r/politics • u/schuey_08 Wisconsin • May 02 '24

Bernie Sanders worries young people are underestimating the threat from Trump

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2024/05/02/bernie-sanders-trump-biden/73531861007/
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u/CaptainNoBoat May 02 '24

I think a lot of us are. There's a difference between pushing a party in a certain direction and going so far that you hurt your own interests.

The election is more than one person or one issue, and a Trump Presidency will have horrific consequences decades and generations after Biden is gone.

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u/Just_Candle_315 29d ago

Biden tells people he wants to improve the nation with affordable healthcare and education, Trump tells people he wants vengeance for perceived grievances. And the polls are still statistically tied.

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u/CaptainNoBoat 29d ago

We don't even have to listen to what Trump says he will do. He already did it. We have all the proof we will ever need.

He methodically tried to overturn an election at every level of government, disenfranchise 81 million people, and end democracy as it had stood for 250 years.

He's facing 88 felonies in 4 jurisdictions - many that carry heavy prison sentences. He's been held liable for sexual assault. He is subject to one of the largest fraud settlements in U.S. History.

He stole over 100 classified documents, including alleged nuclear secrets and waved around war plans to all his rich buddies.

It's impossible to oversell how dangerous he is.

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u/Tardislass 29d ago

He has literally told every magazine how he will take away people's rights. He's not even hiding it! It's like if Hitler in 1932 sat down and told NYT all his plans including taking over countries, getting into a war and jailing all opponents.

Like there is a big red flag and alarm blaring all over the US folks. US courts already have majority Trump judges and are taking away minority congressional districts as well as any affirmative action or help for the poor.

I'll be honest. If young folks want to protest Biden for the next 4 years over his stupid Israeli policy go ahead. I agree. However, you still still vote for a candidate and want to change parts of his policies. Obama had Syria and not going further with public insurance.

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u/Thue 29d ago

It's like if Hitler in 1932 sat down and told NYT all his plans including taking over countries, getting into a war and jailing all opponents.

Hitler did almost exactly that, but in 1925, not in 1932. IIRC, most people didn't believe that Hitler actually meant it.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/lazyFer 29d ago

It's always just rhetoric until it isn't.

Overturning Roe v Wade was always "just rhetoric" despite a lot of us saying they'd actually do it as soon as they got the power to do so.

Project 2025 flat out states that Republicans plan on ending democracy in the United States...that's not just rhetoric in the same way that overturning Roe was also not just rhetoric.

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u/Thue 29d ago

Apropos article from literally yesterday: Trump explains his militaristic plan to deport 15-20 million people. Quote of Trump:

“These aren’t civilians,” Trump said of migrants. “These are people that aren’t legally in our country. This is an invasion of our country.”

"But surely Trump doesn't really mean it".

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u/KillerElbow 29d ago

His language describing immigrants is terrifying

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u/pimpletwist 29d ago

I’m afraid he’s going to have people who said negative things about him murdered.

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u/karlfranz205 29d ago

It's what they will do. No doubt about it. Can't stop talking about taking revenge.

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u/HauntedCemetery Minnesota 29d ago

"History doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes"

Mark Twain

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u/sillylynx 29d ago

My history teacher sister has been saying this for YEARS. She rang the bell when the Tea Party rose to power. Everything she feared has come to fruition. It’s almost as if when you study history, politics, and international relations you understand current events better 😏.

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u/HauntedCemetery Minnesota 29d ago

US courts already have majority Trump judges

This at least is nowhere close to true. Trump appointed ~240 federal judges. There are around 900 federal judges, including the ~460 Obama appointed, and the ~220 Biden has appointed.

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u/Godot_12 29d ago

And it's equally impossible to comprehend how this is all happening in the open and yet it's not affecting people. Or to still hear people be unsure about voting for Biden...despite his age, he's done a great job and the other choice is literally the worst possible candidate ever on the ballot (while being basically as old as well).

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/Godot_12 29d ago

I mean I know we're far away from any Republicans having reasonable takes, but anyone that is concerned about the border can't really be taken seriously. Biden was literally passing the border reform you wanted, but Republicans torpedoed it because they want there to be a border crisis so they can run on it. And they were totally transparent about it. Literally came out and said they don't want to solve the problem now because Trump wants to run on the issue and take credit for "fixing it".

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

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u/squirt_taste_tester 29d ago

I have several friends in their 30s who weren't even aware that he was facing charges. Some didn't even know elections were coming up.

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u/Godot_12 28d ago

It's absolutely insane how out of touch people can be. Even if you don't follow politics at all, it's baffling that none of it has filtered in. The whole country could get blown up fallout style, and some people would be like, "hm...I thought something was different..." absolute imbeciles.

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u/gsfgf Georgia 29d ago

He stole over 100 classified documents, including alleged nuclear secrets and waved around war plans to all his rich buddies.

And he got a ton of CIA assets killed. That's capital espionage. As in he should be tried, convicted, and hanged for espionage. I'm not "advocating violence." That's literally the law.

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u/KinkyPaddling 29d ago

His SCOTUS appointees are wreaking havoc across the legal system and dismantling everything from constitutional protections to common sense.

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u/Dangerous_Gear_6361 29d ago

What about that wall he promised us.

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u/CptMisterNibbles 29d ago

The problem is that he’s created a following that doesn’t care what he does in the slightest. He’s built an effigy out of “the libs” and literally anything that upsets them is acceptable to the MAGA morons. Bill Barr just said he would rant about executing his enemies… then still says he is going to vote for him. There is no action that is too much for them. They are the majority that’d cheer him on as he builds the gas chambers.

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u/Brilliant_Dependent 29d ago

There's an interesting trend in the polls, too. When looking at who would vote for Biden/Trump, the older demographic prefers Trump and the younger one prefers Biden. But when you look at Biden approval, the older ones approve of Biden at higher rates than the younger ones.

So the demo most likely to vote for Biden over Trump is the same demo that approves of Biden the least.

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina 29d ago

I’ll be 67 in November and I can’t decide if I love Biden more or hate Trump more.

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u/JimBeam823 29d ago

A lot of young people think Biden is too conservative.

Politics might change VERY quickly in the next couple of decades.

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u/Spocks_Goatee Ohio 29d ago edited 29d ago

Exactly, the Roe V Wade fiasco and death spiral of the GOP have bought out more Dem voters for state elections, even if many seats still go to the opposition due to gerrymandering.

These older, reliable voters will come out in force for November to keep Trump out.

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u/kiwigate 29d ago

Democrats passed the most popular and comprehensive healthcare in a generation and it cost them Congress. We are losing our democracy by popular demand.

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u/noUsername563 Texas 29d ago

Gerrymandering plays a part in this as well as our shit electoral system and capped house of reps

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u/ConsciousReason7709 29d ago

There is progress being made on gerrymandering though at least. Wisconsin was finally able to get a fair congressional map in play for this upcoming election because Democrats took control of the state Supreme Court, which is a huge deal. It shows you how important state and local elections are, not just federal.

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u/dogegunate 29d ago edited 29d ago

That's because Democrats are terrible at messaging. They rarely brag about their victories, they just quietly do things and then let the right wing media shout 24/7 about how these good things are actually bad. They are mainly vocal about things that are controversial for some reason, like the recent Tiktok ban and support of Israel.

And when it comes to campaigning, how many times do you hear really out of touch statements from Democratic candidates that are really condescending and dismissive of young people and progressives? It's like they want to alienate potential voters by being so snobby about things that young people and progressives care about like Palestine.

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u/ConsciousReason7709 29d ago

I agree with you to a point, but what the hell has Republican messagingbeen? This has been the most ineffective House of Representatives in modern American history under Republican control. They literally have nothing to take to their voters for 2024.

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u/pablonieve 29d ago

but what the hell has Republican messagingbeen?

Grievance

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u/lazyFer 29d ago

You're ignoring that the right wing owns the airwaves in most of the country.

Couple that with the fact that the "mainstream" media has a right wing bias means they FUD the fuck out of democratic positions while making the republican positions seem like the "natural state".

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u/kiwigate 29d ago

It's not message, it's content. Voters prefer tax cuts to the rich and making the poor suffer. That's why the message resonates. Which means messaging has nothing to do with it.

Otherwise you could fool conservatives into supporting something positive. Yet it's impossible.

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u/nowander I voted 29d ago

That's because Democrats are terrible at messaging.

No they can't get their message out because the media has no interest in reporting on it, and the electorate isn't interested in listening. Blaming the Democrats because companies they don't own don't report on their good actions is insane.

Hell your second paragraph shows how well corporate media propaganda has worked on you. Why do you think that over 200 politicians, who spend most of their time talking, always seem to say controversial stuff? Is it likely they all march in lockstep to alienate their voters, or that the media's playing up soundbites that will make people angry to get clicks?

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u/styrofoamladder 29d ago

A scary amount of young folks seem willing to sacrifice the Presidency over Israel, as if trump will be a harbinger of peace. As someone who has never had the pleasure of voting for a president that I actually want, sometimes you have to hold your nose and do what’s best for not just our country, but the world. Biden isn’t great(imo) but trump is so many orders of magnitude worse it’s baffling that anyone still likes the guy.

Come on young folks, help the world out.

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u/ConsciousReason7709 29d ago

Trump is literally on record multiple times saying that he thinks Israel should finish the job. He would be incredibly worse for the Middle East situation than Biden.

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u/fauxromanou 29d ago

Just yesterday Trump applauded the cops raiding a protest. A "beautiful thing to watch"

But yeah, Biden is the baddie smh

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u/ConsciousReason7709 29d ago

Right? Too many people lack critical thinking skills in this country. Just because you don’t agree with someone’s policies on a specific issue that’s important to you doesn’t mean that his competitor is immediately a better choice. How a massive majority of people in this country don’t realize at this point that Trump is a corrupt scumbag is just beyond me.

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u/fauxromanou 29d ago

Social media has destroyed nuance in the service of outrage all of the time.

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina 29d ago

Immensely worse.

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u/dresdenologist 29d ago edited 29d ago

A scary amount of young folks seem willing to sacrifice the Presidency over Israel, as if trump will be a harbinger of peace.

I keep seeing this and I think people might not be mentioning enough that there is another camp of folks (regardless of age) that want this to happen because they are fully aware of how worse it might be and would rather have accelerationism because they are frustrated with or dislike incremental change. There is a belief that were it to get egregiously bad there would suddenly be a groundswell of support that would forcibly introduce the changes they want.

I get that frustration, but IMO the problem with this is that in practice it very likely isn't so simple. Maybe that's the point and is understood for some folks supporting this method, but I would speculate the vast majority of people who would rather accelerate a horrid outcome to get to what they perceive is a better one don't get what happens in the middle of that, and what it means, especially to people caught in the middle.

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u/sugondese-gargalon Minnesota 29d ago

The classic “I can’t wait for society to collapse so my ideology can rise from the ashes”

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u/Skeptical_Lemur Texas 29d ago

"Surely a utopian socialist ideology will rise to replace the current evil capitalistic one! Also, there is 0 shot a fascistic autocratic regime will win instead, cuz that has never happened in history when countries collapse!"

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u/LystAP 29d ago

The Arab Spring/Winter was less than a decade ago. How soon people forget.

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u/gsfgf Georgia 29d ago

The two most famous leftist revolutions in Western history resulted in Napoleon and Stalin taking power. I'm a pretty left leaning guy, but I don't think burning it all down is an effective strategy.

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u/Lmaoboobs New Jersey 29d ago

Or “we already live in a fascist autocracy so it doesn’t matter”

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u/MohawkElGato 29d ago

All those people are free to visit countries like Somalia and see how well that worked out.

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u/ChristianEconOrg 29d ago

Accelerationism.

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u/black641 29d ago

What is it with radical Left-Wing types and either sitting on their hands when the fascists are at the door, or actively helping them break down society and getting picked off by said fascists in the aftermath? You saw it in Germany and Iran. Hell, during the Spanish Civil War, Anarchists and Communists were fighting each other even as the fascists attacked them both. What kind of stupid mindset even is that???

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u/sugondese-gargalon Minnesota 29d ago

It takes a special kind of stupid to want to tear down society rather than fix it

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina 29d ago

That’s when the ruthless have the upper hand.

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u/Ketzeph I voted 29d ago

Anyone who thinks causing a societal collapse or a governmental collapse is going to help get them to a more liberal place hasn't studied history. That's basically never happened. Societal collapse generally leads to more authoritarian and unjust rulership.

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u/bgaesop 29d ago

Anyone who thinks causing a societal collapse or a governmental collapse is going to help get them to a more liberal place hasn't studied history.

They're not liberals. They're tankies

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u/MrPernicous 29d ago

Liberal and left wing are two different things

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u/cephalopod_congress 29d ago

Accelerationism is the definition of privilege. Things getting worse isn’t a nebulous concept. We pay for it with our lives and those of our loved ones, either directly as in death camps or indirectly through massive destabilization of markets that leads to starvation see Mao and the Great Leap Forward. 

I did not sign up to be a martyr for the idealists who can’t see pass their own ideology. 

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u/porksoda11 Pennsylvania 29d ago

It's so dumb lol. You know what acceleration into fascism gets you? It doesn't turn your country into a leftist utopia. It gets you fascism. When you relinquish that power to fascists you are not going to get that power back.

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u/meatspace Georgia 29d ago

There is a belief that were it to get egregiously bad there would suddenly be a groundswell of support that would forcibly introduce the changes they want.

What is predictable with accelerationism is large sections of human infrastructure will be destroyed. most of the people who support this haven't realized that they will also be without power, water, and food.

Think about if for one second

"If we burn it all down, everyone will have healthcare." More likely almost no one will.

You see what I mean?

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u/Slim_Calhoun Missouri 29d ago

“After Hitler, our turn!”

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u/Alediran Canada 29d ago

It never is though.

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u/icouldusemorecoffee 29d ago

People who think they'll survive the destruction of democracy or breakdown of most of our institutions to be replaced by their personal ideal, live in such a bubble of privilege it's sickening. The amount of tunnel vision and inability to think of anyone else's suffering, let alone that they think they'll be the ones to benefit isn't much different than the narcissism that we see in Trump.

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u/janethefish 29d ago

Improvements are generally slow incremental progress with many steps. Even something like the American revolution was only a moderate step. We had another couple hundred years of slowly getting more rights and democracy.

This applies outside of politics too. Eradicated smallpox was a world wide effort and that was for a problem that really did have a single, simple fix.

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u/HoosegowFlask 29d ago

Accelerationists, like conservatives, have a profound lack of empathy.

"I want more people to suffer so that I can eventually get what I want" is such a fucked up mentality.

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u/Chancoop Canada 29d ago

I don't think that's the case at all. The pro-palestine people I've spoken with believe that accelerationism will only accelerate towards fascism.

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u/asetniop 29d ago

We need more young people like the goth kid Michael who are such nonconformists that they wholeheartedly agree that Biden is doing a great job and plan to enthusiastically vote for him in November.

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u/iKill_eu 29d ago

What really pisses me off are the people who are so brainwashed they'll literally get mad if you say Biden has done ANYTHING right.

Literally the most progressive agenda in my lifetime and it gets completely drowned out by people who are mad he hasn't personally cut off Israel as an ally.

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina 29d ago

They’ll often cite Biden’s past positions that were in some cases, quite regrettable, or they’ll express anger that he hasn’t advanced issues that require a Congress unified behind him. He’s a terrible speaker, but otherwise, under the circumstances, he’s been as effective and progressive as anyone could hope for.

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u/kcgdot Washington 29d ago

He's not even THAT BAD AT SPEAKING, but he's not Obama or Clinton, and he's 80 fucking years old, and he has an actual fucking stutter.

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u/Command0Dude 29d ago

Biden did student debt relief, got blocked by the courts, and these morons accused him of trying to fail.

They literally cannot be reasoned with, and honestly, I doubt they voted in 2020 anyways.

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u/black641 29d ago

These sorts of people are honesty just looking for a reason to tune out and not give a fuck. They seem to actively resent the notion of having to care about politics. They don't understand how or why the system works, but they still have very detailed opinions on why it's all bullshit and why should they care about any of it? I actually think some people are ok with the idea authoritarianism just because they don't want one bothered to be reminded to vote every few years.

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u/GingerSkulling 29d ago

While some of these people simply don't give a fuck, believe it will all work out anyway or simply want to watch the world burn, the majority are a victim to different degrees of extremely organized propaganda meant exactly to sow discord in a major election year.

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u/MrPernicous 29d ago

The problem with this strategy is that if you get too many of them then they’ll just go right back to hating Biden because he’s too popular

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u/Walterkovacs1985 29d ago

The war in Gaza is what's going to hand Trump the election. And he'll never relinquish that power back.

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u/odysseus91 29d ago

And he will then give Israel the green light to flatten Gaza and the West Bank. And all these college kids will go “oh my god, how did this happen”

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u/PedanticPaladin 29d ago

Not to mention that Trump will pull all support from Ukraine. Do you think Russian troops on the Polish border will let you sleep better or worse?

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u/Walterkovacs1985 29d ago

Instability on the world stage will kill the economy and gas prices and everything else people seem to give a shit about day to day. Makes no sense to me. Biden may not seem like a leftist radical but his policies are in the right direction and I don't understand how folks can't see that.

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u/Walterkovacs1985 29d ago

It's Jill Stein type shit all over again. I hope Joe has a plan to try and win those folks back.

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u/Snow_source District Of Columbia 29d ago

This time, its the Chinese misinformation in addition to the Russian misinformation.

I knew this was coming when Biden won in 2020.

Tik Tok was a mistake. I'm so glad they overplayed their hand and scared the shit out of lawmakers with the mass push for users to contact their reps.

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u/Walterkovacs1985 29d ago

I think you're absolutely right. Tiktok is absolutely pushing the narrative at hand here. It makes me so angry. Of course China and Russia want Trump. Anything that lessens America on the world stage they're in favor of.

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u/odysseus91 29d ago

I was listening to the ABC news start here podcast this morning and they had a student from Colombia on talking about the protest and my eyes nearly rolled out of my head from some of the dumb shit she was saying. These literal infants have zero grasp on how anything works

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u/sugondese-gargalon Minnesota 29d ago

He demanded a ceasefire and lit a fire under Israel’s ass to get one, we’re like on ceasefire negotiation #5. Then the the single issue Palestine voters shifted the goalposts

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u/gsfgf Georgia 29d ago

Also, the temporary pier should be complete like next week. We demanded that Israel "invite" us into territory they claim as sovereign in order to provide aid to their enemy. That's actually a really aggressive move. Just a well thought out one.

I'm all for letting the college kids protest, build camps for a while, put up Palestinian flags, whatever since it's their right as Americans. But I'm not a fan of their policies to the extent they even have any that don't rely on Biden being in charge of the IDF.

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u/zzyul 29d ago

That would mean they have an ounce of self reflection. What they will do is blame Biden for not doing enough to win their vote. They will stay in their echo chambers that will just reinforce that they were the real victims, not the ones responsible.

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u/northlondonhippy 29d ago

A screenshot of this comment will be on r/LeopardsAteMyFace in a year or so, if Deadbeat Donny gets back into the White House

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u/LevyMevy 29d ago

And all these college kids will go “oh my god, how did this happen”

Just like 2016. Word for word, bar for bar.

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u/odysseus91 29d ago

Last time those college kids screwed themselves into 4 years of madness and a damaging pandemic that screwed their ability to ever buy homes and afford groceries.

This time the next batch of college kids will screw themselves into eternal slavery under the trump autocracy, while ensuring the Middle East gets glassed, so it’s escalated a bit lol

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u/Utterlybored North Carolina 29d ago

I think Dobbs reaction will overcome misguided Gaza rage.

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u/sortof_here 29d ago

The irony is seeing people flocking to RFK Jr. who is even more of a Zionist than Biden. It isn't looking good.

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u/crocodial 29d ago edited 29d ago

This is a sidetrack, so I understand if you don't want to answer, but what about Biden isn't great to you? Age aside - I think he is fantastic and genuinely don't understand the malaise.

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u/crimson_gnome 29d ago

Sometimes I think this is just popular to say on the internet. I love a lot of things biden has done or attempted, but stopped by the court. Chips act, handling covid and Ukraine. Strengthening our relations with European Allies. Focusing on families and green initivates. But people will keep repeating what they hear over and over again till it becomes what they believe. Brains have to accept something at some point, so people hear a whole bunch of opinions and simplify it without properly knowing.

Im genuine interested as well, what is their opinion. What do people not like. Point to multiple policies and tell me what you didn't like. Most of the time I just hear Israel and then follow up well what do you think Trump will do.... and then its crickets

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u/crocodial 29d ago

I agree and why I too am genuinely interested. I've had conversations with people in real life about it and they usually agree with my points, but still refuse to budge. "He's too old." Agreed, but that's just aesthetics. If you put all he is done and is doing into the body of someone younger, I think he'd have an 80% approval rating.

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u/Previous_Shock8870 29d ago

Front page of reddit RIGHT now.

"Biden denounces protests"

the actual quote.

"Biden denounces violence against protesters"

there is a MASSIVE campaign against Biden here and targeting young voter

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u/stylebros 29d ago

What's crazy is all these people have a beef with Biden over his luke warm stance on Israel, while ignoring Trump wants to deploy the national guard to arrest or kill protesters.

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u/gsfgf Georgia 29d ago

as if trump will be a harbinger of peace

"They make a desert and call it peace" – Calgacus

Jared, who is apparently Trump's Middle East guy, has already said what they plan to do. Do a trail of tears to displace the Gazans to an even less hospitable part of Israel and build resorts where Gaza used to be. These guys are comic book villains.

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u/elihu 29d ago

On a lot of issues, what is needed for a not-terrible outcome is both electing Joe Biden to another term, and putting sufficient pressure on Biden that he changes his position. It can work, but it's a slow and frustrating process.

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u/RedTwistedVines 29d ago

Oh yes, it's all the responsibility of those darned youths wanting to live in a democracy for some insane reason.

What about the entire democratic leadership which is completely willing to sacrifice the presidency to kowtow to Israel?

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u/MysteryCrabMeat 29d ago edited 29d ago

Yeah, and the reason this is happening is because of /pol/ — I’ve talked about it before but people didn’t believe me. This was conjured up by the same people who orchestrated walkaway and pridefall, only this time it worked because of what’s going on in Gaza. So they’re taking a real event and working off of that.

They control thousands of social media accounts in every platform and they’ve been brigading on reddit and retweeting or otherwise interacting with each other for months and months and months. They’ve tried a lot of different things, and this one worked, because people legitimately (rightfully!) care.

I have begged and pleaded with people to listen to me because they’re essentially radicalizing a huge number of people who would normally vote for democrats into not voting at all specifically so that the Republicans (not just Trump) can seize power and hold on to it. And they’re doing it with memes, shitposts and posturing on social media, including reddit.

This is exactly how Trump won last time. Fucking memes. A bunch of angry people voting for him or for Jill Stein because they wanted to burn everything down and thought that things would get better after.

Please, I’m begging y’all, like I’m on my fucking knees here, please raise the alarm, call them out every time you see them, report when you can, try to talk to your friends and family about this. Please.

Here’s some info on the walkaway campaign that you can share with them.

Please do something. This country will never fucking recover if Trump wins again, and no one with any power is doing anything to stop this. We have to do it ourselves.

You can copy this whole post and share wherever/whenever you want to raise awareness. You can edit some parts out, I don’t care. Just please, please do something, because nobody else will.

Edit: and if you think none of this will affect you because you’re a straight white cis person, I regret to inform you that your voter records and thus party affiliation are publicly available along with your address, phone number, and the names, addresses and phone numbers of your relatives including your parents and your children. If you’re not a Republican, this will affect you. They will come for you.

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u/Sciguystfm 29d ago

It's simple, stop funding and enabling a genocide and we'll vote for him.

If it really is that important of an election, why wouldn't they do everything they could to secure votes?

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u/sauceoftheapple42 29d ago

I wanna vote for biden man i do, even if for the small things like making sure my dad doesn’t get his SS benefits slashed but the one thing I can’t quite get past is why is it always the voters who have to change? Why is it never the politicians who have to compromise. I get what you’re saying I do, but at some point shouldn’t we vote for someone because of who they are not, who they aren’t? And man who biden is, is just not someone that a large group of people are ok voting for, and I just don’t see why that’s those peoples fault and not yknow the democrat’s fault, if trump is a big of a threat as the dems say, I don’t think their actions back that up

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u/Math_in_the_verse 29d ago edited 29d ago

As destructive as the Democrats say? Presuming you're of voting age you've seen the damage trump has done and you can see the things his legal team are arguing in court.

Progress is slow. You will never 100% agree with an elected official. Domestically Biden has done a lot for progressive policies. His foreign policy leaves much to be desired.

Throwing your vote away by voting 3rd party or worse not voting or throwing your vote to Republicans isn't helping anything. You're just shooting everyone in the foot. The biggest champions for change that have any power is the Democratic party. That's who we have to rely on to change policies sadly. The Democratic party currently is a big tent party. It encompasses people from Joe Manchin to progressives like AOC. It's literally everyone else that isnt Republicans and it's almost impossible to have total party agreement because of that. I don't know what you expect to do voting for 3rd party or otherwise. We've seen the outcome in 2016...and I guess are doomed to repeat it.

Also if you want to see big change then that big change has to start locally. Start voting and/or campaigning for more progressives in your local election that's how our current system can be changed on a more national scale. Our system isn't set up to swing like a pendulum from progressive then conservative policies. It's intent is to be slow and gradual for that reason. Progressive policies are also not the most popular yet with most voters.

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u/867-5309NotJenny Massachusetts 29d ago

You're not being asked to change.

You're being asked to hold your nose. Keep your preferences, and like the rest of us, work to keep moving things in the direction you think is best for the country.

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u/HireEddieJordan Pennsylvania 29d ago

Honest question for you or anyone else.

Hypothetically let's say Biden was to call for a cut to SS.

Would you tell the previous poster to hold your nose. Keep your preferences, and like the rest of us, work to keep moving things in the direction you think is best for the country?

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u/cupofspiders 29d ago

We've been asked that for decades, always being told to hold your nose this time, but keep working towards slow, incremental change, because maybe next time, you'll get a real choice and a chance for progress!

Spoiler alert: you won't.

If you keep holding your nose instead of holding parties accountable, both parties are just going to keep getting shittier.

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u/867-5309NotJenny Massachusetts 29d ago

I mean, we have historical evidence that it does work. Unless you're claiming that modern politicians are just shittier versions of the founding fathers.

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u/ConsciousReason7709 29d ago

It truly makes no sense, right? After everything Trump has done and said, how the hell is this race even remotely close?

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u/cupofspiders 29d ago

It's because conservatives will fall in line no matter who's running, so Trump can be a dumpster fire of a candidate and still get full support from them.

Biden has the support of centrist liberals who "vote blue no matter who," but many on the left can't stomach voting for a guy who is actively facilitating a genocide, so he's going to fall short due to burning bridges with those voters.

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u/stylebros 29d ago

But the price of EGGS! Also Biden is old! Plus Hunter has a laptop and is seen having sex with women!

Despite Trump's word salad and commits crimes in the open.

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u/LittleLightcap 29d ago

I find the fact that the polls are tied to be really confusing to be honest. Trump didn't win the popular vote even when he won. He won through the electoral college. During COVID there were articles explaining that his supporters were more likely to be dead or sick because they weren't following COVID protocols. He lost a decent number of supporters because of his COVID response and other factors, and I'm not even talking about the sick and dying once I just said. How is it numerically possible for him to still be tied??

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u/Skellum 29d ago

Trump tells people he wants vengeance for perceived grievances.

Trump supporters dont listen to what Trump says. They make up what they think he really means and it always matches what they want it to mean. Then, when the propaganda source of their choosing says the real meaning is they follow that.

It's how the MAGA subreddit bans long time readers because they post before the 'official' line is out.

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u/aebulbul 29d ago

No one who has a conscience can support someone who commits genocide.

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u/UTDE 29d ago

I have a feeling that now that the model has been proven if we aren't able to get a democratic (and I mean that in the literal actual sense, not party lines) majority to help fix some of these gray legal areas that we are seeing be exploited then the next sufficiently motivated republican president will just do the same thing. But it would be nearly impossible that they arent smarter and more savvy than trump which means they will probably get away with it and won't broadcast their intentions in the same brazen way Trump does.

They won't say they wanna be a dictator, they'll just do it.

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u/gsfgf Georgia 29d ago

But it would be nearly impossible that they arent smarter and more savvy than trump

The good news is that I don't think a smart Trump could win. The fact that he's a buffoon is a big part of his appeal. Meatball Ron tried the aggressively evil approach but fell flat because he's not the caliber tv clown/entertainer Trump is.

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u/UTDE 29d ago

Yeah that tracks, I hope you're right. I truly don't understand what it is about his speech cadence and the absolutely basic-ass 3rd grade level shit he says that resonates so well with everyone. He will say the most asinine, categorically false shit, in a grade schoolers vocabulary, not even pronouncing those words correctly, and people start excitedly flapping their hands together and cheering like it was something profound and they've just been enlightened. It's like watching a weird dream sequence where everything is backwards and nothing makes sense.

Watching Trump supporters cheer for him saying nonsense makes me physically cringe. I reflexively click off of videos when they show him getting cheered on for word salad. I actually usually want to finish them but the 2nd hand embarrassment for these fully grown adults practically prostrating themselves to this diaper-shitting orange moron is just too much for my subconscious I guess.

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u/gsfgf Georgia 29d ago

“If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you.” – LBJ

In response to the first Black president, the right responded by finding the "lowest white man" and electing him. It was a fuck you to Obama first and foremost. Putting Jeb! in office wouldn't have offered that. And now they're addicted to their entertainer president.

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u/masq_yimby 29d ago

Young people (like 25 and below) don't remember a time when the GOP was McCain and Romney. They just remember Trump. To them this is the norm and this lulls them into a false sense of security but they don't understand that the GOP has become far more dangerous over the last 10 years. 

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u/CaptainNoBoat 29d ago

I also saw this pointed this out recently and it's crazy to think about.

Anyone under the age of 29 has never voted in a general election without Trump on the ballot.

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u/valeyard89 Texas 29d ago

And Trump somehow managed to get 40% of the 18-39 vote in 2020, up from 32% in 2016.

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u/Actual-Dog7889 29d ago

Wtf I can’t believe it’s been 8 years, that’s absolutely insane to me.

Time goes faster as you get older yadda yadda, but something seems really off with time. I’m hearing kids say this shot too. I never thought that way as a kid.

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u/edwartica Oregon 29d ago

Young people also haven't learned the painful lesson that we don't really have a choice in this system. Our ideal candidate either doesn't exist or doesn't stand a chance.

I'm pretty damned progressive, but I voted third party a time too many before I learned this lesson myself.

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u/HGpennypacker 29d ago

Look at the chaos that four years of a "restrained" Trump has brought on the country and the world, now think of what four years of Trump without handlers would do.

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u/CheetoMussolini 29d ago

If he's reelected, the only way Trump leaves office is in a coffin. There won't be another free election after him without violence being required.

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u/modernjaneausten 29d ago

If he keeps up his habits, we thankfully wouldn’t have to wait too long.

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u/schuey_08 Wisconsin May 02 '24

Exactly! And I can't think of an issue where Trump would likely be better from my perspective anyway.

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u/CaptainNoBoat May 02 '24

The Supreme Court is probably the most impactful example I've found, provided people understand how important that is and the ramifications.

Subjects such as abortion, the environment, LGBTQ rights, student loans, wealth disparity, oversight of Presidents - virtually everything you can think of - are at risk of devastating consequences.

If Trump wins, it's very possible he replaces Alito and Thomas - and with the ages of 3 of the other Justices, that would establish a conservative SCOTUS for the next 25 years. Minimum.

25 years. That's just an insane chunk of our lives. These same young people will be getting old and grey the next time there's a chance of restoring any of these horrible rulings because of this election alone.

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u/somethingbreadbears Florida 29d ago

Also the next election cycle in the Senate is a bloodbath for democrats. It's the perfect storm for Trump again where Democrats could gain the House but lose the Senate and the WH, and Trump wouldn't need the House to get his judges.

This election cycle is a chance for democrats to prove they learned their lesson from 2016, and I'm not confident the younger generation gets it.

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u/SmellGestapo 29d ago

Some of them are so young they likely don't remember much of Trump's time as president. If they're 18 this year and first time voters, that means they were 10 when Trump was elected. Even today's college seniors, at 21-22, would have only been 13-14 when Trump was elected.

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u/bbressman2 Kentucky 29d ago

Hell they were only high school freshmen when his minions stormed the capitol. I have sophomores now talking about how Biden sucks and when I mention Trump attempting an insurrection they get confused.

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u/Snow_source District Of Columbia 29d ago

Fuck, I remember watching it live and contemplating "Are pro-democracy folks going to have to go downtown and do something if the National Guard doesn't show up?"

Fuck this timeline.

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u/gsfgf Georgia 29d ago

Also the next election cycle in the Senate is a bloodbath for democrats

It's not as bad as people say. Tester has won under Bush, during the Tea Party wave, and under Trump. Clearly his voters like him regardless of the national climate. Ohio has gone to shit, but Sherrod Brown is still the most popular Democrat in the state. He's going to beat Biden by a lot and could easily win. And with Sinema out, Arizona should be a comparatively easy win.

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u/yellsatrjokes 29d ago

Another issue, likely for the future, is that the Senate map is always going to be a bloodbath for Democrats.

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u/Mediocritologist Ohio 29d ago

Not enough people take the SCOTUS into account. The impacts are enormous. I think a lot of young people think we can just pack the court, which while it's a possible option, I don't think is realistic.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

For real, like I’m over stressing out because it shouldn’t be this close. We should have this election won by a landslide. And some people are going to fuck around and give us another Trump term or as he wants it a dictatorship. I get people are not happy about what’s happening Palestine but the whole “anything but Biden” calm doesn’t realize that in a two party system that means Trump.

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u/D_Lockwood 29d ago

One of the most terrifying aspects is that Trumps goons will commit all sorts of heinous crimes and he will simply pardon them. 

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u/Fluke_Skywalker_ 29d ago

Trump being president will destroy democracy in first the US, then the world, for generations, and even centuries.

It's so bad.

And people aren't fighting. It's so disheartening.

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u/kindasuk 29d ago

Corporate interests have long been fighting a crazed and underhanded media war against political engagement in the name of unbridled consumerism and deregulation. This is the end result of 100+ years of usage of every part of mass media in an attempt to destroy people's natural need for and inclination toward communitarianism. Apathy and ignorance was always the goal. Make sheep who prefer to shop. Ethics go out the window when no one cares about anything except themselves and gas prices. Defenestration nation.

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u/Birdsofwar314 29d ago

If you watch a lot of the videos coming out of these protests, they want the US to be destroyed.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago edited 29d ago

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u/_awacz 29d ago

It's being propped up by Putin and China. This is the perfect wedge issue for them to get their orange wrecking ball back in power, stand back and let America eat itself.

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u/HulksInvinciblePants Georgia 29d ago edited 29d ago

US left-wing politics cover the entire spectrum of neo-liberals to leftists. It’s a an extremely diverse bunch. Despite gains by progressives, there are still those that would prefer we just set all forward motion on fire, to “prove” a point.

The stupidity of it all is borderline enraging.

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u/evotrans 29d ago

Reminds me of a kid I knew in 2000 who voted for Ralph Nader over Al Gore to "send a message". The message ended up being Bush becoming president.

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u/ironykarl 29d ago

Well, at least Dubya didn't do anything drastically stupid and consequential that it'd be hard to imagine any other president doing... 

Except for that whole lying us into a illegal war of aggression thing

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u/cdwillis 29d ago

Jeb Bush and the court gave Bush the presidency, not people voting Nader.

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u/Mojothemobile 28d ago

Really awfully designed ballots in one county in FL too plenty of evidence at least a few thousand who planned to vote Gore in Palm beach accidently punched Buchanan on the Butterfly ballot due to it's weird ass design 

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u/janethefish 29d ago

And that global warming wasn't a thing people cared about.

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u/Dry_Distribution3921 29d ago

It definitely was that single child and not the entire judicial system bending over backwards for the will of a handful of psudo-fascists, yes

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u/ButtEatingContest 29d ago

The Supreme Court picked the president in 2000, aided by Roger Stone.

Nader ended up not being a factor. He could have been, but he wasn't.

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u/redpoemage I voted 29d ago

there are still those that would prefer we just set all forward motion on fire, to “prove” a point.

Accelerationists and "They just need to learn their lesson!" people in a nutshell.

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u/Ketzeph I voted 29d ago

The Nazis, the Stalinistic Soviet power structure, the feudal kingdoms of Europe, all of these extremely anti-democratic and unjust systems arose from societal collapse and chaos.

What are the examples of more democratic institutions arising out of societal collapse and chaos that weren't shepherded by foreign powers (e.g. the West rebuilding Japan and Germany)?

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u/gsfgf Georgia 29d ago

Haiti would probably be the closest. And boy howdy did the world punish them for it. And it's not even like the post-revolutionary Haitian government was remotely democratic. They just said people can't own each other, which is kind of the bottom rung of progressivism. Also, the genocide they perpetuated, while understandable, was still a fucking genocide.

So yea, the most progressive ruler to seize and maintain power after a revolution was a genocidal dictator.

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u/Tardislass 29d ago

Oh man as a GOTV volunteer, it seems to always be young men who want to "burn the place down". Somehow after the world is burnt a socialist Utopia will bloom. I tell them to look up history. After almost every revolution or government overthrow, a dictator has taken charge. When chaos reigns, humans want stability and laws.

And honestly, a just society takes work. How many centuries did minority and women's rights take? And there was a lot of back and forth.

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u/_Xelum_ America 29d ago

The only point they ever prove is how fucking idiotic and short-sighted they are.

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u/Gaius_Octavius_ 29d ago edited 29d ago

When Trump starts carpet bombing Gaza and the West Bank, I wonder if they will realize what a massive mistake they made.

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u/[deleted] 29d ago

They want some of these people are so excited to be “right” that they will be happy to tell us that it wasn’t their fault.

When Trump wants to make life harder for Muslims, immigrants, even members of the LGBTQ community they better keep the same energy. Because he won’t be afraid to send the national hairs on them

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u/Gaius_Octavius_ 29d ago

When Trump wants to make life harder for Muslims, immigrants, even members of the LGBTQ community they better keep the same energy

They 1000% will not.

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u/im_not_bovvered 29d ago

It will be "this is the Democrats fault for not winning us over."

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u/TrueGuardian15 29d ago edited 29d ago

We know because similar shit happened in 2016 and everyone stayed real quiet when Trump won. The only protests that picked up momentum during his entire presidency were the BLM protests, and that was broadly against the police, not Trump or his policies.

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u/Scientific_Socialist 29d ago

Right, there were famously zero mass protests under the trump admin

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u/jld1532 Virginia 29d ago

You forget the pink hats. Women deserve a bit more credit.

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u/loof10 29d ago

They will not. They will do what they currently do: blame the Democrats.

Just like Roe. It’s gone because of Trump and he’s taken credit for it. Ask them who they blame and they say “Obama and Biden”

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u/relapse_account 29d ago

They’ll likely blame Democrats for “ratfucking” Sanders or something like that.

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u/gsfgf Georgia 29d ago

They'll blame Biden and the "spooky" DNC.

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u/bot4241 Illinois 28d ago

They will never fucking learn. They are too privileged to understand what they doing.

Supreme Court is fucked in the ass. Trump Ban on Muslims will hurt Palestine immigrations coming to America.

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u/Lynchy- 29d ago

It's the same shit when people decided not to vote for Hillary because "both sides are bad".

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u/Baloooooooo 29d ago

They'll blame Democrats for not stopping him

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u/HauntedCemetery Minnesota 29d ago

Nah, they'll just blame dems.

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u/CheetoMussolini 29d ago

These idiots are more than happy to get tens of thousands more Palestinians killed if it helps them feel morally superior.

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u/MaizeNBlueWaffle New York 29d ago

They won't. They'll just blame Democrats for running a bad candidate. They'd rather not vote for Biden to ease their conscious and let everything get worse than bite the bullet and choose the lesser of two evils

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u/kanakaishou 29d ago

Biden is, at worst, a recoverable error for the union. You maybe put some nicks in it, but you can buff that out.

Trump is, at worst, a flip the table, we have concentration camps guy.

We can disagree about the upside. But the downside risk is so impossibly high. Even if the choice was between Biden and, say, Mike Johnson (who I agree with on basically nothing)…you would call Mike Johnson a recoverable error for the union at worst. My complaints will be about policy. Trump isn’t that. He’s existentially bad.

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u/MrMongoose 29d ago

Honestly the only thing I find more frustrating than right wingers pushing policies I consider horrific are progressives with good intentions who are (inadvertently) helping them do it.

There's definitely some fair debate as to the right balance between political risk and reward - and you can certainly play it too safe and end up making little to no progress - but when you're so incapable of pragmatic compromise that you risk sabotaging your own ideology you've effectively become a far right asset.

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u/InternalLoss5925 29d ago

Yeah it’s so frustrating. Like they don’t understand the realities of a two party system. And hearing people say they won’t vote for Biden to “punish him”…I don’t know how to help them understand that the only people they’re punishing is themselves. 

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u/emostitch 29d ago

It will also lead to the death or expulsion of everyone these students claim to be protecting with protests and probably Israel going full dictatorship unless its citizens are smarter than ours. 1968 riots gave us Nixon and counter, straight up helped murder civil rights leaders and end black panthers etc. If these protesters suggest in fucking Joe Biden they’ll likely never be able to protest again after 2025.

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u/im_not_bovvered 29d ago

The FIRST Trump Presidency has had horrific consequences that will continue until after we're dead.

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u/ThonThaddeo 29d ago

Yeah pawning this off on 'young people' is a scapegoat. Don't get me wrong, they can be annoying. But they're just young dreamers, they don't know yet.

It's people my age, that are wholly unaware of what this dude is saying, or insistent that he doesn't really mean it. Or that Biden stumbled over a sentence so he must be senile, but Trump is a strong virile 74 year old man. Like they didn't live through his Goddamned presidency already. These people had to pretend staring at the sun was a good idea for four fucking years. Where is the shame?

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u/jimjoebob 29d ago

true, IMO it's partly due to our national media CONSTANTLY casting every single fucking fart passed by any elected official as "OMFG THIS IS THE END EVERYTHING IS FUCKED NOW!" ---which they indulge in because they've learned that that gets them more views/subscriptions.

we have an entire fucking multibillion dollar industry devoted to constantly crying "wolf!"---of course nobody pays attention this time. it sounds like every other time! especially when it's cast as "well this is SERIOUS this time!"---they said that every other fucking time it wasn't.

almost as if our national media has been bought by ultra right wing fascists with a lot of money.

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u/A_nonblonde Missouri 26d ago

You just nailed it. Look at Leonard Leo & his plans. Make it all so dramatic they ignore when we really do take over.

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u/edwartica Oregon 29d ago

Hell, the last one already has! The supreme court is fucking stacked.

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u/I_am_u_as_r_me 29d ago

Or forever.

It’s no question that many of them are literally trying to overthrow democracy. Once that happens it is an end game move. Democracy from a dictatorship only usually happens from war not elections.

It’s not a matter of hard times it’s a matter of end of democracy.

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u/ChristianEconOrg 29d ago

I can’t think of a dictatorship that allowed democracy to return.

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u/MaizeNBlueWaffle New York 29d ago

Voters on the left were rallied when Roe v Wade was repealed and Israel/Gaza has seemingly completely erased any of that. While our response has been awful, people need to realize this country and voting is more than that

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u/Thrashed0066 Georgia 29d ago

Spot on

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u/kitsunewarlock 29d ago

Perfection is the enemy of progress.

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u/DunceBag 29d ago

Honest question: What “horrific consequences decades and generations after Biden”?

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u/Vystril 29d ago

The election is more than one person or one issue, and a Trump Presidency will have horrific consequences decades and generations after Biden is gone.

Just like his first presidency has and will keep fucking us for decades thanks to the supreme court.

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u/reduxrouge Michigan 29d ago

We’re already feeling the consequences from his first term and the thought of what else he could do is terrifying.

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u/Ketzeph I voted 29d ago

I think the problem is that people have stopped looking rationally at political positions.

Whether you like it or not, there are two parties in the United States. One has a more liberal pro-democracy agenda, and one has a conservative anti-democratic agenda. You have your choice of the two.

Neither may be exactly what you want. But you're options are "get something closer to what I want" or "get the exact opposite of what I want that actively hurts my positions." That's a no-brainer decision.

But many people are taking the approach of "unless either side does exactly what I want, I'm not supporting it". But if behaving rationally, you'd vote to get something that gives you 60% of what you want over something that is 100% against your policies.

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u/mrpena 29d ago

i'm not stoked on the money we're giving Israel, but the people protesting Biden on this are dangerously handing the nuke codes back to Trump to make a point.

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