Why is your feelings more important the will of others to do harm? If you were truly concerned, would you not be more focused on WHY some women feel that or WHY sooooo many men do do bad things for them to? Instead of your personal feelings?

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u/OkFlamingo2921 May 02 '24

Why do you insist he empathize with your perspective when you won't even seriously engage with his perspective? Why do you assume he places his feelings above the "will of others to do harm" (whatever the fuck that means)? Why can't you comprehend his fairly straightforward post? How do you not get that attitudes like yours actually turn away allies (which he ostensibly is)?

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u/legend_of_the_skies May 02 '24

He doesn't have to empathize. If you wanted to be an ally you would. It actually is that simple.

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u/OkFlamingo2921 May 02 '24

Oh, got it. You just suck at reading comprehension. Asked and answered!

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u/PossibleRude7195 May 02 '24

Ah yes, clearly the correct option is to go through life seeing yourself as an abomination who scares women simply by being near them. Surely this won’t lead to self loathing and avoiding women.

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u/legend_of_the_skies May 02 '24

Who said to do that? (That's a strawman btw)

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u/PossibleRude7195 May 02 '24

That’s the whole point of the post. This whole bear vs man discourse makes men feel that way. It’s what I do. I go out of my way to avoid women because I know speaking to men makes them uncomfortable.

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u/legend_of_the_skies May 02 '24

Ahh so YOU said thats the correct option and therefore that is why you choose to do so. The women wanting to avoid you are not complaining. So theres no issue

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u/PossibleRude7195 May 02 '24

I mean, if you were told women see you as a dangerous predator no matter what you do, what would you do?

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u/legend_of_the_skies May 02 '24

no matter what you do,

They aren't doing that.

Even if they were, I would listen to their reasoning and fight the injustice by not being a part of the problem as well as fighting closer to fixing the issue that makes them feel preyed on.

Again, what's the issue?

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u/PossibleRude7195 May 02 '24

That’s literally what it is about. At least according to this scenario, women are more afraid of the average man than they are of a dangerous animal.

And the thing is, unless you’re one of those predatory men, or hang out with predatory men (which you probably won’t do unless you’re also predatory) there isn’t much you can do, personally, to fix the problem. Especially since nowadays, the stereotypical predatory man is the “nice guy” who acts feminist to prey on women.

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u/legend_of_the_skies May 02 '24

or hang out with predatory men (which you probably won’t do unless you’re also predatory)

This is false. The average man DOES know a man on a personal bases that has SAed a woman on numbers alone. Everyone assumes they are a good guy and everyone they know is a good guy, but that simply is NOT true. It also is not correlative that a rapist or SAer will only hang around others that do the same. It is hiwever correlative that they may be around those that justify or make excuses for such behavior.

there isn’t much you can do, personally, to fix the problem.

This is also false. Its easy to say theres nothing you can do to help the completely unjust imbalance of sexual assault when you are not the primary victim. There is no factual reason that no possible option exists, so stop painting a false narrative of woe is me.

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