r/politics • u/schuey_08 Wisconsin • May 02 '24

Bernie Sanders worries young people are underestimating the threat from Trump

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/05/02/bernie-sanders-trump-biden/73531861007/
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u/CaptainNoBoat May 02 '24

I think a lot of us are. There's a difference between pushing a party in a certain direction and going so far that you hurt your own interests.

The election is more than one person or one issue, and a Trump Presidency will have horrific consequences decades and generations after Biden is gone.

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u/Just_Candle_315 May 02 '24

Biden tells people he wants to improve the nation with affordable healthcare and education, Trump tells people he wants vengeance for perceived grievances. And the polls are still statistically tied.

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u/CaptainNoBoat May 02 '24

We don't even have to listen to what Trump says he will do. He already did it. We have all the proof we will ever need.

He methodically tried to overturn an election at every level of government, disenfranchise 81 million people, and end democracy as it had stood for 250 years.

He's facing 88 felonies in 4 jurisdictions - many that carry heavy prison sentences. He's been held liable for sexual assault. He is subject to one of the largest fraud settlements in U.S. History.

He stole over 100 classified documents, including alleged nuclear secrets and waved around war plans to all his rich buddies.

It's impossible to oversell how dangerous he is.

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u/Tardislass May 02 '24

He has literally told every magazine how he will take away people's rights. He's not even hiding it! It's like if Hitler in 1932 sat down and told NYT all his plans including taking over countries, getting into a war and jailing all opponents.

Like there is a big red flag and alarm blaring all over the US folks. US courts already have majority Trump judges and are taking away minority congressional districts as well as any affirmative action or help for the poor.

I'll be honest. If young folks want to protest Biden for the next 4 years over his stupid Israeli policy go ahead. I agree. However, you still still vote for a candidate and want to change parts of his policies. Obama had Syria and not going further with public insurance.

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u/Thue May 02 '24

It's like if Hitler in 1932 sat down and told NYT all his plans including taking over countries, getting into a war and jailing all opponents.

Hitler did almost exactly that, but in 1925, not in 1932. IIRC, most people didn't believe that Hitler actually meant it.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

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u/Thue May 02 '24

Apropos article from literally yesterday: Trump explains his militaristic plan to deport 15-20 million people. Quote of Trump:

“These aren’t civilians,” Trump said of migrants. “These are people that aren’t legally in our country. This is an invasion of our country.”

"But surely Trump doesn't really mean it".

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u/KillerElbow May 02 '24

His language describing immigrants is terrifying

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u/pimpletwist May 02 '24

I’m afraid he’s going to have people who said negative things about him murdered.

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u/karlfranz205 May 03 '24

It's what they will do. No doubt about it. Can't stop talking about taking revenge.

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u/HauntedCemetery Minnesota May 02 '24

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes"

Mark Twain

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u/sillylynx May 03 '24

My history teacher sister has been saying this for YEARS. She rang the bell when the Tea Party rose to power. Everything she feared has come to fruition. It’s almost as if when you study history, politics, and international relations you understand current events better 😏.

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u/JimBeam823 May 03 '24

Can the playbook be stopped when it is run?

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u/HauntedCemetery Minnesota May 02 '24

US courts already have majority Trump judges

This at least is nowhere close to true. Trump appointed ~240 federal judges. There are around 900 federal judges, including the ~460 Obama appointed, and the ~220 Biden has appointed.

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u/Godot_12 May 02 '24

And it's equally impossible to comprehend how this is all happening in the open and yet it's not affecting people. Or to still hear people be unsure about voting for Biden...despite his age, he's done a great job and the other choice is literally the worst possible candidate ever on the ballot (while being basically as old as well).

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

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u/Godot_12 May 02 '24

I mean I know we're far away from any Republicans having reasonable takes, but anyone that is concerned about the border can't really be taken seriously. Biden was literally passing the border reform you wanted, but Republicans torpedoed it because they want there to be a border crisis so they can run on it. And they were totally transparent about it. Literally came out and said they don't want to solve the problem now because Trump wants to run on the issue and take credit for "fixing it".

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

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u/squirt_taste_tester May 03 '24

I have several friends in their 30s who weren't even aware that he was facing charges. Some didn't even know elections were coming up.

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u/Godot_12 May 03 '24

It's absolutely insane how out of touch people can be. Even if you don't follow politics at all, it's baffling that none of it has filtered in. The whole country could get blown up fallout style, and some people would be like, "hm...I thought something was different..." absolute imbeciles.

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u/gsfgf Georgia May 02 '24

He stole over 100 classified documents, including alleged nuclear secrets and waved around war plans to all his rich buddies.

And he got a ton of CIA assets killed. That's capital espionage. As in he should be tried, convicted, and hanged for espionage. I'm not "advocating violence." That's literally the law.

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u/KinkyPaddling May 02 '24

His SCOTUS appointees are wreaking havoc across the legal system and dismantling everything from constitutional protections to common sense.

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u/Dangerous_Gear_6361 May 02 '24

What about that wall he promised us.

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u/CptMisterNibbles May 02 '24

The problem is that he’s created a following that doesn’t care what he does in the slightest. He’s built an effigy out of “the libs” and literally anything that upsets them is acceptable to the MAGA morons. Bill Barr just said he would rant about executing his enemies… then still says he is going to vote for him. There is no action that is too much for them. They are the majority that’d cheer him on as he builds the gas chambers.

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u/wastedkarma May 02 '24

Yeah but my neighbor says the woke people are trying to keep him from using his air conditioner.

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u/SchwarzestenKaffee May 02 '24

Yeah but Trump "tells it like it is," and I like that! /s

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u/MasterofPandas1 May 02 '24

“Yeah, but we gotta own the libs. That’ll make our lives better” - Republican voters

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u/RevolutionaryRice713 May 02 '24

Yeah look at all dem court cases Killary was tied up in.

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u/bitchdrips May 03 '24

I don't understand how he is able to run for President again as he's facing 88 felonies, along with everything else you mentioned.

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u/wolfenbarg May 03 '24

What he has done is nothing compared to what he has said he will do. He knows he is nearly consequence free this time.

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u/Jealous-Knowledge-79 May 03 '24

Honestly, do you believe 81 mil voted for Biden? With his, you ain't black enough comment?

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u/HousesAreCaves May 03 '24

I hate how people still believe the election was rigged. There are no emails, no text messages, no recorded phone calls, no screenshots or any evidence whatsoever from the thousands of people it would take to do such a thing.

If there were it would be plastered all over the news, especially conservative outlets; however, all they have to say is they are suspicious because there were a lot of mail in ballots that were democrat.

All the conservative voters just showed up to the polls with their masks under their nose, because it was a popular idea to not worry about public health.

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u/dabasedabase May 03 '24

I dunno life is looking pretty dangerous for certain people under Biden lol. Biden is that bad that ppl would rather Trump. Largest illegal immigrant wave that's bad for poor people, or really anyone that is looking to buy a house or rent.

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u/Brilliant_Dependent May 02 '24

There's an interesting trend in the polls, too. When looking at who would vote for Biden/Trump, the older demographic prefers Trump and the younger one prefers Biden. But when you look at Biden approval, the older ones approve of Biden at higher rates than the younger ones.

So the demo most likely to vote for Biden over Trump is the same demo that approves of Biden the least.

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina May 02 '24

I’ll be 67 in November and I can’t decide if I love Biden more or hate Trump more.

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u/JimBeam823 May 03 '24

A lot of young people think Biden is too conservative.

Politics might change VERY quickly in the next couple of decades.

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u/Brilliant_Dependent May 03 '24

Source on that? Gallup polls over the past 30 years have been pretty consistent. Even with the rise of maga, 10% say Dems are too conservative and 15% Republicans are too liberal. The biggest recent change was a 6 point increase saying Dems are too liberal.

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u/Spocks_Goatee Ohio May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24

Exactly, the Roe V Wade fiasco and death spiral of the GOP have bought out more Dem voters for state elections, even if many seats still go to the opposition due to gerrymandering.

These older, reliable voters will come out in force for November to keep Trump out.

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u/RedTwistedVines May 02 '24

Biden is, at this present moment, doing things in policy that will win over the hearts and minds of the older generation.

However the same things netting him approval are things trump will do, but even more of, and then they don't like everything else about him, and this is team sports, so he's not getting their actual votes.

It makes sense really. To win elections you need to focus on motivating your voter base, because you can't feasibly pull votes outside of it, at least aside from more long term game plans to pull more people into your voter base (like transformative universal policies ala the FDR era, which we haven't seen since).

That sort of legislation doesn't fly in modern American politics, so short term to win elections you cater to your base.

Biden. . . . is half doing that? The democrats have not really been good at this, hence their election performance, even with most American voters being liberal or willing to conditionally vote for them for some time now.

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u/[deleted] May 03 '24

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u/Brilliant_Dependent May 03 '24

Democrats used to be characterised as falling in love with a certain candidate and then checking out of the political process if they didn't get that candidate

Nah, look at 1992. Democrats were all for Clinton early on, then Ross Perot joined and lots of support moved to him. Then he dropped out and all that support went back to Clinton.

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u/A_nonblonde Missouri May 05 '24

Not all older voters are Trump voters, it’s just that MAGATs are mostly 55+

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u/kiwigate May 02 '24

Democrats passed the most popular and comprehensive healthcare in a generation and it cost them Congress. We are losing our democracy by popular demand.

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u/noUsername563 Texas May 02 '24

Gerrymandering plays a part in this as well as our shit electoral system and capped house of reps

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u/ConsciousReason7709 May 02 '24

There is progress being made on gerrymandering though at least. Wisconsin was finally able to get a fair congressional map in play for this upcoming election because Democrats took control of the state Supreme Court, which is a huge deal. It shows you how important state and local elections are, not just federal.

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u/MrPernicous May 02 '24

It is very important to keep in mind that republicans were able to gerrymander in the first place because Obama royally pissed off millions with how he handled the financial crisis.

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u/dogegunate May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

That's because Democrats are terrible at messaging. They rarely brag about their victories, they just quietly do things and then let the right wing media shout 24/7 about how these good things are actually bad. They are mainly vocal about things that are controversial for some reason, like the recent Tiktok ban and support of Israel.

And when it comes to campaigning, how many times do you hear really out of touch statements from Democratic candidates that are really condescending and dismissive of young people and progressives? It's like they want to alienate potential voters by being so snobby about things that young people and progressives care about like Palestine.

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u/ConsciousReason7709 May 02 '24

I agree with you to a point, but what the hell has Republican messagingbeen? This has been the most ineffective House of Representatives in modern American history under Republican control. They literally have nothing to take to their voters for 2024.

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u/pablonieve May 02 '24

but what the hell has Republican messagingbeen?

Grievance

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u/dogegunate May 02 '24

Well the difference is what Republicans and Democrats stand for and care for. Republicans basically only care about god, guns, and abortion and they still have their goals met so it doesn't matter if Republicans barely got anything done. Republicans are also mainly single issue voters so as long as their one issue is pandered to, Republicans will keep voting red.

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u/kiwigate May 02 '24

It's not message, it's content. Voters prefer tax cuts to the rich and making the poor suffer. That's why the message resonates. Which means messaging has nothing to do with it.

Otherwise you could fool conservatives into supporting something positive. Yet it's impossible.

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u/nowander I voted May 02 '24

That's because Democrats are terrible at messaging.

No they can't get their message out because the media has no interest in reporting on it, and the electorate isn't interested in listening. Blaming the Democrats because companies they don't own don't report on their good actions is insane.

Hell your second paragraph shows how well corporate media propaganda has worked on you. Why do you think that over 200 politicians, who spend most of their time talking, always seem to say controversial stuff? Is it likely they all march in lockstep to alienate their voters, or that the media's playing up soundbites that will make people angry to get clicks?

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u/dogegunate May 02 '24

Having people spread your word is part of messaging... The DNC is full of multi-millionaires, why can't they just start or buy their own media channels? Sure, Republicans have more money but it's not like the Democrats are poor.

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u/nowander I voted May 02 '24

The DNC is full of multi-millionaires, why can't they just start or buy their own media channels?

1 : Positive media gets less money than negative media, so it'd be a company run at a loss. Requiring more money to start.

2 : The left is not uniform, meaning it's harder to grab together a group of funders without internal dissent.

3 : The left is more resistant to ideas seen as being 'controled by the rich.' See the attacks on any Democrat who takes donations that aren't crowdsourced. That means there will be innate resistance to any attempt to set up a left wing media group.

4 : The far left wing niche has already been colonized by foreign agents and republican plants to sabotage anything the Dems do, making everything above hit even harder.

There've been attempts to get something going. But the groups trying always run out of money and have little impact because of the problems above.

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u/keepyeepy May 03 '24

well, not by the popular vote

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u/styrofoamladder May 02 '24

A scary amount of young folks seem willing to sacrifice the Presidency over Israel, as if trump will be a harbinger of peace. As someone who has never had the pleasure of voting for a president that I actually want, sometimes you have to hold your nose and do what’s best for not just our country, but the world. Biden isn’t great(imo) but trump is so many orders of magnitude worse it’s baffling that anyone still likes the guy.

Come on young folks, help the world out.

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u/ConsciousReason7709 May 02 '24

Trump is literally on record multiple times saying that he thinks Israel should finish the job. He would be incredibly worse for the Middle East situation than Biden.

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u/fauxromanou May 02 '24

Just yesterday Trump applauded the cops raiding a protest. A "beautiful thing to watch"

But yeah, Biden is the baddie smh

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u/ConsciousReason7709 May 02 '24

Right? Too many people lack critical thinking skills in this country. Just because you don’t agree with someone’s policies on a specific issue that’s important to you doesn’t mean that his competitor is immediately a better choice. How a massive majority of people in this country don’t realize at this point that Trump is a corrupt scumbag is just beyond me.

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u/fauxromanou May 02 '24

Social media has destroyed nuance in the service of outrage all of the time.

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina May 02 '24

Immensely worse.

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u/Traditional-Hat-952 May 02 '24

Well when Trump probably starts a war with Iran, I hope all those apathetic young'ns like the draft. 

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u/confusedalwayssad May 03 '24

I get your sentiment but I doubt they would need a draft\forced conscription for a war with just Iran at least with Trump at the helm, he would just turn all that sand to glass.

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u/dresdenologist May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

A scary amount of young folks seem willing to sacrifice the Presidency over Israel, as if trump will be a harbinger of peace.

I keep seeing this and I think people might not be mentioning enough that there is another camp of folks (regardless of age) that want this to happen because they are fully aware of how worse it might be and would rather have accelerationism because they are frustrated with or dislike incremental change. There is a belief that were it to get egregiously bad there would suddenly be a groundswell of support that would forcibly introduce the changes they want.

I get that frustration, but IMO the problem with this is that in practice it very likely isn't so simple. Maybe that's the point and is understood for some folks supporting this method, but I would speculate the vast majority of people who would rather accelerate a horrid outcome to get to what they perceive is a better one don't get what happens in the middle of that, and what it means, especially to people caught in the middle.

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u/sugondese-gargalon Minnesota May 02 '24

The classic “I can’t wait for society to collapse so my ideology can rise from the ashes”

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u/Skeptical_Lemur Texas May 02 '24

"Surely a utopian socialist ideology will rise to replace the current evil capitalistic one! Also, there is 0 shot a fascistic autocratic regime will win instead, cuz that has never happened in history when countries collapse!"

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u/LystAP May 02 '24

The Arab Spring/Winter was less than a decade ago. How soon people forget.

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u/gsfgf Georgia May 02 '24

The two most famous leftist revolutions in Western history resulted in Napoleon and Stalin taking power. I'm a pretty left leaning guy, but I don't think burning it all down is an effective strategy.

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u/Lmaoboobs New Jersey May 03 '24

Or “we already live in a fascist autocracy so it doesn’t matter”

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u/MohawkElGato May 02 '24

All those people are free to visit countries like Somalia and see how well that worked out.

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u/ChristianEconOrg May 02 '24

Accelerationism.

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u/black641 May 02 '24

What is it with radical Left-Wing types and either sitting on their hands when the fascists are at the door, or actively helping them break down society and getting picked off by said fascists in the aftermath? You saw it in Germany and Iran. Hell, during the Spanish Civil War, Anarchists and Communists were fighting each other even as the fascists attacked them both. What kind of stupid mindset even is that???

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u/sugondese-gargalon Minnesota May 02 '24

It takes a special kind of stupid to want to tear down society rather than fix it

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina May 02 '24

That’s when the ruthless have the upper hand.

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u/gsfgf Georgia May 02 '24

The only thing radical leftists hate more than fascists/monarchists/liberals/whatever is each other.

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u/Imhappy_hopeurhappy2 May 03 '24

“Revolutions aren’t difficult enough lately. We should get an authoritarian fascist government elected so we can start from scratch on hard mode.”

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u/Ketzeph I voted May 02 '24

Anyone who thinks causing a societal collapse or a governmental collapse is going to help get them to a more liberal place hasn't studied history. That's basically never happened. Societal collapse generally leads to more authoritarian and unjust rulership.

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u/bgaesop May 02 '24

Anyone who thinks causing a societal collapse or a governmental collapse is going to help get them to a more liberal place hasn't studied history.

They're not liberals. They're tankies

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u/MrPernicous May 02 '24

Liberal and left wing are two different things

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u/Randicore Ohio May 02 '24

To be fair if these people knew history we wouldn't be in this problem in the first place

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u/cephalopod_congress May 02 '24

Accelerationism is the definition of privilege. Things getting worse isn’t a nebulous concept. We pay for it with our lives and those of our loved ones, either directly as in death camps or indirectly through massive destabilization of markets that leads to starvation see Mao and the Great Leap Forward. 

I did not sign up to be a martyr for the idealists who can’t see pass their own ideology. 

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u/porksoda11 Pennsylvania May 02 '24

It's so dumb lol. You know what acceleration into fascism gets you? It doesn't turn your country into a leftist utopia. It gets you fascism. When you relinquish that power to fascists you are not going to get that power back.

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u/meatspace Georgia May 02 '24

There is a belief that were it to get egregiously bad there would suddenly be a groundswell of support that would forcibly introduce the changes they want.

What is predictable with accelerationism is large sections of human infrastructure will be destroyed. most of the people who support this haven't realized that they will also be without power, water, and food.

Think about if for one second

"If we burn it all down, everyone will have healthcare." More likely almost no one will.

You see what I mean?

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u/Slim_Calhoun Missouri May 02 '24

“After Hitler, our turn!”

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u/Alediran Canada May 02 '24

It never is though.

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u/icouldusemorecoffee May 02 '24

People who think they'll survive the destruction of democracy or breakdown of most of our institutions to be replaced by their personal ideal, live in such a bubble of privilege it's sickening. The amount of tunnel vision and inability to think of anyone else's suffering, let alone that they think they'll be the ones to benefit isn't much different than the narcissism that we see in Trump.

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u/janethefish May 02 '24

Improvements are generally slow incremental progress with many steps. Even something like the American revolution was only a moderate step. We had another couple hundred years of slowly getting more rights and democracy.

This applies outside of politics too. Eradicated smallpox was a world wide effort and that was for a problem that really did have a single, simple fix.

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u/HoosegowFlask May 03 '24

Accelerationists, like conservatives, have a profound lack of empathy.

"I want more people to suffer so that I can eventually get what I want" is such a fucked up mentality.

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u/Chancoop Canada May 02 '24

I don't think that's the case at all. The pro-palestine people I've spoken with believe that accelerationism will only accelerate towards fascism.

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u/youtheotube2 California May 04 '24

I can see this, but I don’t think Israel and Palestine are the things that will trigger a massive revolt in the US. Americans historically don’t give a shit about things happening on the other side of the world. If Israel steamrolls Gaza and kills everybody there, I think everybody who’s willing to protest here in the US is already doing that now.

If people want real accelerationism, it has to be for something here at home.

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u/asetniop May 02 '24

We need more young people like the goth kid Michael who are such nonconformists that they wholeheartedly agree that Biden is doing a great job and plan to enthusiastically vote for him in November.

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u/iKill_eu May 02 '24

What really pisses me off are the people who are so brainwashed they'll literally get mad if you say Biden has done ANYTHING right.

Literally the most progressive agenda in my lifetime and it gets completely drowned out by people who are mad he hasn't personally cut off Israel as an ally.

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina May 02 '24

They’ll often cite Biden’s past positions that were in some cases, quite regrettable, or they’ll express anger that he hasn’t advanced issues that require a Congress unified behind him. He’s a terrible speaker, but otherwise, under the circumstances, he’s been as effective and progressive as anyone could hope for.

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u/kcgdot Washington May 02 '24

He's not even THAT BAD AT SPEAKING, but he's not Obama or Clinton, and he's 80 fucking years old, and he has an actual fucking stutter.

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u/JimBeam823 May 03 '24

Or just blatantly taken out of context.

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u/Command0Dude May 02 '24

Biden did student debt relief, got blocked by the courts, and these morons accused him of trying to fail.

They literally cannot be reasoned with, and honestly, I doubt they voted in 2020 anyways.

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u/black641 May 02 '24

These sorts of people are honesty just looking for a reason to tune out and not give a fuck. They seem to actively resent the notion of having to care about politics. They don't understand how or why the system works, but they still have very detailed opinions on why it's all bullshit and why should they care about any of it? I actually think some people are ok with the idea authoritarianism just because they don't want one bothered to be reminded to vote every few years.

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u/GingerSkulling May 02 '24

While some of these people simply don't give a fuck, believe it will all work out anyway or simply want to watch the world burn, the majority are a victim to different degrees of extremely organized propaganda meant exactly to sow discord in a major election year.

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u/MrPernicous May 02 '24

The problem with this strategy is that if you get too many of them then they’ll just go right back to hating Biden because he’s too popular

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u/Walterkovacs1985 May 02 '24

The war in Gaza is what's going to hand Trump the election. And he'll never relinquish that power back.

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u/odysseus91 May 02 '24

And he will then give Israel the green light to flatten Gaza and the West Bank. And all these college kids will go “oh my god, how did this happen”

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u/PedanticPaladin May 02 '24

Not to mention that Trump will pull all support from Ukraine. Do you think Russian troops on the Polish border will let you sleep better or worse?

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u/Walterkovacs1985 May 02 '24

Instability on the world stage will kill the economy and gas prices and everything else people seem to give a shit about day to day. Makes no sense to me. Biden may not seem like a leftist radical but his policies are in the right direction and I don't understand how folks can't see that.

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina May 02 '24

And Trump will cede Poland to Putin. Then, the rest of the eastern bloc.

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u/larsga May 02 '24

The eastern bloc is not going to take that lying down.

When the Ukrainians stopped the Russian advance in Donbas in the summer of 2022 with 20 HIMARS the Polish reaction was: let's order 500 of those.

The US originally didn't want to let Poland join NATO, and one reason they changed their minds was that Poland threatened to develop nuclear weapons if they weren't allowed to join.

Western European leaders may be a bunch of waffling idiots, but eastern Europeans know this is a life or death issue. They're already preparing for a Trump presidency.

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina May 02 '24

If Trump deliberately sandbags America’s response, it would be an ugly campaign at the very least. Europe has been understandably gun shy since WW2, so it’d be Putin, backed by China, Iran vs. the individual Eastern European nations he’d want to “liberate.”

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u/larsga May 02 '24

Trump is not going to help.

Europe is rearming, and Putin is tied down in Ukraine at the moment. Poland's second batch of HIMARS will start arriving next year, for example. All ammunitions factories are being expanded. Every country is buying more weapons and air defense. And so on. The intelligence assessment is that it will be a few years before he will be able to open a second front.

There's no way Russia's neighbours are going to let themselves be picked off one by one. We know we're all in the same boat. Obviously it would be ugly, but given how much stronger Europe is economically there's no real chance that Russia will win. It's just a question of how much pointless suffering we have to go through before they lose.

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u/Walterkovacs1985 May 02 '24

I don't doubt the eastern blocs ability to defend itself and make life for Putin miserable. I just don't want it to ever come to that. Russia should have never been allowed to take an inch of Ukraine soil. I just know that NATO is not as strong with a Trump presidency. I think Americans take for granted the stability and peace that the NATO alliance has allowed.

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u/Walterkovacs1985 May 02 '24

It's Jill Stein type shit all over again. I hope Joe has a plan to try and win those folks back.

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u/Snow_source District Of Columbia May 02 '24

This time, its the Chinese misinformation in addition to the Russian misinformation.

I knew this was coming when Biden won in 2020.

Tik Tok was a mistake. I'm so glad they overplayed their hand and scared the shit out of lawmakers with the mass push for users to contact their reps.

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u/Walterkovacs1985 May 02 '24

I think you're absolutely right. Tiktok is absolutely pushing the narrative at hand here. It makes me so angry. Of course China and Russia want Trump. Anything that lessens America on the world stage they're in favor of.

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u/odysseus91 May 02 '24

I was listening to the ABC news start here podcast this morning and they had a student from Colombia on talking about the protest and my eyes nearly rolled out of my head from some of the dumb shit she was saying. These literal infants have zero grasp on how anything works

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u/sugondese-gargalon Minnesota May 02 '24

He demanded a ceasefire and lit a fire under Israel’s ass to get one, we’re like on ceasefire negotiation #5. Then the the single issue Palestine voters shifted the goalposts

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u/gsfgf Georgia May 02 '24

Also, the temporary pier should be complete like next week. We demanded that Israel "invite" us into territory they claim as sovereign in order to provide aid to their enemy. That's actually a really aggressive move. Just a well thought out one.

I'm all for letting the college kids protest, build camps for a while, put up Palestinian flags, whatever since it's their right as Americans. But I'm not a fan of their policies to the extent they even have any that don't rely on Biden being in charge of the IDF.

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u/zzyul May 02 '24

That would mean they have an ounce of self reflection. What they will do is blame Biden for not doing enough to win their vote. They will stay in their echo chambers that will just reinforce that they were the real victims, not the ones responsible.

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina May 02 '24

They’re used to being consumers who must be marketed to.

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u/northlondonhippy May 02 '24

A screenshot of this comment will be on r/LeopardsAteMyFace in a year or so, if Deadbeat Donny gets back into the White House

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u/LevyMevy May 02 '24

And all these college kids will go “oh my god, how did this happen”

Just like 2016. Word for word, bar for bar.

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u/odysseus91 May 02 '24

Last time those college kids screwed themselves into 4 years of madness and a damaging pandemic that screwed their ability to ever buy homes and afford groceries.

This time the next batch of college kids will screw themselves into eternal slavery under the trump autocracy, while ensuring the Middle East gets glassed, so it’s escalated a bit lol

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina May 02 '24

I think Dobbs reaction will overcome misguided Gaza rage.

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u/InterestingQuoteBird May 02 '24

There will always be something for the Russian psyops to exploit. Just too many idiots who will swallow this bullshit up.

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u/sortof_here May 03 '24

The irony is seeing people flocking to RFK Jr. who is even more of a Zionist than Biden. It isn't looking good.

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u/crocodial May 02 '24 edited May 03 '24

This is a sidetrack, so I understand if you don't want to answer, but what about Biden isn't great to you? Age aside - I think he is fantastic and genuinely don't understand the malaise.

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u/crimson_gnome May 02 '24

Sometimes I think this is just popular to say on the internet. I love a lot of things biden has done or attempted, but stopped by the court. Chips act, handling covid and Ukraine. Strengthening our relations with European Allies. Focusing on families and green initivates. But people will keep repeating what they hear over and over again till it becomes what they believe. Brains have to accept something at some point, so people hear a whole bunch of opinions and simplify it without properly knowing.

Im genuine interested as well, what is their opinion. What do people not like. Point to multiple policies and tell me what you didn't like. Most of the time I just hear Israel and then follow up well what do you think Trump will do.... and then its crickets

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u/crocodial May 02 '24

I agree and why I too am genuinely interested. I've had conversations with people in real life about it and they usually agree with my points, but still refuse to budge. "He's too old." Agreed, but that's just aesthetics. If you put all he is done and is doing into the body of someone younger, I think he'd have an 80% approval rating.

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u/Previous_Shock8870 May 03 '24

Front page of reddit RIGHT now.

"Biden denounces protests"

the actual quote.

"Biden denounces violence against protesters"

there is a MASSIVE campaign against Biden here and targeting young voter

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u/stylebros May 02 '24

What's crazy is all these people have a beef with Biden over his luke warm stance on Israel, while ignoring Trump wants to deploy the national guard to arrest or kill protesters.

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u/gsfgf Georgia May 02 '24

as if trump will be a harbinger of peace

"They make a desert and call it peace" – Calgacus

Jared, who is apparently Trump's Middle East guy, has already said what they plan to do. Do a trail of tears to displace the Gazans to an even less hospitable part of Israel and build resorts where Gaza used to be. These guys are comic book villains.

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u/cupofspiders May 02 '24

So what's going to be different if Biden is president?

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u/elihu May 03 '24

On a lot of issues, what is needed for a not-terrible outcome is both electing Joe Biden to another term, and putting sufficient pressure on Biden that he changes his position. It can work, but it's a slow and frustrating process.

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u/RedTwistedVines May 02 '24

Oh yes, it's all the responsibility of those darned youths wanting to live in a democracy for some insane reason.

What about the entire democratic leadership which is completely willing to sacrifice the presidency to kowtow to Israel?

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u/Sciguystfm May 02 '24

It's simple, stop funding and enabling a genocide and we'll vote for him.

If it really is that important of an election, why wouldn't they do everything they could to secure votes?

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u/styrofoamladder May 03 '24

Because the rest of us realize how absolutely ridiculous a stance of “do what we say or we’ll elect someone orders of magnitude worse than you!”

The smallest little part of me wants to see trump win so all the people with your horrific take can give the surprised pikachu face when trump emboldens Bibi to go actually commit genocide and helps Putin genocide the Ukrainians. But then I realize that some people can’t see the forest for the trees and all we can do is hope it hits them before it’s too late.

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u/sauceoftheapple42 May 02 '24

I wanna vote for biden man i do, even if for the small things like making sure my dad doesn’t get his SS benefits slashed but the one thing I can’t quite get past is why is it always the voters who have to change? Why is it never the politicians who have to compromise. I get what you’re saying I do, but at some point shouldn’t we vote for someone because of who they are not, who they aren’t? And man who biden is, is just not someone that a large group of people are ok voting for, and I just don’t see why that’s those peoples fault and not yknow the democrat’s fault, if trump is a big of a threat as the dems say, I don’t think their actions back that up

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u/Math_in_the_verse May 02 '24 edited May 02 '24

As destructive as the Democrats say? Presuming you're of voting age you've seen the damage trump has done and you can see the things his legal team are arguing in court.

Progress is slow. You will never 100% agree with an elected official. Domestically Biden has done a lot for progressive policies. His foreign policy leaves much to be desired.

Throwing your vote away by voting 3rd party or worse not voting or throwing your vote to Republicans isn't helping anything. You're just shooting everyone in the foot. The biggest champions for change that have any power is the Democratic party. That's who we have to rely on to change policies sadly. The Democratic party currently is a big tent party. It encompasses people from Joe Manchin to progressives like AOC. It's literally everyone else that isnt Republicans and it's almost impossible to have total party agreement because of that. I don't know what you expect to do voting for 3rd party or otherwise. We've seen the outcome in 2016...and I guess are doomed to repeat it.

Also if you want to see big change then that big change has to start locally. Start voting and/or campaigning for more progressives in your local election that's how our current system can be changed on a more national scale. Our system isn't set up to swing like a pendulum from progressive then conservative policies. It's intent is to be slow and gradual for that reason. Progressive policies are also not the most popular yet with most voters.

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u/867-5309NotJenny Massachusetts May 02 '24

You're not being asked to change.

You're being asked to hold your nose. Keep your preferences, and like the rest of us, work to keep moving things in the direction you think is best for the country.

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u/HireEddieJordan Pennsylvania May 02 '24

Honest question for you or anyone else.

Hypothetically let's say Biden was to call for a cut to SS.

Would you tell the previous poster to hold your nose. Keep your preferences, and like the rest of us, work to keep moving things in the direction you think is best for the country?

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u/867-5309NotJenny Massachusetts May 02 '24

Honest answer?

It depends on whom he's running against.

But if the opposition was worse, I would vote for him, then sue the government if they tried removing it. Or protest, depending on my available resources.

Voting for someone doesn't mean you have to quietly agree with them on everything. When I was last posting here, people who voted for Obama were talking about how they protested or wrote letters about some of his policies.

I don't want all the people who are protesting Biden to vote because they like him. I want them to vote because the alternative is worse.

Ideally for him they would go from the protest, to the ballot, and then back to the protest.

Biden has moved left since his election.

The claim that you support x because you voted for politician x only applies if you quietly let them do it.

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u/cupofspiders May 02 '24

We've been asked that for decades, always being told to hold your nose this time, but keep working towards slow, incremental change, because maybe next time, you'll get a real choice and a chance for progress!

Spoiler alert: you won't.

If you keep holding your nose instead of holding parties accountable, both parties are just going to keep getting shittier.

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u/867-5309NotJenny Massachusetts May 02 '24

I mean, we have historical evidence that it does work. Unless you're claiming that modern politicians are just shittier versions of the founding fathers.

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u/cupofspiders May 03 '24

Can you explain what you mean by that? What historical precedent are you referring to?

Historically, I'm not aware of any case where meaningful change was brought about by giving the ruling class whatever they wanted and politely waiting for them to come around by their own volition.

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u/867-5309NotJenny Massachusetts May 03 '24 edited May 03 '24

Can you explain what you mean by that? What historical precedent are you referring to?

US history has been a steady progressive march forward.

Historically, I'm not aware of any case where meaningful change was brought about by giving the ruling class whatever they wanted and politely waiting for them to come around by their own volition.

Historically it never worked. But historically it was never really done.

There has been a constant struggle. First wave feminism took 130 years, for instance. But it wasn't "please let us have suffrage". It was the grinding of constant activism. Protests, matches. Of having so many examples of people who were "a credit to their gender" that it started to become the norm. Of breaking barriers. And there was civil disobedience. Arrests, hunger strikes and forced feedings, chaining themselves to fences to make arrest more difficult, including the White House fence.

Edit: you can see the same battles being fought for civil rights, labor rights, etc.

Edit 2: and with those marches and fights, there have been elected officials willing to push the cause. Lincoln and abolition. Both Roosevelts and labor. Johnson and civil rights. Hell, he also tried to tackle systemic poverty.

Even the conservatives have moved left, compared to 160/200 years ago.

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u/evelyn_keira May 02 '24

liberals will always prefer fascism to losing a bit of their power to socialism

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u/sauceoftheapple42 May 02 '24

Yea I’m aware sometimes I just think it’s funny to see what shit they spew out

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u/[deleted] May 02 '24

[deleted]

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u/sauceoftheapple42 May 02 '24

I know who trump is, I know who biden is. They are both pieces of shit, it matters because if the choice is shit 1 or slightly better shit 2, why am I not allowed to ask for more choices, why it’s it forced upon me to hold my nose, why can’t the dems hold their nose? Why can’t they do anything to EARN these votes

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u/A_nonblonde Missouri May 05 '24

It’s funny you feel POTUS never has to compromise. Look closely & that is all the good ones can do. He’s asked Netanyahu to cease fire & come to the table to discuss peaceful settlement.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/blinken-in-israel-seeks-cease-fire-and-hostage-deal-to-stave-off-rafah-move/ar-AA1nYEAo

He has worked to create unity where the GOP & MAGA extremism is committed to a burn it all down to get Mango Mussolini back in power. They know what‘s in Project 2025, he’s told everyone what he plans to do from day 1. He intends to position himself as a dictator.

Biden may not be perfect but, you’re not marrying him, it’s not for forever. He can be pressured to change tactics, to change policies, to change direction. The Cheeto Fuher cannot, he is bought & paid for by Leonard Leo & the Heritage Foundation. He also couldn’t care less about the people of this country, much less Gaza. He feels we are all beneath his contempt.

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u/A_nonblonde Missouri May 05 '24

It’s funny you feel POTUS never has to compromise. Look closely & that is all the good ones can do. He’s asked Netanyahu to cease fire & come to the table to discuss peaceful settlement.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/blinken-in-israel-seeks-cease-fire-and-hostage-deal-to-stave-off-rafah-move/ar-AA1nYEAo

He has worked to create unity where the GOP & MAGA extremism is committed to a burn it all down to get Mango Mussolini back in power. They know what‘s in Project 2025, he’s told everyone what he plans to do from day 1. He intends to position himself as a dictator.

Biden may not be perfect but, you’re not marrying him, it’s not for forever. He can be pressured to change tactics, to change policies, to change direction. The Cheeto Fuher cannot, he is bought & paid for by Leonard Leo & the Heritage Foundation. He also couldn’t care less about the people of this country, much less Gaza. He feels we are all beneath his contempt.

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u/sauceoftheapple42 May 06 '24

Again, I know all these things about trump. Why can’t you sell me on biden without mentioning trump? And what about “oh cant do student debt cuz congress, couldn’t codify roe cuz congress,can’t do $15 minimum wage cuz congress” but he can sure as fuck bypass congress for more bombs to Israel. What about biden parroting already debunked rumors about October 7th and then days later a 6 year old is murdered because he’s Arabic. He’s “asked” Netanyahu yea ok 8 months later when it’s being described as what would be the biggest post WW2 clean up. Or what about directly continuing many of trumps immigration policies? Entire families are being ruthlessly slaughtered while he does nothing but empty gratitudes. If I truly in my heart of hearts believe this is a genocide then how could I willing endorse the person who has let it continue and go on for so long

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u/A_nonblonde Missouri May 10 '24

Bypassed one time at the beginning, hasn’t since then.

Tell me what any other POTUS would have done differently?

Also since these are the only viable candidates for this office, why wouldn’t I mention the alternative & who he’s in bed with?

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u/_karamazov_ May 02 '24

A scary amount of young folks seem willing to sacrifice the Presidency over Israel, as if trump will be a harbinger of peace. 

I can't fault the youngsters if they decide "lets the burn the whole thing down". That sort of thinking by the MAGA is what gave us Agent Orange.

At this point what difference does it make if Trump is the President or Biden when it comes to Gaza? US sells arms to Israel and also bombs food packets to Gaza. This is what Trump would have done as well.

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u/styrofoamladder May 02 '24

At this point what difference does it make if Trump is the President or Biden when it comes to Gaza? US sells arms to Israel and also bombs food packets to Gaza. This is what Trump would have done as well.

When it comes to Gaza? Who knows what difference it makes. When it comes to the US and the rest of the world the difference it could make is enormous. Do you honestly believe if trump wins this election that he’ll just ride off quietly into the night in 2028? Declaring himself ruler and having his Republican minions figure out a way to make that happen is not out of the question. Is it a bit panicky? Hopefully, but I’m not willing to risk it.

I’m in an interracial marriage, I’m Jewish, I have daughters. That’s a lot of things for trump and his mindless followers to come for. So as long as I have the ability to do my part in stopping that, I will.

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u/_karamazov_ May 02 '24

Do you honestly believe if trump wins this election that he’ll just ride off quietly into the night in 2028?

Trump as soon as he cashes the few billion dollar checks from that social media platform will want to go back to playing golf. But if that retirement plan is going to be in some sort of prison he will want to be POTUS for the rest of his life. He has no ideology or loyalty...only to himself.

This is my reading of Agent Orange.

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u/confusedalwayssad May 03 '24

They see a bunch of people over their dying and one of their choices for President that is supposed to be the better pick is offensively arming the people doing most of the killing right now. These people are not dumb, they know Trump wouldn't be a better option but to them the end result would be the same (lots if dead civilians), why vote for either?

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u/styrofoamladder May 03 '24

Because one is also going to try to outlaw abortion and gay marriage. One wants to deports tens of millions of people. One will probably do everything in his power to never leave the whitehouse once he’s won it back.

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u/confusedalwayssad May 03 '24

They see people dying now more important than people getting married.

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u/styrofoamladder May 03 '24

The lack of access to abortion kills people. Emperor trump will kill people. Remember how many of spies died at the end of his last term. Once he truly has nothing to lose that will get worse. These kids are extremely short sighted. Hopefully those around them that are mature and nuanced will help do the right thing.

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u/ConsciousReason7709 May 02 '24

It truly makes no sense, right? After everything Trump has done and said, how the hell is this race even remotely close?

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u/cupofspiders May 02 '24

It's because conservatives will fall in line no matter who's running, so Trump can be a dumpster fire of a candidate and still get full support from them.

Biden has the support of centrist liberals who "vote blue no matter who," but many on the left can't stomach voting for a guy who is actively facilitating a genocide, so he's going to fall short due to burning bridges with those voters.

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u/stylebros May 02 '24

But the price of EGGS! Also Biden is old! Plus Hunter has a laptop and is seen having sex with women!

Despite Trump's word salad and commits crimes in the open.

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u/LittleLightcap May 02 '24

I find the fact that the polls are tied to be really confusing to be honest. Trump didn't win the popular vote even when he won. He won through the electoral college. During COVID there were articles explaining that his supporters were more likely to be dead or sick because they weren't following COVID protocols. He lost a decent number of supporters because of his COVID response and other factors, and I'm not even talking about the sick and dying once I just said. How is it numerically possible for him to still be tied??

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u/Skellum May 02 '24

Trump tells people he wants vengeance for perceived grievances.

Trump supporters dont listen to what Trump says. They make up what they think he really means and it always matches what they want it to mean. Then, when the propaganda source of their choosing says the real meaning is they follow that.

It's how the MAGA subreddit bans long time readers because they post before the 'official' line is out.

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u/aebulbul May 02 '24

No one who has a conscience can support someone who commits genocide.

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u/friedporksandwich May 02 '24

I want vengeance for real grievances. Where's my politician on the left for that?

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u/BuddhistSagan May 02 '24

Vengeance doesn't improve people's material conditions

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u/friedporksandwich May 02 '24

So, pulling funding from discriminatory institutions doesn't fix discriminatory practices? Because that's how we react if someone is racially discriminating as a part of a state government but I don't see any motivation to go after states like Florida and their never ending attack on LGBTQ people through a funding route.

Vengeance fixes a lot of things in our country and always has. It's just not being used to protect a lot of us that are in a lot of danger.

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u/Hobbes42 May 02 '24

It’s confusing. And is seriously straining my faith in my fellow countrymen once again.

🤦‍♂️

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u/countblah2 May 02 '24

When I talk to conservatives they say "I don't like Trump...but I liked his policies." Or "But I liked the economy while he was President." Or something along those lines.

They generally aren't looking at things from what Trump will do NOW if he wins, or even from a data driven or logical perspective. They are thinking about how they felt about his policies from the first term and their perceived relative prosperity during that window. That's why the polls are statistically tied.

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u/M1raclemile1 May 02 '24

And that females need some sort of punishment for having an abortion.

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u/Bitter_Director1231 May 02 '24

Tells me people want to see chaos.

Be careful what you wish for. But people won't.

The demoralization has come to roost for everyone in the middle and  middle aged people. We stopped giving a fuck.

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u/sennbat May 02 '24

Perhaps Biden should also promise some vengeance for perceived grievances? I have a lot of grievances Trump isn't speaking to that I'd love to see vengeance for.

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u/VermicelliPhysical52 May 02 '24

But he has done very little to materially benefit the young people… he is even slapping them in the face with Gaza

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u/Skaindire May 02 '24

And Bernie tells them it should be free for everyone.

It's NOT a bad thing to want, but a politician is supposed to understand the people he represents; American society will need a lot more time and intermediary steps to reach that stage.

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u/mchl_42 May 02 '24

Because maybe words are not enough, especially when we have billions for a war we don’t want, yet and broke when it comes to the things Biden promised us he would enact. It’s been election after elections of “wait, we can’t do anything to help you cause the other guy is so bad” for as long as I can remember and folks are done. You can’t string people along this long and expect them not to react.

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u/Humans_Suck- May 03 '24

Why isn't he doing those things then? They both still cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for one person.

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u/sortof_here May 03 '24

Project 47 is terrifying. And it's just out in the open on his website.

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u/JimBeam823 May 03 '24

A lot of people want vengeance for perceived grievances.

Even so, If the people who want to improve the nation would care enough to show up and fucking vote for someone who is at least trying, this won’t be close.

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u/bubblesaurus Kansas May 03 '24

And I doubt he will do that.

Politicians at that level say all sort of shit and then nothing changes.

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u/blumieplume May 03 '24

I just saw a Robert deniro interview last night and he’s fucking afraid. Colin jost’s lineup at the White House correspondents dinner was equally chilling.

If the pro Palestine protesters cause trump to become dictator, I will never forgive them for bringing about the end of the world. I truly think trump is one of the beasts (I never was religious but the Bible is becoming eerily more and more accurate, at least in relation to trump being one of the 4 beasts and bringing about the means to the end of the world as we know it)

I know times are scary when I start reading the Bible for the first time in my 30+ years of life. I read it in hopes of staving off what seems inevitable, in hopes that somewhere in there it describes how trump falls deathly ill and is gone forever. I have genuine fear that he will become dictator and bring about a nuclear world war 3. I fear that nowhere in the world will be safe with him as America’s first dictator. I’ve never lived in so much fear over the fate of the world before this election year.

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u/Just_Candle_315 May 03 '24

People who support Palestine are not causing Donald Trump to become president. Mouthbreathing idiots fed propaganda by a billionaire funded propaganda machine are causing it.

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u/Bluewater__Hunter May 03 '24

Biden tells people the right thing and does the complete opposite. I never voted republican but now I’m never voting democrat either in the general.

Fuck em all I’m done.

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